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 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have come to grips with that a long time ago. In fact, I think it kind of cool. I will also not comment on rumors that I am a borg as they are completely unfounded.

I dont think the Hive Mind works like a human mind does. I think it is very reptilian in nature.

Probably because it seems there are not similar beings to relate with. The human mind is quite "reptilian" in many senses, but it has more... layers of abstraction because it need to relate with other similar minds (all of them created by the collective will of the neurons, moving the hive fleet that is the body).

Perhaps there are many Hive Minds and, if two of them meet, they fight or mate depending of the gender of each one.

And after all of the hive fleets have met and fought , the perfect tyranid shall be created through galactic scale Darwinism

He can do calculus no problem, he just laughs at trigonometry and gets offended if you ask him to do a simultaneous equation.

Word on the street is, though, that his French grammar is pretty shaky and he can never remember whether Oslo is the capital of Norway or Sweden.

I cannot say how "intelligent" the hive mind but we can glimpse as to how long living and how many worlds it has seen and devoured.

My fellow Dakka-ites, I would like to direct you to the book called "Heart of Rage." In the book a adept from the Magos Biologus goes into a dormant hive ship and is.....no spoilers.

Safe to say this adept "learns" how learned, in terms of the galaxy, the hive mind truly is. As he says to a certain extent "far outstrips" their own knowledge.

Kuroko1985 wrote:
I cannot say how "intelligent" the hive mind but we can glimpse as to how long living and how many worlds it has seen and devoured.

My fellow Dakka-ites, I would like to direct you to the book called "Heart of Rage." In the book a adept from the Magos Biologus goes into a dormant hive ship and is.....no spoilers.

Safe to say this adept "learns" how learned, in terms of the galaxy, the hive mind truly is. As he says to a certain extent "far outstrips" their own knowledge.

This is interesting, care to expand? Spoiler tag it if you like, but I'm curious about what this one has to say about the age of the Hive Ship and any other information.

The advantage of organisms over machines is generally their self sufficiency. Hence why some soldiers on long range operations might use a horse instead of a car.

You can construct a thousand guns by hand, but you still need to produce their bullets, design/train operators, maintain and replace components. By contrast, you could infect one person with a bacterium, which will reproduce and sustain itself without outside influence, spreading throughout the population and killing all of your enemies. Basically, genestealers operate in this way, permeating and weakening it's target population. A wolf in the wild will care for itself and remain a dangerous foe, a machine/robot capable of the same thing will require much more up front investment of resources and programming while being unable to produce more of itself.

Xyptc wrote:

Kuroko1985 wrote:
I cannot say how "intelligent" the hive mind but we can glimpse as to how long living and how many worlds it has seen and devoured.

My fellow Dakka-ites, I would like to direct you to the book called "Heart of Rage." In the book a adept from the Magos Biologus goes into a dormant hive ship and is.....no spoilers.

Safe to say this adept "learns" how learned, in terms of the galaxy, the hive mind truly is. As he says to a certain extent "far outstrips" their own knowledge.

This is interesting, care to expand? Spoiler tag it if you like, but I'm curious about what this one has to say about the age of the Hive Ship and any other information.

+1

+2

From the OP

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

Isn't the whole idea of the remaining Kraken's splinter fleets to be small fleets that focus on easy targets?

 Tyran wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

Isn't the whole idea of the remaining Kraken's splinter fleets to be small fleets that focus on easy targets?

It is.

The strategy is to destroy the support links that make those worlds such tough nuts to crack so that when the time comes down to it, it can go back and munch on a half defeated world.

 Tyran wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not with the resources the Hive Mind has. Besides, if it really concentrate its forces there they could easily block out psychic communications and warp travel. Maybe even darken the Astronomicon which would severaly weaken the Imperium. Overwhelming application of force is what the Tyranids do best.

I have yet to see any evidence of it bypassing a fortified planet to snack on a less well defended neighbor.

Isn't the whole idea of the remaining Kraken's splinter fleets to be small fleets that focus on easy targets?

I'll reread my Nid codex tonight when I get home, but I got the impression the Kraken splinter fleets were aimless. Nothing to suggest they were attacking targets in coordination with one another for a greater purpose with an eventual reunion. I got more of the idea of a scattered pride of lions---each by itself is still dangerous, but not as dangerous as when they hunt the same prey together.

[EDIT] From the Wiki http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Kraken

The scattered remnants of the Tyranid attack on Ichar IV fled towards the galactic core, driving within the Imperial defence perimeters that had been erected against Hive Fleet Kraken. These splinter fleets became an even greater threat to the Imperium as they fed upon unsuspecting and poorly defended worlds far from the main Tyrannic war zones in the Eastern Fringes of the galaxy. Running battles with these Kraken splinter fleets continued for many years after the Hive Fleet's passage, draining Imperial defences against later Tyranid incursions. It is doubtful if the true extent of the devastation wrought by the Kraken will ever be known to the Adepts of the Administratum.

The splinter fleets are comprised by as few as a dozen Hive Ships, but even a dozen of these living vessels are more than capable of overrunning a human world and harvesting its biomass so that it may become an even greater threat. Some Kraken splinter fleets have become so large throught this method as to be classified by the Imperium as a new, distinct Hive Fleet of its own. Indeed, Hive Fleet Magalodon grew from one of the splinters of the Kraken and continues to ravage portions of the Imperium in the present.

So the initial Kraken attack was on a broad front that narrowed to two decisive points (Ichar IV & Iyanden). Once those two climatic battles ended, the splinter fleets scattered in all directions. Some ran into more well defended planets and were defeated, others found undefended planets and consumed them to slowly become hive fleets in their own right. Still nothing to indicate that the splinters fleets are operating in a coordinated fashion as part of a greater strategic purpose. You could argue that tying down defenders and draining resources is purpose enough, except than you'd also expect to see coordination between the splinter fleets and the follow on attack made by Leviathan. But none of that exists. Especially considering how Leviathan has been diverted out of Imperium of Man space into orcish territory. I'd defintely still argue that the Hive Mind does not practice strategy as we know it. It does not recognize political entities as such. It is a predator and considers every inhabitant of the Milky Way to be its prey.

PanzerLeader wrote:
I'd defintely still argue that the Hive Mind does not practice strategy as we know it. It does not recognize political entities as such. It is a predator and considers every inhabitant of the Milky Way to be its prey.

Yes and no. The Hive Mind doesn't really care for political entities and do view everyone as prey. (except demons and necrons) But It understands it anyway. Deathleaper made sure to kill everyone that was in contact with Cardinal Salem while leaving him alive. Since he was at it's mercy several times, it's on purpose. Same could be said of genestealers. They hide in ships until it reaches a planet. If they only saw everything as prey, they'd just kill everyone as soon as they are on the ship. Instead, they know to stay hidden until they reach somewhere with a lot more potential victims to infect.

Addaran wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I'd defintely still argue that the Hive Mind does not practice strategy as we know it. It does not recognize political entities as such. It is a predator and considers every inhabitant of the Milky Way to be its prey.

Yes and no. The Hive Mind doesn't really care for political entities and do view everyone as prey. (except demons and necrons) But It understands it anyway. Deathleaper made sure to kill everyone that was in contact with Cardinal Salem while leaving him alive. Since he was at it's mercy several times, it's on purpose. Same could be said of genestealers. They hide in ships until it reaches a planet. If they only saw everything as prey, they'd just kill everyone as soon as they are on the ship. Instead, they know to stay hidden until they reach somewhere with a lot more potential victims to infect.

I think my professional view point slants me to seeing that as the operational/tactical levels of war and not strategy. The conquest of a single planet is an operational campaign. It can be described in a series of tactical engagements designed to lead to a specific outcome. Take death leaper for instance. The predator conducted an estimate of the prey's strengths and weaknesses, identified the lynchpin and through a series of engagements weakend and then removed the lynchpin (terror attacks + assassination) to set conditions for the next tactical engagement (invasion) to achieve operational goal (consumption of planet). In the 40K scale, I'd assume the strategic level of war to be the linkage of operational effects across systems and sectors. How does Behemoth's invasion link to Kraken link to Leviathan? How are the splinter fleets shaping the fight for Leviathan? What is the target of the grand strategy? It doesn't look like the Tyranids really care if they are consuming orcs, tau, humans or eldar. If the Hive Mind is really practicing grand strategy, why is it attacking the inhabitants piece meal? Why is it not focusing on destroying one threat at a time to eliminate competition or focusing its attacks on weak points? Kraken achieved massive success and almost broke through the defences---why not reinforce the effort with Leviathan? So I tend to go back to the Hive Mind being strategically inept, but the consumate master of the tactical level of war.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Addaran wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I'd defintely still argue that the Hive Mind does not practice strategy as we know it. It does not recognize political entities as such. It is a predator and considers every inhabitant of the Milky Way to be its prey.

Yes and no. The Hive Mind doesn't really care for political entities and do view everyone as prey. (except demons and necrons) But It understands it anyway. Deathleaper made sure to kill everyone that was in contact with Cardinal Salem while leaving him alive. Since he was at it's mercy several times, it's on purpose. Same could be said of genestealers. They hide in ships until it reaches a planet. If they only saw everything as prey, they'd just kill everyone as soon as they are on the ship. Instead, they know to stay hidden until they reach somewhere with a lot more potential victims to infect.

I think my professional view point slants me to seeing that as the operational/tactical levels of war and not strategy. The conquest of a single planet is an operational campaign. It can be described in a series of tactical engagements designed to lead to a specific outcome. Take death leaper for instance. The predator conducted an estimate of the prey's strengths and weaknesses, identified the lynchpin and through a series of engagements weakend and then removed the lynchpin (terror attacks + assassination) to set conditions for the next tactical engagement (invasion) to achieve operational goal (consumption of planet). In the 40K scale, I'd assume the strategic level of war to be the linkage of operational effects across systems and sectors. How does Behemoth's invasion link to Kraken link to Leviathan? How are the splinter fleets shaping the fight for Leviathan? What is the target of the grand strategy? It doesn't look like the Tyranids really care if they are consuming orcs, tau, humans or eldar. If the Hive Mind is really practicing grand strategy, why is it attacking the inhabitants piece meal? Why is it not focusing on destroying one threat at a time to eliminate competition or focusing its attacks on weak points? Kraken achieved massive success and almost broke through the defences---why not reinforce the effort with Leviathan? So I tend to go back to the Hive Mind being strategically inept, but the consumate master of the tactical level of war.

I didn't really make difference for strategy and tactic. It's probably a lot more important for someone in the profession.

I think Tyranid just doesn't care for his Hive Fleets. It's number might be so big that even full Hive Fleets are just a fraction of himself. Kinda like the Emperium won't care for a few millions IG. They are expendable. (and anyway, most of the dead Tyranids can be eaten in the futur, when another Hive Fleet pass by.)

Focusing on one thread at the time isn't really possible for two reasons. 1) They won't go unnoticed. Even if they just cherry pick Eldars( for exemple) Orks will want to fight them, chaos will stop them for stealing the souls they want, Necrons for stealing slaves and worlds and Emperium for 9000 reasons. Same way pretty much the all factions fight most of the other factions. 2) They don't warp travel or use the web-way. So no "teleportation" they have go do all the way. (the only way they can do it, was with bioships that destroy planets it pass near, so wasted food.) If not, they could just pop 2-3 Hive Fleets on Terra and check mate the galaxy.

In a way, the Hive Fleets not working together seems to be a strategy. They are all independant, so even if you beat one, it doesn't hinder the "plans" of the other. And then, the other Hive Fleets have learned a counter. (one thing to support that is the Swarmlord, apparently he's been with different Hive Fleets)

PanzerLeader wrote:

I just remembered about that last Cain book when he faced nids, the Tyranids retreated when it was obvious that they could not win against the defenses (thanks to a deux ex machina).
And also they ignore well defended tombworlds.

Mmm yeah probably you are right. But the Tyranids definitively ignore targets when they are to tough, probably in the same way a lion will never attack an adult elephant.

I guess it helps the Nids that each fleet is self sufficient, so there aren't any logistical issues.

Is a swarm of a million ants stupid?

I have it on good authority that ant-swarms are really into professional wrestling and Ancient Aliens so... probably really stupid.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Is a swarm of a million ants stupid?

Relevance? In terms of applying grand strategy to solving complex political-military problems, I'd say so. Here is one of the relevant links: http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/p.bentley/teaching/L8_Swarms_and_ACO.pdf

As someone else mentioned above, each hive fleet is fully independant. A hive fleet much more clearly resembles swarm behavior in terms of organization and priorities than anything resembling a modern nation-state or other politically organized body. If the hive fleet were politically organized or cared about such concerns, it very easily could have massed its considerable resources from the three main Tyrnannic wars into a single segmentum instead of the wide dispersion it took and probably overwhelmed the Tau Empire in its entirety and finished off Ultramar with successive waves from Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan and still be in a good position to continue expansion into the milky way. So why wouldn't they mass military forces? Because they don't care about political goals like conquest of territory or establishing an empire. Tyranids just want to eat and to eat in the most efficient manner. Subopitmal food worlds (like a tomb world with no significant biomass) would be bypassed as inefficient sources of food.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Is a swarm of a million ants stupid?

Relevance? In terms of applying grand strategy to solving complex political-military problems, I'd say so. Here is one of the relevant links: http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/p.bentley/teaching/L8_Swarms_and_ACO.pdf

As someone else mentioned above, each hive fleet is fully independant. A hive fleet much more clearly resembles swarm behavior in terms of organization and priorities than anything resembling a modern nation-state or other politically organized body. If the hive fleet were politically organized or cared about such concerns, it very easily could have massed its considerable resources from the three main Tyrnannic wars into a single segmentum instead of the wide dispersion it took and probably overwhelmed the Tau Empire in its entirety and finished off Ultramar with successive waves from Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan and still be in a good position to continue expansion into the milky way. So why wouldn't they mass military forces? Because they don't care about political goals like conquest of territory or establishing an empire. Tyranids just want to eat and to eat in the most efficient manner. Subopitmal food worlds (like a tomb world with no significant biomass) would be bypassed as inefficient sources of food.

If they just made one huge army, it would open up the chance to be destroyed in one shot though. Behemoth got mostly destroyed when it was caught between two Imperial Battlefleets. Something like that crazy magos trying to make a plague that target specifically Tyranids or to mind control the Hive Fleet could work, and then Tyranids would be game over. Also, the Emperium is probably crazy enough to just mass exterminatus half the galaxy just to avoid losing. I'm sure there is some WMD in WH40K so powerfull that no faction can resist.

Addaran wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Is a swarm of a million ants stupid?

Relevance? In terms of applying grand strategy to solving complex political-military problems, I'd say so. Here is one of the relevant links: http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/p.bentley/teaching/L8_Swarms_and_ACO.pdf

As someone else mentioned above, each hive fleet is fully independant. A hive fleet much more clearly resembles swarm behavior in terms of organization and priorities than anything resembling a modern nation-state or other politically organized body. If the hive fleet were politically organized or cared about such concerns, it very easily could have massed its considerable resources from the three main Tyrnannic wars into a single segmentum instead of the wide dispersion it took and probably overwhelmed the Tau Empire in its entirety and finished off Ultramar with successive waves from Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan and still be in a good position to continue expansion into the milky way. So why wouldn't they mass military forces? Because they don't care about political goals like conquest of territory or establishing an empire. Tyranids just want to eat and to eat in the most efficient manner. Subopitmal food worlds (like a tomb world with no significant biomass) would be bypassed as inefficient sources of food.

If they just made one huge army, it would open up the chance to be destroyed in one shot though. Behemoth got mostly destroyed when it was caught between two Imperial Battlefleets. Something like that crazy magos trying to make a plague that target specifically Tyranids or to mind control the Hive Fleet could work, and then Tyranids would be game over. Also, the Emperium is probably crazy enough to just mass exterminatus half the galaxy just to avoid losing. I'm sure there is some WMD in WH40K so powerfull that no faction can resist.

If the entire Tyranid race gathered in one force, the Necrons would use that opportunity to detonate a few key stars/other galactic phenomena using the Celestial Orrery and just end them. Then the Necrons officially win 40K, period.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

If the entire Tyranid race gathered in one force, the Necrons would use that opportunity to detonate a few key stars/other galactic phenomena using the Celestial Orrery and just end them. Then the Necrons officially win 40K, period.

We don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. If it is just a signal of some kind that is it sent it could theoretically be intercepted. If it orders a spaceship to be dispatched it could be destroyed. It could take a long time for the star to turn supernova; the description of it is intentionally vague (causing a star to turn supernova millennia before its time). It's entirely possible that it is not simply an unstoppable device.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

If the entire Tyranid race gathered in one force, the Necrons would use that opportunity to detonate a few key stars/other galactic phenomena using the Celestial Orrery and just end them. Then the Necrons officially win 40K, period.

We don't know how the Celestial Orrery works. If it is just a signal of some kind that is it sent it could theoretically be intercepted. If it orders a spaceship to be dispatched it could be destroyed. It could take a long time for the star to turn supernova; the description of it is intentionally vague (causing a star to turn supernova millennia before its time). It's entirely possible that it is not simply an unstoppable device.

It was invented by the same guy who gave us Draigo and Orikan the time lord.

It probably is unstoppable.

 Kain wrote:

It was invented by the same guy who gave us Draigo and Orikan the time lord.

It probably is unstoppable.

Hah, forgot about Orikan. Wonder what his weaknesses are.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

It was invented by the same guy who gave us Draigo and Orikan the time lord.

It probably is unstoppable.

Hah, forgot about Orikan. Wonder what his weaknesses are.

His ego.

The Swarmlord is a tactical genius to rival even Roboute Guilliman.

The Hive Mind is smarter.

Going with it controls the entire Tyranid race, It's intelligence is likely beyond what anyone can comprehend.