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Hey Guys,

I have been playing guards for a while now and I have always loved my vets....that being said, I love the new tempestus scion models but just can't figure out why would I picke them over vets....

From what I can see, they are cheaper and can get the same job done....Am I missing something? Yes when taken as allies they have cool orders but they still cost a lot....

Just to get things straight, I would love to buy some, I love the models, I don't even mind buying some Taurox prime...but The last thing I want is more models gathering dust on the shelves....

Help me find out how they can be usefull because right now, I don't see it and I have not seen any battle report that can convince me to take some?

Tks

P.S: Sorry for the bad english, not my first language...

Veterans are good delivery system for their Special Weapons.
With the reduced fire points of a chimera, that third weapon can be a bit of a waste.

Stormtroopers Scions come with an AP3 lasgun, that can now benefit from orders, on top of their Special Weapons.
They also have the option to Deepstrike. 5man suicide squads dropping in with x2 meltaguns is always fun.

What was just said. Although both units are usually just taken for the special weapon options, Stormtroopers (Scions) have AP3 base guns, which could be handy. Deepstrike is the big difference as it has always been the premier option for delivering plasma and melta onto targets. I take scions to fill that deep striking role at backfield units (especially vehicles) or to take out high priority targets before they are reaching my main force.

Note that while vets can take 3 specials but are limited to firing 2 out of a vehicle (not many people will be footslogging them up the board) your 2nd scion unit in an army can be a scion command squad, paying a bit more base but taking up to 4 specials, with the built in ability to order itself - pinning, split fire, precision shots, shoot + run can all be very useful on the turn you drop in.

As noted, they come with Deep Strike and get AP3.

That said, also as noted, they're like twice the price of vets and can't hold objectives. Also their AP3 guns are S3 with only an 18" range and are Rapid Fire type, meaning they're largely useless.

I'd just use them as Carapace vets, if worst comes to worst, cut off the cables for the guns (also makes them easier to put together) and they no longer look like they're really specially armed then.

The Taurox Prime and being able to take them is also a consideration. The Taurox Prime is a surprisingly punchy vehicle and while the enemy may well target them, I foresee their suefulness as insertion vehicles being worth it. When forced to choose between the Stormtroopers or the Taurox Prime for example as targets it isn't as clear cut as the enemy would like and I can see some surviving to do more than their share of damage.

The Prime is also 80pts. For AV11. It can also be up to 100pts, but regardless of the gun on it, its still 80+pts for an easily dismantled tank.

You have to factor in the cost of veteran special weapons when comparing their cost to scions. Also, I can't imagine taking scions without the hotshot volley gun. Against elite infantry, two hot shot volley guns can deliver 8 S4 Ap3 shots at 24". Which will wreck marines, Tau, Necron, anything with 3+/4+ saves.

I will probably avoid deep striking them, since they're better at anti infantry.

Keep in mind that for vets to work you're often needing a ride to get them there, or upgrades to keep them alive on the defense.

A vet squad with a chimera and special weapons will often run the same as a full stormtrooper squad that can just deepstrike in.

If I get back in, I plan on running my stormtroopers as allies and using them to grab backfield objectives.

I honestly plan on using vets and stormtroopers together. They're both good units, they just have slightly different roles. Neither of them are "bad" at all though.

Another little thing, is that taking stormtrooper platoons in the AM book can get you more command squads without having to buy an entire platoon or using HQ slots for command teams. A couple of stormtrooper "platoons" with a single squad and a command squad could be a good way for an infantry army to get access to more orders if they really needed them.

 TheSilo wrote:
You have to factor in the cost of veteran special weapons when comparing their cost to scions. Also, I can't imagine taking scions without the hotshot volley gun. Against elite infantry, two hot shot volley guns can deliver 8 S4 Ap3 shots at 24". Which will wreck marines, Tau, Necron, anything with 3+/4+ saves.

I will probably avoid deep striking them, since they're better at anti infantry.

I have to admit that the hotshot volley guns are tempting....

You guys are making very good points, I am not convinced at all about the Taurox prime because of their cost which is a shame because a fast transport could be really nice....

Guess that starting with a squad of 10 and a command squad could be a good way to start....

Scions seem pretty bang-up good for DSing and backfield threats. Combo with servo-skulls or locator beacon array things on IG vehicles to help with your drop, using Regimental Advisers to all but guarantee their drop. Once boots hit dirt, start dishing out MT (and I really only see taking them from MT) orders. Command Squad +2 Scion Groups should be able to bring down just about whatever they're aiming at with proper orders.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Scions seem pretty bang-up good for DSing and backfield threats. Combo with servo-skulls or locator beacon array things on IG vehicles to help with your drop, using Regimental Advisers to all but guarantee their drop. Once boots hit dirt, start dishing out MT (and I really only see taking them from MT) orders. Command Squad +2 Scion Groups should be able to bring down just about whatever they're aiming at with proper orders.

I agree that the MT orders are quite good IMO....I just wish that the command squad could give at least two orders not one...

The two of them certainly did get a lot closer, which is a shame. With old stormies, the classic answer was you gave up an extra special weapon for their special mission rule, but since they've lost it...

Ironically, one of the reasons you now take stormies is because they're more like a troops choice than vets. Yes, yes, they don't score, but you can take them in platoons now, which means you can run a foot horde of them (105 without allies), while you're capped at a maximum of 60 vets.

Tragically, though, there is a lot less reason to take them. Compare 8.5 points a model to 14 points a model, and you've got 5.5 points that's got to cover deepstriking without special accuracy as well as hellguns. That's kind of a tough sell.

Though undoubtedly better if you want to take a stormtrooper spam army. Welcome back, drop troops guard.

That price tag is pretty brutal.

Wow, and I actually just realised that, thanks to platoons, you can take more stormies through the guard codex than you can through tempestus, or tempestus allied with guard.

Crazy.

35 Storm Troopers per slot in Astra Militarum.

On a side note. With the scion platoon when you roll for your reserves, do you make individual rolls for each squad? or count the whole platoon for one reserve? The wife and I cant decide which it is. if its one roll for the whole platoon that really ups their lethality IMO.

If they're anything like infantry platoons its just one roll to the whole shebang.

One other thing that needs mentioning is that scions have move through cover. This means they autopass dangerous terrain checks. This means they can deepstrike or airdrop with a lot less consequences. They lost the reroll to scatter unfortunately but at least its something.

Astra Militarum Scion platoons do not have the mob rule. So they are essentially up to 3+command group units, taking up one slot.

Only just noticed that, unlike an Infantry Platoon, the command squad isn't compulsory.

 McGibs wrote:
If they're anything like infantry platoons its just one roll to the whole shebang.

One other thing that needs mentioning is that scions have move through cover. This means they autopass dangerous terrain checks. This means they can deepstrike or airdrop with a lot less consequences. They lost the reroll to scatter unfortunately but at least its something.

Did not realize that they could auto-pass dangerous terrain. That's quite a benefit.

 Ir0njack wrote:
On a side note. With the scion platoon when you roll for your reserves, do you make individual rolls for each squad? or count the whole platoon for one reserve?

No.

The old guard codex used to have a rule for infantry platoons about them all sharing a reserve roll. This rule doesn't exist now, for any unit in the guard codex. They're all just their own units now, rolled for individually.

McGibs wrote:One other thing that needs mentioning is that scions have move through cover. This means they autopass dangerous terrain checks. This means they can deepstrike or airdrop with a lot less consequences. They lost the reroll to scatter unfortunately but at least its something.

True, but they still mishap.

I'd rather have the old reroll to scatter than loss of dangerous terrain any day.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As noted, they come with Deep Strike and get AP3.

That said, also as noted, they're like twice the price of vets and can't hold objectives. Also their AP3 guns are S3 with only an 18" range and are Rapid Fire type, meaning they're largely useless.

I'd just use them as Carapace vets, if worst comes to worst, cut off the cables for the guns (also makes them easier to put together) and they no longer look like they're really specially armed then.

They're far from useless, that's way too large of an extreme.

Scions are good for exactly what the old name said on the tin, and that's storming positions with elite bodies using the deepstrike USR and having special weapon units marauding behind the lines. If you use them like Vets then you're doing it wrong. Having 20-30 of them drop in around a mid-field objective or small expendable teams deepstriking near vehicles/MC's/emerging threats to pump them with scalpel-like fire is how I'd use them.

If you have issues with deep strike accuracy grab an Inquisitor and a bunch of Servo Skulls.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As noted, they come with Deep Strike and get AP3.

That said, also as noted, they're like twice the price of vets and can't hold objectives. Also their AP3 guns are S3 with only an 18" range and are Rapid Fire type, meaning they're largely useless.

I'd just use them as Carapace vets, if worst comes to worst, cut off the cables for the guns (also makes them easier to put together) and they no longer look like they're really specially armed then.

They're far from useless, that's way too large of an extreme.

Scions are good for exactly what the old name said on the tin, and that's storming positions with elite bodies using the deepstrike USR and having special weapon units marauding behind the lines. If you use them like Vets then you're doing it wrong. Having 20-30 of them drop in around a mid-field objective or small expendable teams deepstriking near vehicles/MC's/emerging threats to pump them with scalpel-like fire is how I'd use them.

If you have issues with deep strike accuracy grab an Inquisitor and a bunch of Servo Skulls.

Which has always bothered me. The enemy gets within 6in. of that servo skull and it goes away. There's a good chance the opposing force could do that before you drop in. Seems risky to rely on them too heavily.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As noted, they come with Deep Strike and get AP3.

That said, also as noted, they're like twice the price of vets and can't hold objectives. Also their AP3 guns are S3 with only an 18" range and are Rapid Fire type, meaning they're largely useless.

I'd just use them as Carapace vets, if worst comes to worst, cut off the cables for the guns (also makes them easier to put together) and they no longer look like they're really specially armed then.

They're far from useless, that's way too large of an extreme.

Scions are good for exactly what the old name said on the tin, and that's storming positions with elite bodies using the deepstrike USR and having special weapon units marauding behind the lines. If you use them like Vets then you're doing it wrong. Having 20-30 of them drop in around a mid-field objective or small expendable teams deepstriking near vehicles/MC's/emerging threats to pump them with scalpel-like fire is how I'd use them.

If you have issues with deep strike accuracy grab an Inquisitor and a bunch of Servo Skulls.

Which has always bothered me. The enemy gets within 6in. of that servo skull and it goes away. There's a good chance the opposing force could do that before you drop in. Seems risky to rely on them too heavily.

You can probably afford to put one of them in a risky position that would force your opponent to make a move on it, which is a pretty good thing, and put the other 2 in safer positions where they can advance on the enemy if you're using greater than usual numbers of Scions. Unless your opponent has Eldar Jetbikes (normal Bikers alpha strike can be compensated for with that 24'' potential move and Servo Skulls deny Scout moves) you should reliably be able to keep at least 1 of the Skulls operational by the time the Scions drop.

Reason being Eldar Jetbikes have a 48'' potential move in a turn which is a bit of a pain, but on the bright side if they're the Eldar cheap scoring variant then they're out of the way, and if they're a killy larger squadron you're forcing them to play a considerably points sized unit to where you want.

The other solution is to take a pair of Inquisitors to double the number of Servo Skulls you have, I guess. I think the best part about the entire strategy is that its grounded in fluff.

The problem with servo skulls isn't only that they're super fragile, but you can't even deploy them where you'd really want to have them in the first place - in your opponent's deployment zone.

Servo skulls are useful, but they're unlikely to be useful for this.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem with servo skulls isn't only that they're super fragile, but you can't even deploy them where you'd really want to have them in the first place - in your opponent's deployment zone.

Servo skulls are useful, but they're unlikely to be useful for this.

1) You can place them right outside it and exploit the 12'' range on the 1D6 scatter buff.

2) With an assisting Scion Command, you can give MMM! or FFTE! to gain ground

3) You won't always want to get to the deployment zone, since against aggressive, or partially aggressive armies (which is basically almost every Marine/Sister/Necron/Ork/Tyranid army at the very least) you can play a reactionary game.

4) If you're playing massed scions/above average count Scions then the plan is to not have your Scions survive 1 turn anyway.

Mr.Omega wrote:1) You can place them right outside it and exploit the 12'' range on the 1D6 scatter buff.

And they're guaranteed to disappear before you have a chance to make them useful.

I'd rather drop melticide units by dropping them as melticide units, rather than getting to land with a high degree of precision in a location that is badly out of position. Meanwhile, if I'm not dropping them in for a suicide mission, then I'm not going to be dropping themselves basically on top of something, which means that them scattering about a bit more less of an issue.

In any case, scatterless deepstrike that you're not going to get to use next to your opponent, and regular deepstrike otherwise isn't as good as being able to reroll the scatter dice, but do it anywhere on the board.

I made a list with Augur Array hellhounds for to deepstrike with precision.

Also, Enginseers with 2x Plasma Cannon servitors receiving the Fire on my Target order were dirty last game.