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Eldar 1500pt list, mostly mechanized but the Striking Scorpions and Rangers will probably opt to infiltrate instead of going in a Falcon. The Autarch is a bit over the top, but so's the model, so I figure the upgrades ought to match. Let me know what you think!

Eldar 1499 wrote:+++HQ+++

Autarch (Total: 150pts)
-Jetbike
-Fusion Gun
-Firesabre
-The Phoenix Gem

+++ELITES+++

Fire Dragons [X6] (Total: 167pts)
-Exarch
-Firepike
-Fast Shot

Striking Scorpions [X6] (Total: 147pts)
-Exarch
-Scorpion's Claw
-Monster Hunter

+++TROOPS+++

Windrider Jetbike Squadron [X5] (Total: 95pts)
-1 Shuriken Cannon

Dire Avengers [X10] (Total: 260pts)
-Exarch
-Wave Serpent
-TL Bright Lances

Rangers [X5] 60pts

+++FAST ATTACK+++

Vyper Squad [X2] (Total: 160pts)
-2 Holofields
-2 Shuriken Cannon upgrades
-2 Starcannons

+++HEAVY SUPPORT+++

Warwalker Squadron [X2] (Total: 140pts)
-2 Scatter Lasers
-2 Starcannons

Falcon Gravtank (Total: 160pts)
-Scatter Laser
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo Fields

Falcon Gravtank (Total: 160pts)
-Scatter Laser
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo Fields

1499 Points

Its unfortunate that we don't see more eldar lists like this. All we see nowadays is Groups of 3 Jetbikes with groups of 5 dire avengers with a waver serpent and Jetseer council with 2 wraithknights on top.

Couple of things come to mind, firstly the fire dragons don't need an exarch as they tend to go on suicide runs and if you feel compelled to keep him in drop the fire pike it really has zero purpose as you want the bulk of your shooting close enough that melta benefits everyone in the squad. Also why falcons over serpents when they are less durable and a serpent with scatters shuri cannons and holofields are like 15 points cheaper and you get the re roll on str7 cover ignoring shields

Lots of Eldar shooting goodness. Definitely a list that can dish some out; given the low number of infantry in the list, you'll need to soften the target up with shooting a decent amount before exposing your troops.

You do have the firepower to accomplish that goal, but Vypers and Walkers are *really* vulnerable.

An army with firepower could very reasonably disable 2 or 3 of the walkers/vypers in one turn.

That would leave your falcons, one vyper/walker and one cannon on your bikes.... which doesn't bode well for you.

I would consider using a wraithlord to do some of your shooting. WL's are BS4, and the weapons needed to take them down are the same as those used to attack your falcons.

I think part of the problem is that as written, you have a couple of units which require heavy weapons to attack (falcons) and a couple of units susceptible to medium strength weapons (heavy bolts, multilaser, psycannon). Most armies will have some of each; by providing a few targets at each armor range, you're ensuring that all of your opponent's weapons will have an ideal target.

If you were to swap out the unit of walkers for something a little heavier, you would force your opponent to make a choice with their heavies.

I recommend the vypers stay, walkers go. If I have to field a vulnerable unit, I prefer a mobile one that can be easily hidden turn 1 and can use it's speed to stay alive long enough to accomplish it's mission.

Just my $0.02

aaaaahhhhhh falcons.... the horror!!!!!
In all seriousness if you want gun boats, get a wave serpent instead. If you want a better transport, get a wave serpent instead. If you want better survivability, get a wave serpent instead. The wave serpent (Only if it has TL SL) is the nastiest tank in the game (imo)
But only with scatter lasers.
Agreed with Warren on fragons. Vypers die so easy, better to replace it with other things (warp spiders jump to mind)

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
nastiest tank in the game )

I couldn't agree more. Peep the list below; it doesn't lose much.

Everyone expects the wave serpents to be nasty, no ones stops to think about the dire avengers: BS4, 18" 4/5, Assualt 2, Rending. You can disembark T2, move, shoot, run or vice versa. Often I'll get them out of the serpent one turn and put em back in on the next.


@HQ [ 1 ]

Autarch (88pt.) Plasma grenades; Haywire grenades; Forcefield; Heavy Aspect armour; Banshee mask; Scorpion chainsword; Fusion gun; Shuriken pistol;

@Troops [ 5 ]
the
9x - Dire Avengers (262pt.)
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (145pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked starcannon; Shuriken cannon; Holo-fields;

9x - Dire Avengers (262pt.)
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (145pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked starcannon; Shuriken cannon; Holo-fields;

9x - Dire Avengers (262pt.)
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (145pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked starcannon; Shuriken cannon; Holo-fields;

9x - Dire Avengers (262pt.)
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (145pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked starcannon; Shuriken cannon; Holo-fields;

9x - Dire Avengers (262pt.)
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (145pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked starcannon; Shuriken cannon; Holo-fields;

@Heavy support [ 3 ]

Fire Prism (150pt.) Prism cannon; Twin-linked shuriken catapults; Spirit Stones; Holo-fields;

Fire Prism (150pt.) Prism cannon; Twin-linked shuriken catapults; Spirit Stones; Holo-fields;

Fire Prism (150pt.) Prism cannon; Twin-linked shuriken catapults; Spirit Stones; Holo-fields;

^^ Slight mis-click though. Clicked the star cannon not the scatter laser option for the wave serpents. Looks good other wise

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
^^ Slight mis-click though. Clicked the star cannon not the scatter laser option for the wave serpents. Looks good other wise

It's a bad habit; I have these bad dreams about terminators....

I actually used to play a Deathwingarmy a lot, figures, eh. Funny thing is, Deathwing are a terrible list, but you'd be amazed some of the lists they beat.

znelson wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
^^ Slight mis-click though. Clicked the star cannon not the scatter laser option for the wave serpents. Looks good other wise

It's a bad habit; I have these bad dreams about terminators....

I actually used to play a Deathwingarmy a lot, figures, eh. Funny thing is, Deathwing are a terrible list, but you'd be amazed some of the lists they beat.

With the 2 extra shots, and the twin linking of the other weapons do more damage to terminators than 2 star cannon shots. Especially when the terminators have 5+ invulnerables.

Okay, so I pulled out my pad and paper and here's how it works out:

Starcannon (TL):
3/4 To will hit. (Twin Linked, so required consecutive 1/2's to fail)
5/6 to wound (2+)
2/3 that the save will fail (5+)

30/72 = 41.6% Are the odds of an individual starcannon shot killing a terminator. Almost half.

Scatterlaser(TL)
3/4 to hit
5/6 to wound
1/6 to fail the save

15/144 = 10.41% Chance of a shot killing a terminator

But the scatterlaser fires twice as many shots, so here's the comparative math, for the odds of a full turns shooting NOT killing a terminator:
15/144 is the odds of terminator dying, therefore the odds are 129/144 that an individual shot will not kill a terminator.
129/144^4 is the probability that all 4 shots will fail to do anything.
80.25% of the time a scatter laser kills no terminator

42/72 are the odds of a starcannon shot failing. The odds of both shots failing is:
34.04%

65.96% of turns a starcannon fires at least one terminator will die
19.75% of turns a scatterlaser fires a terminator will die.

Only 1 Shuriken Cannon shot per turn will miss on average, and this hit will only result in a AP 2 hit one in six times.

I actually hadn't done the math until now... I felt oddly compelled.

What this doesn't account for is the utility that a scatterlaser has when you're trying to deal with a large number of lightly armored vehicles; rhinos and dreadnaughts are quite annoying. In those situations, the two are almost equal and the scatterlaser get literally twice as many attempts - though in truth it is a increase from 5 to 7, not 2 to 4.

You forgot to add in the shield discharge for the extra d6+1 shots that are Str 7 and get twin linked if the scatter laser hits at all.

I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to using the serpent shield as a weapon... As per the earlier math, 4 new hits with a S6+ weapon will only have about a 20% chance of actually killing a terminator.... and of the average 3.5 shots/turn from the field, only a little over 1 will miss.

Again, on average the field has the same odds as the scatterlaser itself, as the field also has no ap. Twin linking can't help a shot that didn't miss; that's not where the problem is.

Bottom line if you're shooting at terminators, a Starcannon will kill more Termies than the laser and field together, and you'll get to keep to keep using your wave serpent.

znelson wrote:
Okay, so I pulled out my pad and paper and here's how it works out:

Starcannon (TL):
3/4 To will hit. (Twin Linked, so required consecutive 1/2's to fail)
5/6 to wound (2+)
2/3 that the save will fail (5+)

30/72 = 41.6% Are the odds of an individual starcannon shot killing a terminator. Almost half.

Scatterlaser(TL)
3/4 to hit
5/6 to wound
1/6 to fail the save

15/144 = 10.41% Chance of a shot killing a terminator

But the scatterlaser fires twice as many shots, so here's the comparative math, for the odds of a full turns shooting NOT killing a terminator:
15/144 is the odds of terminator dying, therefore the odds are 129/144 that an individual shot will not kill a terminator.
129/144^4 is the probability that all 4 shots will fail to do anything.
80.25% of the time a scatter laser kills no terminator

42/72 are the odds of a starcannon shot failing. The odds of both shots failing is:
34.04%

65.96% of turns a starcannon fires at least one terminator will die
19.75% of turns a scatterlaser fires a terminator will die.

Only 1 Shuriken Cannon shot per turn will miss on average, and this hit will only result in a AP 2 hit one in six times.

I actually hadn't done the math until now... I felt oddly compelled.

What this doesn't account for is the utility that a scatterlaser has when you're trying to deal with a large number of lightly armored vehicles; rhinos and dreadnaughts are quite annoying. In those situations, the two are almost equal and the scatterlaser get literally twice as many attempts - though in truth it is a increase from 5 to 7, not 2 to 4.

Sorry but this only works if you roll average ^^.

While I disagree with the usual way of thinking of some people around here regarding the Falcons, I'm not sold about the Scatter Lasers. You already have plenty of S6 shooting available but could definitely need a little bit more on the S8 side. The Bright Lance / Pulse Laser combo is really good and apart from that something which the Serpent can't accomplish. But it's all about how far you want to go down the route of streamline and cheesiness so be careful of the counsel of some apologetics here

Thanks everybody for the advice, though not sure how it got hijacked with different list.

I know all the meta says that Wave Serpents are head-and-shoulders better than Falcons, but they also bring a lot of stigma as a broken unit too, and I'm not trying to build a hyper-competitive list as much as a good-but-fun list for use at the local game club (I also only have one Wave Serpent physical limitations and whatnot) .

The advice on the Fire Dragons is pretty sound, I guess th eunit is pretty much just as effective with the basic five Fire Dragons as it is with the Exarch. I toyed with the idea of giving the Exarch the Ld upgrade and making it a Warlord, to give him a shot at earning the Split Fire warlord trait, any thoughts on that concept? A long shot, but a fun idea which would add considerable value to two Firepike shots.

Valid points on the Vypers being delicate and allowing the enemy to make the most of their firepower. My intent is that the holofields (granting a 4+ when combined with Jink) will keep them in the game long enough to deal some damage and soak up some fire. The pair of them is the same points as a Falcon and put out a similar amount of firepower, a bit more anti-infantry focused. I could drop them for Swooping Hawks or -maybe- Wraithguard, but the latter are pointless without a transport, and I don't want Dire Avengers footslogging either.

Dropping the Walkers instead of the Vypers might be an option as well, I'll give it a think and come back with a modified list.

You can't make any Exarch your Warlord. However, if you are really into this idea of yours, you could field Fuegan (he has split fire) with the Fire Dragons but I don't recommend it.

Suite wrote:
You can't make any Exarch your Warlord. However, if you are really into this idea of yours, you could field Fuegan (he has split fire) with the Fire Dragons but I don't recommend it.

Oh right, the ***HQ*** character with highest leadership, not any character. Fair enough...

Always thought the Phoenix lords were a bit expensive for what they do, I'd have to drop the whole Fire Dragon squad in order to take him.

znelson wrote:
Okay, so I pulled out my pad and paper and here's how it works out:

Starcannon (TL):
3/4 To will hit. (Twin Linked, so required consecutive 1/2's to fail)
5/6 to wound (2+)
2/3 that the save will fail (5+)

30/72 = 41.6% Are the odds of an individual starcannon shot killing a terminator. Almost half.

Scatterlaser(TL)
3/4 to hit
5/6 to wound
1/6 to fail the save

15/144 = 10.41% Chance of a shot killing a terminator

But the scatterlaser fires twice as many shots, so here's the comparative math, for the odds of a full turns shooting NOT killing a terminator:
15/144 is the odds of terminator dying, therefore the odds are 129/144 that an individual shot will not kill a terminator.
129/144^4 is the probability that all 4 shots will fail to do anything.
80.25% of the time a scatter laser kills no terminator

42/72 are the odds of a starcannon shot failing. The odds of both shots failing is:
34.04%

65.96% of turns a starcannon fires at least one terminator will die
19.75% of turns a scatterlaser fires a terminator will die.

Only 1 Shuriken Cannon shot per turn will miss on average, and this hit will only result in a AP 2 hit one in six times.

I actually hadn't done the math until now... I felt oddly compelled.

What this doesn't account for is the utility that a scatterlaser has when you're trying to deal with a large number of lightly armored vehicles; rhinos and dreadnaughts are quite annoying. In those situations, the two are almost equal and the scatterlaser get literally twice as many attempts - though in truth it is a increase from 5 to 7, not 2 to 4.

But you miss what makes the scatter laser better.
The twin linking of the shuiken cannon (which will save you one extra shot with rending) and 2 serpent shield shots on average. Thats a total of 7 total shots because you have scatter lasers, whith the potentail for much more.

Also halfe a chance to kill a terminator, why even bother? that means that if all 4 wave serpents (with starcannon) shoot, they will kil on average 4 terminators. Thats not even a full 5 man squad. While the wave serpent exells against anything and everything else.

It depends really, Id rather have more Ap2 vs a solid deathwing army rather then some SL which won't do much, as for the shield you want it up for the DS so you don't get taken out turn 1/2.

But yes, as all around TAC SL hold the slot, with BL coming second.