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I started playing 40k in general and Dark Angels from the DV box set just a few months ago. Since then, I've built a force that's mainly Deathwing based. Each week, the person helping me learn the game beats the crap out of me with his Tau army. No matter what strategy I try, it just doesn't work. We play 2k points. The last game I had:

HQ - Azrael
HQ - Libby with PFG (stays with Devastator squad to give them 4++ and prescience)
Elite - Deathwing Knights (5)
Troops - 4 x DW Terminators (5), CML, AC
Troops - Ravenwing attack squad (6), 2 plasma guns
Devastator squad (5) (lascannon based)
LR Crusader (with Azzy and Knights)
Predator (lascannon based)

It felt like a pretty rounded list. The Terminators could DW Assault using the bikes homing beacon so no scatter. The bikes can scout up getting them closer and take some damage to make sure they drop. It doesn't help that my LR exploded in turn 1 the last 2 times due to Hammerhead Railguns. It also doesn't help that the last 2 games were night fighting and Tau are pretty much immune to it. I also get any cover I'm in yanked.

I can't figure out what to do. I try to deepstrike the terminators but they pummeled in the Tau shooting phase. It's just too many shots. I can't get my LR close enough to unload the Knights as it keeps getting blown up from Rail Guns shooting across the board. I'm facing a big tank like HQ guy, 2 hammerheads, a Riptide, crisis suits, broadsides, markerlights, and various infantry.

When I do get a chance to assault, I get overwatched by everything. How should I adjust my army? Should I bring another LR? Should I try a Dreadnaught in a drop pod and go with tactical marines instead of terminators? He's a very good player and I'm still learning both armies, but I struggle to see how beating them is possible.

Thanks for any feedback.

Ok, first things first, terminators are not competitive. Point for point they are weak, and have very inefficient shooting. Knights or TH/SS termies are still ok, but they are a cc orientated unit, in a shooty edition.

troops - 4 x DW Terminators (5), CML, AC

Termies can only have 1 heavy weapon per 5 men.

Tac marines are better than terminators, but are still not great. Bikes remain the best troop choices for space marine lists atm.

If your landraider gets destroyed too easily then you could consider upgrading it to a deathwing vehicle, getting another landraider, and giving your librarian a bike to ride along behind them.

Overall Tau are one of the top 3 codexes, DA are...not quite bottom, but nearly, so it will be an upwards struggle, especially if you are using terminators.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Ok, first things first, terminators are not competitive. Point for point they are weak, and have very inefficient shooting. Knights or TH/SS termies are still ok, but they are a cc orientated unit, in a shooty edition.

troops - 4 x DW Terminators (5), CML, AC

Termies can only have 1 heavy weapon per 5 men.

Tac marines are better than terminators, but are still not great. Bikes remain the best troop choices for space marine lists atm.

If your landraider gets destroyed too easily then you could consider upgrading it to a deathwing vehicle, getting another landraider, and giving your librarian a bike to ride along behind them.

Overall Tau are one of the top 3 codexes, DA are...not quite bottom, but nearly, so it will be an upwards struggle, especially if you are using terminators.

I wouldn't rate them so poorly. Imo their are many armies worse than da. (blood angels, space wolves, nids, and orks to name a fee). Igneous friend is fielding more than one riptide I'd probably stop playing with him. He's just trying to be a seal clubber

 ionusx wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Ok, first things first, terminators are not competitive. Point for point they are weak, and have very inefficient shooting. Knights or TH/SS termies are still ok, but they are a cc orientated unit, in a shooty edition.

troops - 4 x DW Terminators (5), CML, AC

Termies can only have 1 heavy weapon per 5 men.

Tac marines are better than terminators, but are still not great. Bikes remain the best troop choices for space marine lists atm.

If your landraider gets destroyed too easily then you could consider upgrading it to a deathwing vehicle, getting another landraider, and giving your librarian a bike to ride along behind them.

Overall Tau are one of the top 3 codexes, DA are...not quite bottom, but nearly, so it will be an upwards struggle, especially if you are using terminators.

I wouldn't rate them so poorly. Imo their are many armies worse than da. (blood angels, space wolves, nids, and orks to name a fee). Igneous friend is fielding more than one riptide I'd probably stop playing with him. He's just trying to be a seal clubber

Hence why I said near the bottom, not the bottom. Still, nids and SW are arguably better. BA and Orcs are pretty much bottom atm.

One thing is certain, DA are not as competitive as standard space marines. So if playing from Codex: DA is getting you down, remember that they are still marines, and can use a Codex:SM rules instead. You might find it more enjoyable when you field gravgun bikes vs riptides and the likes.

Eh, against Tau i'd rate them poorly lol. Tau are usually sporting the most AP1/2 out of most of the armies. I myself in a 2k point game usually bring 2x riptides with IA, a fusion crisis team w/ buffmander, and a hammerhead with longstrike if i didnt feel like bringing the piranhas. While thats only 6 fusions and 2 IA technically, gotta remember theyre all S8 and the IA are large blasts lol. And what i have that isnt AP1/2 usually fires like im playing Orks or something, so i cause damage nontheless lol

No idea how many times my riptides have intercepted a deepstriking termie unit and wiped them out in one go. Dont ever think that your termies are little gods lol it will end badly (since thats usually what happens when my opponents put them down, "Ah theyre termies with shields theyre good" lol)

I appreciate the feedback. I like the Libby behind the Land Raider(s) with his PFG. I didn't know vehicles could receive that buff. I do upgrade them to DW vehicles, but I guess I've just been unlucky.

I'm going to order that second Land Raider this week to at least attempt to take all the heat off 1 as it tends to have a big target on it. Will try some space marine type builds and report back. Going Ravenwing will require a much larger overhaul and addition to my current forces.

jim8015 wrote:
I appreciate the feedback. I like the Libby behind the Land Raider(s) with his PFG. I didn't know vehicles could receive that buff. I do upgrade them to DW vehicles, but I guess I've just been unlucky.

I'm going to order that second Land Raider this week to at least attempt to take all the heat off 1 as it tends to have a big target on it. Will try some space marine type builds and report back. Going Ravenwing will require a much larger overhaul and addition to my current forces.

It was unfortunate, but the PFG was nerfed. Before, it worked when insides vehicles, and 3 inches around them, so landraiders (this was awesome) and fortresses with PFG were common. Then someone decided that this was overpowered (but 2++ rerollable saves are not), and made the generator only work within 3 of the bearer, and not when inside vehicles or buildings. It still effects everything within 3, however you have to have your librarian or tech marine on a bike behind the thing you want to protect.

What kind of landraider are you getting? Crusaders are the best choice from the codex, but IA:V2 has given us the landraider spartan, which is a strong competitor. Crusaders can be fun with the dakka banner though.
I think with AV14, a 4+ save, and vhicle damage table rerolls, tau will have a tough time taking them out. Once the hammerheads are dealt with, then you should have free reign.

If he takes a lot of plasma I wouldn't take the terminators. If he doesn't take a small squad of them and pick on a unit on his flank. Terminators are bully units, never send them at something they are comparable with, send them after something relatively weaker and annihilate it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

jim8015 wrote:
I appreciate the feedback. I like the Libby behind the Land Raider(s) with his PFG. I didn't know vehicles could receive that buff. I do upgrade them to DW vehicles, but I guess I've just been unlucky.

I'm going to order that second Land Raider this week to at least attempt to take all the heat off 1 as it tends to have a big target on it. Will try some space marine type builds and report back. Going Ravenwing will require a much larger overhaul and addition to my current forces.

It was unfortunate, but the PFG was nerfed. Before, it worked when insides vehicles, and 3 inches around them, so landraiders (this was awesome) and fortresses with PFG were common. Then someone decided that this was overpowered (but 2++ rerollable saves are not), and made the generator only work within 3 of the bearer, and not when inside vehicles or buildings. It still effects everything within 3, however you have to have your librarian or tech marine on a bike behind the thing you want to protect.

What kind of landraider are you getting? Crusaders are the best choice from the codex, but IA:V2 has given us the landraider spartan, which is a strong competitor. Crusaders can be fun with the dakka banner though.
I think with AV14, a 4+ save, and vhicle damage table rerolls, tau will have a tough time taking them out. Once the hammerheads are dealt with, then you should have free reign.

Was going normal LR as I already have a crusader. Figured the lascannon shots from distance might help take them down.

How do you and/or your opponent feel about forgeworld and allies?

There are a few forgeworld items that could make all the difference against Tau.

Inquisition, SM, or Astra Militarum allies would probably help as they have options that are good at busting up gunlines, reducing plasma weapon damage, and killing MC.

Your list is illegal however as you cannot have a CML and AC in a 5 man squad of termies.

The 3 lists I would have the most confidence in against Tau are a RW list, a melee based landraider rush list, and a scout spam list. However each of those lists requires something to deal with his riptide (RW and scout spam) or his hammer heads (LR spam needs those dead turn 1) which are better provided by allies or forgeworld.

Another option is if you use stronghold assault then a void shield generator could buy you the extra turn of movement to get your landraider into the opponent's line.

It's fun but i don't have problems vs tau with my orkses usually. But it surely depends on lists. Tau can't handle av14 saturation usually cause they mostly rely on massed s7 and riptides with just a couple of meltas or s10 shots across the board. They'll kill one tank for sure. But when there are 2 of them, it's harder. Not telling aboutwagon rush with 3-4 wagonz full of boyz and nobz.

As for dark angels, i'd say it's a good bet to drop a double-heavy flamer ironclad on his markers or FW gunline. Try to place it in cover so that he'll have to waste remaining markers and shots to get rid of it. You GOT to kill his markers anyway. They're a huge force multiplier. The moment he won't be able to ignore cover and improve bs to explode your landraider - consider it done. Use landraider as moving blos both for advance and before assault. Use Azrael to eat overwatch wounds instead of knights and multicharge everyone. They're still shooting overwatch, don't they =)

 ansacs wrote:
How do you and/or your opponent feel about forgeworld and allies?

There are a few forgeworld items that could make all the difference against Tau.

Inquisition, SM, or Astra Militarum allies would probably help as they have options that are good at busting up gunlines, reducing plasma weapon damage, and killing MC.

Your list is illegal however as you cannot have a CML and AC in a 5 man squad of termies.

The 3 lists I would have the most confidence in against Tau are a RW list, a melee based landraider rush list, and a scout spam list. However each of those lists requires something to deal with his riptide (RW and scout spam) or his hammer heads (LR spam needs those dead turn 1) which are better provided by allies or forgeworld.

Another option is if you use stronghold assault then a void shield generator could buy you the extra turn of movement to get your landraider into the opponent's line.

Since I'm still new, I haven't really considered Forgeworld or Allies (due to $ costs I'm trying to get a stable 1st force). I don't actually carry a CML and AC in the same squad. I have 3 squads with one AC in each and one squad with a CML. I like the AC due to rending and I've been having good luck with them. Lots of good tips here though guys. I really appreciate it.

 koooaei wrote:
You GOT to kill his markers anyway. They're a huge force multiplier. The moment he won't be able to ignore cover and improve bs to explode your landraider - consider it done. Use landraider as moving blos both for advance and before assault. Use Azrael to eat overwatch wounds instead of knights and multicharge everyone. They're still shooting overwatch, don't they =)

This.
Markerlights are outright lethal and should be priority target #1. Without marker support, his units will struggle to hit anything and you will have your cover saves again. The nice thing about the PFG is that markerlights can't negate it. Bubble your raiders around it T1 to prevent any shooting from punching through.

Your next priority is hammerheads, longstrike in particular. This guy can easily waste a raider, even if it is deathwing upgraded. Any penetrating hit is going to stun it(Ap1) at the minimum, but has a 50% chance to pop it. Get to him, somehow and take em out. Once the other hammerhead is gone, your raiders are going to be OK. The riptide can hurt it with fusion or an assault, but only at close range.

Second getting a libby/techmarine on a bike to carry a PFG and escort your raiders. You could hide your RW behind to escort, but tau don't have any barrage to speak of so a single bike could just be hidden outright behind a raider.

Terminators are not great against tau, as said. S5 30" guns will force enough saves, particularly with marker support. Plasma and fusion make very quick work of them, and riptides will own them. CML is ok to sit back and double out crisis suits, and the assault cannon is your best bet, but dropping in is generally a bad idea. Bikes are great with T5, and once the markers are gone jink is effectively your 5++ from terminator armor. Knights in a raider with azzy are great if they can make it, but they need the raiders to survive.

Consider going with a dev banner command squad(regular tac marines will do) to make your crusaders shooting machines(it also boosts your bikes!). Always take a multi melta on top of any raider.

 Dr. Serling wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You GOT to kill his markers anyway. They're a huge force multiplier. The moment he won't be able to ignore cover and improve bs to explode your landraider - consider it done. Use landraider as moving blos both for advance and before assault. Use Azrael to eat overwatch wounds instead of knights and multicharge everyone. They're still shooting overwatch, don't they =)

This.
Markerlights are outright lethal and should be priority target #1. Without marker support, his units will struggle to hit anything and you will have your cover saves again. The nice thing about the PFG is that markerlights can't negate it. Bubble your raiders around it T1 to prevent any shooting from punching through.

Your next priority is hammerheads, longstrike in particular. This guy can easily waste a raider, even if it is deathwing upgraded. Any penetrating hit is going to stun it(Ap1) at the minimum, but has a 50% chance to pop it. Get to him, somehow and take em out. Once the other hammerhead is gone, your raiders are going to be OK. The riptide can hurt it with fusion or an assault, but only at close range.

Second getting a libby/techmarine on a bike to carry a PFG and escort your raiders. You could hide your RW behind to escort, but tau don't have any barrage to speak of so a single bike could just be hidden outright behind a raider.

Terminators are not great against tau, as said. S5 30" guns will force enough saves, particularly with marker support. Plasma and fusion make very quick work of them, and riptides will own them. CML is ok to sit back and double out crisis suits, and the assault cannon is your best bet, but dropping in is generally a bad idea. Bikes are great with T5, and once the markers are gone jink is effectively your 5++ from terminator armor. Knights in a raider with azzy are great if they can make it, but they need the raiders to survive.

Consider going with a dev banner command squad(regular tac marines will do) to make your crusaders shooting machines(it also boosts your bikes!). Always take a multi melta on top of any raider.

Excellent feedback, Dr. Quick question, do you think taking Belial in with a group of terminators and precision deep striking them next to the marker lights with a twin linked heavy flamer and storm bolters would work? Perhaps even a drop pod attempt to get a Dreadnought with Heavy Flamer would work? He tends to bunch his guys up to take advantage of any charging I do. I kept thinking if I had a flamer I could really do some damage, especially if they don't scatter. Just thinking out loud. They would be sacrificial when he shoots. Thanks!

As a tau player, the best option I would suggest to you to counter my lists (similar but more riptide heavy than what your friend plays) or any tau lists would be to bring techmarines. Repairing a landraider, which is hard to take out to begin with, and getting rid of immobilized results and the like is extremely annoying. I just try to ignore raiders until I'm out of other targets due to how hard they are to kill w/o dumping all of my heavy shots into them. Bikes and fast moving units are the bane of tau as well, so as many bikes or speeders you can get your hands on will wreck face quickly.

Excellent advise, I wouldn't let the PFG ride alone though, lest we forget about pesky smart missile systems! Best to leave them with a ravenwing squad (or combat squad) for some safety.

You can have a green Command squad in a raider for dakka fun naturally, the bikes can add to said dakka fun (the remainder of said combat squad, for example, assuming you leave 3 behind for the PFG escort).

Landspeeders and Predator Destructors are excellent for pressuring broadsides/crisis, I find a couple typhoons sitting nicely out of range of most Tau threats (I play vs Missile heavy lists, capping them at 36" besides longstrike) work really nicely to force saves on their elites from the back field. Use Frags to score more hits & delete drones, move to Kraks when they have a chance to punch through.

A whirlwind is a worthwhile investment also, camp it at the back & wear down his fire warriors (unless pathfinders/marker drones are about - as has been said, market-lights are No 1 priority).

Remember the whirlwind is barrage, wounds are taken from the centre of the blast marker first, place it on any of those sergeants with marker-lights to try pick them out of the squad, even if not doing this whirlwinds are excellent vs Tau.

A 5 man Company Veteran squad (or a 10 man split into 2x 5 comat squads) armed up with plasma/combi plasma or melta/combi melta should eat the riptide if he decides to bring it too close to your Land Raider(s).

I assume one raider carries the command squad, if so theres rarely need to deploy them - but consider a flamer or 2 for burning him off objectives late-game.