Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah.. I need a warhound

 koooaei wrote:
You're missing one thing. 2+ rerollable makes you literally immune to damage. you need 36 wounds to force him fail one save. Count how many pts you need to inflict 36 wound to kill a 55 pt seer? They can have 2+ armor, 2+ cover, 2++ invul from baron. If eldar fails some vital buff which is not very likely considering the ammount of rolls, he can withdraw 48' + 2d6' across the whole map if needed to come back next turn.

One can not turbo boost and then have the 2D6 in the close combat phase additionally. I never fielded a Jetbike Council myself but if I did, I would not put the Baron in front of the unit. If you somehow lose the hit and run, the joke is more or less over.

would Hallucinations or Psychic Scream work? Seems like hallucinations would have a 50% chance of nullifying the unit for at least a turn.

It will have a 4+ deny.. plus whatever eldar runes do these days

One use +2 to deny roll per Rune of Warding, 10 points.

Ok, step 1 is to not play. Why play a game that isn't fun? Impose house rules and pick your opponents.
Now in tourneys this wont work. .. so..

Dont try and kill it.

Play the mission. Hit their serpents and the scoring. Use pointless units to block. They can't kill more than one unit a turn, and aren't all that. Farseer bomb is much worse.
Spread out and outplay them.

Take a fortification with a macro cannon and blow them to hell.

Otherwise don't play them, as an eldar player I only ever use in in WAAC tournaments which my LGS does once per month, though with people bring escalation and stronghold all that D means seer councils won't last long.

wtnind wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Cultist unit is going to lose combat and get run down every time.

Cultists are Fearless if you take Typhus as an HQ or take a Hellbrute formation Helcults

Please note I clearly mentioned that this was when the Council has Terrify as well, which means your Fearless goes away and you can literally never win combat with Cultists/Zombies (they are a grind unit, either they are all dead or the enemy is). If they get Fortune early and then get Terrify as well Chaos have basically nothing that can touch them, they don't have to wipe your army out with attacks because they can just kill part of a squad, lose nothing and sweep 200+ points off the board at a time.

@GoliothOnline. All Warlocks and Farseers have Witchblades by default (Singing Spears are just the ranged version which you pay for), which are S3 (usually 4+ with the Warlock buff) Armourbane. Sure they need 9's to glance, but on an untouched Council (assuming 2 Seers, 8 Warlocks and the Baron) that is still 20 attacks at I5+ (assuming they are either multi charging or being charged) which at worst hit on 4+ (usually 3+ because of Enhance) with re-rolls (they will always have Prescience). On a good day they comfortably kill 2 Dreads/Helbrutes, even with sub par rolling without all the buffs they can kill one before it swings.

Heldrakes are pretty decent against seer stars, any thing that ignores cover and is maneuverable enough to get around the Barron's save can get some wounds through the council. Also hunt his troops.

Yeah, I'll repeat. 2+ cover is a lot scarier than 3+ armor, which is a lot scarier than a 4+ invul. The trick is to peel away the layers like an onion. Start with things that ignore cover, then things which ignore cover and armor.

There are plenty of shooting solutions that ignore cover, and some that ignore armor as well. Probably my favorite here would be a deepstriking lord with a burning brand, especially if he comes with, say, 4 terminators with a flamer and a heavy flamer.

But there's one way that allows both ignores cover and ignores armor, and that's close combat. Yes, yes, jetbikes are hella fast, but if he has to spend most of the game running away from another fast close combat unit, rather than mercilessly hacking at the rest of your army, then you've already sort of won.

And that's to say nothing about field position or any of the other fundamentals either. You might talk about a jetlock council leading a pack of raptors with an AoBF lord around a wild goose chase, but really, who is leading whom? If you're able to push your opponent further and further away out of fear of suddenly: 12 Ap2 melee attacks, then you're really the one controlling them, not the other way around.

And there's a whole bunch of fast melee stuff in the codex from raptors/talons to spawn to bikes of your own, and some less-so options like maulerfiends and a raider list. Heck, just adding a single juggerlord is going to make things pretty uncomfortable, especially if you sneak him in a khorne list with a rerollable charge.

Put another way, play them at their own game. This should be somewhat easy given just how absurdly expensive a jetlock council usually is. If his council costs as much as 3 units of 10 bikes, then you should be able to browbeat him into behaving.

I don't see raptors beating seercouncil. Your star will be half the cost but will die in 1 turn of combat. 12 attacks at ws5 = 8 hits = 6-7 wounds, vs Baron it's gona be 6 hits and 5 wounds. 2++ rerollable can handle it. You need 36 ap2 wounds in mellee to go through statistically. Even with just 4++ rerollable it's gona be 1-2 wounds max. So, You're gona loose a 350 pts unit to kill 100 pts of warlocks. Even if he somehow allows you to get in mellee.

I play against a jetbike seer council about once every month. I am 1 and 3 against them.

The one tactic that has worked for me is 2 10 man squads of Noise Marines with full sonics. Drive up the board, disembark and shoot. They get off 40 shots the round they get off the Rhinos, and 60 the next round if you are lucky. Use the Rhinos to focus your fire on the models you want to wound.

This is usually enough to cause a wound in the first round. Your goal is to take out the guys with Fortune or Forewarning. The council is squishier after that.

Also, it's important to have them near the center of the table. You have a 24 inch radius to shoot with sonic weapons, their mobility counts for a lot less if they are having to hide in the corners. Being in the middle means you control where they go.

The thing I am debating is whether or not to take more Noise Marines the next time we play. When I have lost to them, it was because I didn't have enough shots per turn. I think they will fall reliably to a big firebase composed of multiple units.

You need to get within 12' of them though. Cause the range of salvo weapons is halved on the move.

Can you give an example of the kind of jetlock council you're talking about?

And once again, you don't have to catch them before you can have any usefulness whatsoever against them.

 koooaei wrote:
You need to get within 12' of them though. Cause the range of salvo weapons is halved on the move.

Yeah, admittedly, the salvo rule sucks. This was an unnecessary nerf.

To get there, you move up in the Rhino, disembark and move up another 6 inches. You are still limited to shooting 12 inches, but you have moved up 12 to get there. It's like a full 24 inch range, just with only 2 shots.

Ally Orks and use a Stompa on a Landing Pad and steal the intiative. That's what I did

Seriously though, stack as many ignores cover wounds as possible. Death through attrition, the Orky way.

Wait till the 24th of May then bring a level 4 psker and put all your deny the witch dice into dispelling fortune.

Is it possible to just throw a Bloodthirster or some other CC beast at it? I'm not sure, haven't played against the council.

The council on the charge (they have H&R so always get a charge) has from a minimum 24+3 fleshbane attacks needing 5s to hit the blood thirster with re rolls, then 2s to wound with re rolls, so chances are you squish one or two and then lose a 400pt model.

crimson_caesar wrote:
Is it possible to just throw a Bloodthirster or some other CC beast at it? I'm not sure, haven't played against the council.

Council has 2 options
1. challenge with baron, baron has a 2++ shield that lasts until he fails a save, since the unit will have Fortune on it then you will have to do 36 wounds on average before he fails his save. You wont get to though because as soon as you have had 1 round of combat they will hit and run and murder you with ranged attacks.
2. the eldar player refuses the challenge and just takes hits on warlocks who have a 4++ and it's rerollable because of Fortune so you might kill 1 maybe 2 before they beat you up back and then hit and run and kill you with wave serpents.

are their attacks with any AP? I'm starting to think that a large unit of meganobs might be just what they need... 20 T4 2+ wounds, 40 S9 AP2 attacks... maybe even with grotsnik to make them fearless, give them an invuln & FNP? charging from a battlewagon they have a chance of catching them, and if they fail, they'll go much the rest of his army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
though that's not entirely chaos is it... what about slaanesh terminators with a variety of lightning claws, power axes and powerfists?

 some bloke wrote:
are their attacks with any AP? I'm starting to think that a large unit of meganobs might be just what they need... 20 T4 2+ wounds, 40 S9 AP2 attacks... maybe even with grotsnik to make them fearless, give them an invuln & FNP? charging from a battlewagon they have a chance of catching them, and if they fail, they'll go much the rest of his army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
though that's not entirely chaos is it... what about slaanesh terminators with a variety of lightning claws, power axes and powerfists?

You don't want lightning claws against a unit almost certain to have protect and thus a 2+ rerollable armor save.

What are people not getting about Flicker Field, Fortune, Hit and Run combo.

Charging terminator with power fist 3 attacks.

Flicker Field gives a 2++ and Fortune gives rerolls for failed saves.

This means you need 6 wounds to cause a single 1 to be rolled on the flicker field, then he rerolls the 1 and it comes up another 1 in only 1 in 6 cases = 1/36 chance to actually fail his invulnerable save.

So you need 36 wounds to kill the baron (the guy with the flicker field), which means 12 terminators.

38 points per terminator = 456 points
Add in their land raiders (x3 - because its the only way you will even remotely be likely to get a charge off intact) = 1146 points
Add in another 3 terminators for good measure because some are going to die before they can strike = 1260 points

yeah... I'm back to three options.

1: don't play
2: bring a warhound.
3. screen with chaff units and ignore them, focus on the objectives.

Warhound is the best option IMO, the look on his/her face would be priceless, Though be warned, if he/she gets puppet master then your titan may shoot at you!

That's no big deal. Puppet mastery needs a cast, than hit than deny the witch. i'd say it's around 63.5% to work. And requires him to be within 24. He'd probably spread his deathstar in hopes for msu but u'll also have msu accompanying your warhound. Anywayz, u'd be better at holding those S: D shots with your units than he'd be. Good at both killing deathstars and serpents. And totally legit now. It's not a very friendly move to bring in such a broken unit but was it a friendly move on his part to bring in such a broken deathstar accompanied with wave serpents in the first place?..

Sure, this will end up that he'll bring a revenant titan and your games are gona be decided on who gets the first turn to blast away the opponent's titan. But that's the exact destination you're guyz heading in this powergaming of who outcheezes the cheeze.