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Hi dakka,
I have never played Warhammer before and have settled on playing Warriors of Chaos, and I have a few questions to ask...
How would I go about making an army list?
Are there any units I should always include?
And since my friend plans to play VC or TK was WoC a good army to choose?

Thanks for any replies.

ElfHound wrote:

How would I go about making an army list?

Well if you're new to the game, you should see in the core rule book that the army comp chart dictates that you must spend 25% of your points in Core choices. Lords, Heroes, and Rare choices each then get their own 25% points allowance while Special get 50%.

ElfHound wrote:

Are there any units I should always include?

While this is true for any army, you should try and include some sort of Magic source. For smaller games, that can be a level 2 wizard (aka your Hero level Sorcerer), though as you get into larger games you'll want to squeeze that Lord choice level 4 Sorcerer Lord.

ElfHound wrote:

And since my friend plans to play VC or TK was WoC a good army to choose?

This is irrelevant since neither of those armies are objectively better than WOC (though many people do say that TK are in a tough spot with their current book). In the hands of the right player, any army can win a game.

If you are settling on WOC as your choice, welcome to Norsca.

Welcome to Warhammer! I'm a WoC fanatic, so hopefully I can help you out! It's a fantastic army, and great for someone starting out due to low model count and relatively straightforward playstyle.

To give you a brief overview of what WoC does, it's an army that excels at brute force and offensive close combat power. We are the KINGS of close combat, and just about any one of our units will take on any other unit in 1v1. The downside is that these awesome units are very expensive in terms of points, so we will have fewer troops on the field than our opponent. It is imperative that you try to keep fights to 1v1 while avoiding getting flanked and overwhelmed by your opponent's superior numbers.

ElfHound wrote:
Hi dakka,
I have never played Warhammer before and have settled on playing Warriors of Chaos, and I have a few questions to ask...
How would I go about making an army list?

Going to start from scratch here as the question is a little open ended. First you'll need the main book and the army book. The main book includes rules on how armies are built. Each battle has a set points value, which is agreed upon by the players before the game. Common point values are 1000, 1500, 2000, 2400, and 2500. They can be anything, really. If you're starting out, 1000 is fine, don't bother going bigger. Anything smaller than that and things get a little weird, but you can even try dropping down to 600-800. I'd recommend 1000 to start though.

Then you'll want to think about what you want your army to do. I'll make it simple for you: do you want scary, tough-as-nails infantry, or more agile chariots as your main focus? This will be your Core, which must comprise of at least 25% of your points. Fortunately, WoC is blessed with amazing core choices in the forms of Warriors of Chaos and Chariots of Chaos. Don't bother with Marauders, Marauder Horsemen, or Forsaken for now. Or ever. The horsemen are usable in some cases, but just focus on the first two I named for now.

So, you've got a core. Now you want to build around that. If you went for the slower, but tougher infantry, you'll want support for it. Maybe a Gorebeast Chariot to help protect your flanks, or maybe you want to try some Chaos Knights or Skullcrushers for a faster unit to help cover your weaknesses. Here it's a lot more flexible, and again, WoC is blessed for choices. These choices come in the form of Special (which are basically elite units), which can make up to 50% of your army in points, and Rare (which are basically legendary awesomeness), which can make up to 25% of your army in points. Rare tends to be a little better than Special in a vacuum, but never feel as if you HAVE to take something that's Rare just for the heck of it.

But before you max out on points, you'll want a general! Not just want, but need. So... here's your next choice. Do you want a combat general that slaughters everything, or do you want a sorceror that helps provide defense against magic and fling out some of your own? If you have warriors, you'll want to give him the same mark as your warriors and stick him in there. If you don't, you'll want to give him Mark of Tzeentch and stick him on a disk. At 1000 points, or even a little above that, you'll likely only want a regular Hero. Don't look at Lords until 1500+.

A note on our sorcerors, we're the only (?) army that has armored spellcasters that can also punch your face in combat. They're still not great at it, though, so just take the extra armor as very awesome protection and be careful with them.

Are there any units I should always include?

WoC is, yet again, blessed for choice. I'll instead give you units to never include:

Marauders
Slaughterbrute
Forsaken
Mark of Slaanesh anything (though I've made a Slaanesh army work before and it was really fun, it's just tricky)

And here are units that are considered 'really really really really good':

Skullcrushers
Chimera
Demon Prince

Oh, and the surprise that most people gloss over the first time: Chaos Warhounds. Get a few units of 5 naked (no upgrades) dogs and learn to throw them under the bus. They will give you more deployment flexibility (I put down dogs, your turn), movement flexibility (dogs in your way angled so you can't charge my flank this turn), screening against shooting (dogs in your way, my main block is -2 to be hit), and general annoyance. If they live at the end of the battle you didn't use them enough, and don't expect them to ever kill anything, but they're great for the movement phase.

Aaaaaand... that's it. Want a big monstrous army? Get Throgg and go nuts with Chaos Trolls. Want super heavy cavalry of death? Get some chariots as core, then go on a spending spree with Skullcrushers and Chaos Knights. Want infantry that crushes everything beneath big plated boots that are fused to their flesh? Go for more basic Warriors of Chaos. My personal army I tend towards when I'm playing 'hard' is a block of 18 or 24 Mark of Khorne warriors with halberds supported by nurgle gorebeast chariots and nurgle regular chariots, with skullcrushers and a demon prince maxed out with a flying BSB on a disk being annoying.

Speaking of, you'll have a choice of marks for your warriors. Here are the three popular ones:

Mark of Tzeentch with shields (3+ armor save, 5++ parry save since the mark stacks with it)
Mark of Khorne with halberds (3 strength 5 attacks each)
Mark of Nurgle with great weapons (2 strength 6 attacks each, and -1 to be hit)

I'd recommend the latter two. I'm really not a fan of the first, because WoC does not want to play too defensively. If you play defensively you'll get overwhelmed. Remember, RIP AND TEAR!

And since my friend plans to play VC or TK was WoC a good army to choose?

Absolutely! WoC has no shooting, and part of the opposing gameplan is often to shoot up our units before they can reach combat. Since VC has no shooting, yay! You'll just have to watch out for Terrorgeists. And TK has shooting, but will often just dink off your heavy armor.

On top of that, VC in particular relies on raising back dead troops. If you go for an offensive WoC army (and you should, no matter who you're expecting to face!) you'll rip through so many troops that they can't keep up. Both are good matchups in general for us, but not autowin by any means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilytank wrote:
This is irrelevant since neither of those armies are objectively better than WOC (though many people do say that TK are in a tough spot with their current book). In the hands of the right player, any army can win a game.

Also, this. I probably shouldn't have even said 'good matchup', any army can win a game against any other army just fine and the balance between armies is arguably the best it's ever been. It really comes down to having a solid list and, much more importantly, knowing how to use it! Generalship is the main factor, which is one reason I love this game.

Thanks Wilytank,
I have quickly made this army list- I have a suspicion it is very weak... Lots of critique welcome


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, here is the list for 1000 pts
Sorcerer 84 points death wizard
Warriors x15 360 points
Chaos Warhounds x10 120 points
Chaos Knights x5 330 points
Total is 894 points, any ideas what to do with the spare 100 pts

General plan is to get a bunker for the sorcerer ( help here!), hit enemy units with knights, redirect with the Warhounds and tie up units in combat with the warriors so the knights can charge them. Please help, I am not sure if these tactics will work.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry didn't see your post but even so I had unknowingly taken on some of your advice, warriors and Warhounds but in the list I have forgotten the main thing: RARE CHOICES, should I take out any units to make space for something like a hellcannon? thanks for your advice (and anyone else's)

Don't bother with a hellcannon. That's actually looking pretty good. Spend those extra 100 points on getting your warriors a mark of your choosing. If you go with mark of nurgle, give it to your sorceror as well and stick him in the unit.

Also, don't give your warhounds upgrades. They're too expensive. Use the extra points from that to try and make your warrior block 17 strong (so it's 18 total with the sorceror), and make it 6 wide.

Thanks again Evertras, so the army list now looks like this:
17x Warriors, mark of nurgle
Sorcerer, mark of nurgle
5x knights
10x Warhounds

Simple, straightforward, and solid. A great place to start.

I'm just going to give you a heads up as well that your points values are off with respect to the new army book. I strongly suspect you are using army builder software of some kind, but oftentimes it's out of date (the new WoC book came out in 2013, so it's pretty recent). There's no way you can get an 84 point sorcerer, that value is much lower than the base value of even a level 1 sorcerer.

However, the good news is that even if you kit out every unit with full command groups and the best equipment possible (except for the warhounds, which you always want naked) and have your sorcerer a lvl 2, you army list will come out to 830 points, so you still have a few points to spare if you want to include another unit (chariots are always nice), or give magic items to your character or magic banners to your units.

I won't get into much more points detail, as that is sort of frowned upon, but I'd double-check what source you're using for your calculations.

You can actually make a half decent 1000 point list using everything in the battle boxs provided you proxy one of the Marauders as a Sorcerer. Sure they are not the best thing, but in a 1000 points they are okay.


Btw, I also disagree on MoS, it can be pretty useful on fast cav.

Ballinwitstalin, thanks for the heads up, incidentally I was using army builder software, but I will be receiving the new army book in a few days so I will write another army list then, in the meantime anymore comments on the general composition of the list are welcome

 welshhoppo wrote:
You can actually make a half decent 1000 point list using everything in the battle boxs provided you proxy one of the Marauders as a Sorcerer. Sure they are not the best thing, but in a 1000 points they are okay.


Btw, I also disagree on MoS, it can be pretty useful on fast cav.

I made a MoS list with that theme that was very fun. And yes, that's where it's useful. It's just much more of a niche thing, and not really good to start off with. But yes, I'd agree with you on that.

BallinWitStalin wrote:
the good news is that even if you kit out every unit with full command groups and the best equipment possible (except for the warhounds, which you always want naked) and have your sorcerer a lvl 2, you army list will come out to 830 points, so you still have a few points to spare if you want to include another unit (chariots are always nice), or give magic items to your character or magic banners to your units.

I won't get into much more points detail, as that is sort of frowned upon, but I'd double-check what source you're using for your calculations.

Thanks again Ballin, but I have got a couple of questions to ask...
How many chariots would you suggest to include?
And by 'best equipment possible' what do you mean? Do you mean halberds or shields or great weapons or anything else...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And are there specific pieces of equipment that you also give to a unit? Thanks

ElfHound wrote:

BallinWitStalin wrote:
the good news is that even if you kit out every unit with full command groups and the best equipment possible (except for the warhounds, which you always want naked) and have your sorcerer a lvl 2, you army list will come out to 830 points, so you still have a few points to spare if you want to include another unit (chariots are always nice), or give magic items to your character or magic banners to your units.

I won't get into much more points detail, as that is sort of frowned upon, but I'd double-check what source you're using for your calculations.

Thanks again Ballin, but I have got a couple of questions to ask...
How many chariots would you suggest to include?
And by 'best equipment possible' what do you mean? Do you mean halberds or shields or great weapons or anything else...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And are there specific pieces of equipment that you also give to a unit? Thanks

Well, you can really only get 1 additional chariot. You could make it a regular chariot, or a gorebeast. Regular chariots are core, gorebeasts special. Gorebeast are better (+1 toughness and wounds, which is a big deal). Not to say that core chariots are bad, they're great too. Gorebeasts are just better, although they are slow as hell, so it depends on what you want to use them for. You'd want to mark the chariots as Nurgle, it's hands down the best mark for them. They become very tough to kill in close combat (gorebeast chariots especially). For initially expanding your army size, regular chariots might be nice as an investment as well, as they can fill out your core points requirements for larger games nicely.

As for best equipment, I mean giving your chaos warriors a mark, shields, and an upgraded weapon. What weapon you want will depend on the mark you give them, but the combination of the two will depend on what you want their role to be. Tzeentch warriors with hand weapons and shields (the cheapest marked warriors) are durable, with a 5+ ward save in close combat. The mark of Tzeentch gives them a 6+ ward save, but it improves existing ward saves. Since they have a hand weapon/shield, they already get a 6+ parry ward save in close combat, so it improves to 5+. With a 3+ armour save and a 5+ ward, they're resilient. If you are facing warmachine heavy armies, you can also give your sorcerer the ironcurse icon, which is a cheap magic item that gives a 6+ ward save against warmachine attacks to a character and the unit he is with. Since you plan on putting the sorcerer in the unit, if it's Marked with Tzeentch the unit now gets a 5+ ward save against warmachines. It's pretty handy vs. many armies, like dwarves.

Nurgle marks make your guys harder to hit in close combat, attacking troops get a -1 to hit. From a functional perspective, that's pretty similar in resiliency to the Tzeentch guys in close combat. -1 to hit at WS5 results in a lot of additional misses, which are functionally the same as (if not better than) 5+ ward saves. Where Nurgle becomes different in in their weapons. Since they don't benefit as much from the shield in close combat (a 6+ ward save is a lot shittier than 5+ for a ward save), you can often drop it in favour of halberds or great weapons. Then the unit becomes a LOT nastier in combat from an offensive perspective. Usually you keep the shields on them anyways to give them a 3+ armour save from shooting, they just can't use them in close combat with the two-handed weapons. However, the shield and the halberds/great weapons makes them more expensive points wise compared to Tzeentch. Their armour save is 4+ in close combat with the two-handed weapons, but their real protection comes from the -1 to hit. Whether halberds or great weapons depends on who/what you're fighting. Against elves, monsters, or knight heavy armies you'll probably want the great weapons. Elves will always strike before you, so you might as well have the extra strength. Against monsters, strength 6 is a lot better than 5 to punch through the high toughness, and against high armour you need the -3 armour save modifier over the -2 from a halberd. Against most other stuff I tend to favour halberds. Against lizardmen or ogres, for example, you'll be facing similar sized blocks of saurus/Temple guard. You'll probably end up with at least one "grind" combat (temple guard with a slann are stubborn leadership 9/10 re-rollable on three dice taking the two lowest when making leadership tests, they aren't going anywhere) and striking first makes a huge difference there, as killing their guys first results in fewer attacks against you once you get past the first initial rounds of combat.

Khorne guys are your real offensive powerhouses. Since they have frenzy, you get an extra attack on the first rank in close combat. In units ranked six wide, you'll be punching out 24 attacks. They will mow down most other units. Typically people give them halberds, although in some matches you might as well just give them great weapons as well (see above). Also people tend to give them shields to help get them into combat safely. Again, they are more expensive than Tzeentch, but have a lot more hitting power. Watch out for Frenzy, though, it's a double edged sword. Experienced players will try to force charges out of you with chaff, and that will just make the unit useless (use your dogs as screeners to prevent this). If you're frenzied and there's a unit in charge range, you have to take a leadership test. If you fail, then they are FORCED to attempt a charge, and experienced players will use this to bait the unit into a corner and force it to do nothing all game. Also, if you engage a unit and force it to flee, you HAVE to pursue when frenzied, and experienced players will use this to again force your unit out of position (i.e. they'll throw something cheap in the way they don't care about dying, e.g. warhound equivalents, and then you have to prsue into a bad position). Frenzy can be both good and bad. Oh yeah, and if you lose a combat you lose the frenzy. It's not likely to happen with 24 strength 5 attacks, but if you lose the frenzy Khorne are kinda fethed as they don't have the resiliency of the other marks.

Never give the mark of Slaanesh to chaos warriors. Just don't. It's not worth it, compared to how awesome the other marks are.

I tend to dislike Khorne (I'm still fairly inexperienced, so I struggle with deployment and mitigating the crappy aspects of frenzy). Nurgle are what I would consider my bread-and-butter mark, but you can do some cool stuff with Tzeentch as well, and they are a lot cheaper due to not needing as much equipment upgrades. When you have blocks of 18-24 warriors, those extra points can add up.

Oh yeah, as far as marks for the knights go the same general rules apply. Nurgle improves their durability a lot with the -1 to hit, and in my opinion is probably the best mark for the knights. Khorne gives them an extra 5 attacks, which makes them pretty killy. However, you need to watch out for the charge baiting/forced pursuit, and in knights that are on your flank it can be a huge problem. Tzeentch is a good mark, but only because it allows you to take the blasted standard, which is a situationally awesome magic banner. I won't explain that one, you'll have to read it when you get the book yourself, but suffice to say that against war machines (i.e. cannons, bolt throwers) it's fantastic, but against small arms fire it actually sucks and you'll end up taking more wounds than if you didn't have it. It's situationally good. Finally, Slaanesh isn't actually that bad on knights, as if you're putting them on a flank with a lot of screening warhounds it prevents them from having to take panic tests when the warhounds inevitably die/flee past them. If the knights are on a flank, they won't get a re-roll with your BSB, so this is not a trivial issue. However, as with warriors, the other marks are usually just much better in general. Nurgle is my go-to mark of Knights. As for equipping knights, you can either give them lances or ensorcelled weapons. Lances are +2 strength on the charge, ensorcelled are a constant +1 strength. Ensorcelled are, in my opinion, almost always better, as the steadfast rule often makes it so that combats last more than a single round (your knights will almost always be outranked).

Mister Stalin is pretty spot on, well said.

A few notes. Nurgle versus Tzeentch in close combat, Nurgle is strictly better than the ward save in any gear configuration. Tzeentch gives you a chance to brush aside a few ranged shots, whereas Nurgle does nothing against ranged. That's the trade-off.

Also, there's a bit too much emphasis on that '+1 ward save' that sounds so nice when you 'combo' it. Getting a 5++ parry sounds great... but if you didn't have parry, you'd still have a 6++. Ironcurse would still give you 6++. It sounds a lot better when you bump it up by one, but when you do the math, you're only saving one out of every six guys that would otherwise be dead if you took Tzeentch vs even unmarked. When you only have 18 guys in a unit, you'll probably save one throughout the game unless the unit's gotten obliterated (in which case whoo hoo, three dudes saved wouldn't have made the difference).

For Khorne, if you have a flying BSB plopping himself where he needs to be, you'll rarely miss your leadership checks due to the reroll on leadership 8 or 9. The forced overrun/pursuit is a little trickier, but that's why you always give Khorne units musicians for a quick reform after the fact. Definitely a downside, but it's worth it imo.

New list:
Lvl 2 sorcerer
10x Warhounds
5x Knights, full command, ensorcelled weapons MoN
17x Warriors, full command, halberds MoN
Gorebeast Chariot

I don't have the points values but this should work

 Evertras wrote:
Mister Stalin is pretty spot on, well said.

A few notes. Nurgle versus Tzeentch in close combat, Nurgle is strictly better than the ward save in any gear configuration. Tzeentch gives you a chance to brush aside a few ranged shots, whereas Nurgle does nothing against ranged. That's the trade-off.

Also, there's a bit too much emphasis on that '+1 ward save' that sounds so nice when you 'combo' it. Getting a 5++ parry sounds great... but if you didn't have parry, you'd still have a 6++. Ironcurse would still give you 6++. It sounds a lot better when you bump it up by one, but when you do the math, you're only saving one out of every six guys that would otherwise be dead if you took Tzeentch vs even unmarked. When you only have 18 guys in a unit, you'll probably save one throughout the game unless the unit's gotten obliterated (in which case whoo hoo, three dudes saved wouldn't have made the difference).

For Khorne, if you have a flying BSB plopping himself where he needs to be, you'll rarely miss your leadership checks due to the reroll on leadership 8 or 9. The forced overrun/pursuit is a little trickier, but that's why you always give Khorne units musicians for a quick reform after the fact. Definitely a downside, but it's worth it imo.

In general I agree, Nurgle probably is better than Tzeentch. There's just a few tricks that I like with Tzeentch guys that just work out well from a points efficiency perspective (e.g. giving a Tzeentch BSB a talisman of preservation and an ironcurse icon in the unit, which works out exactly to 50 points, whereas a Nurgle BSB on foot doesn't allow for an ironcurse with a decent kit-out, although you'd probably end up going a Tzeentch disk BSB in most circumstances anyways). The circumstances are pretty niche, though, and really dependent on your overall army structure. For example, I *think* that Tzeentch guys are actually better against toughness 7 monsters (e.g. soul grinders, phoenixes) than Nurgle dudes with halberds. However, I would definitely say that the majority of the time Nurgle is better.

Also, as for your updated new list, make the gorebeast Nurgle and give your Nurgle chaos warriors shields (you've got the points) and I think you've also still got enough points for a 40 point magic item(s), chaos mutation, or a mark for your sorcerer. An enchanted shield, mark of Nurgle, and a dispel scroll on him will make him pretty durable and useful to boot (-1 to hit, 2+ armour save, and a free spell dispel).

Oh for sure on the BSB, but that's because you can get a nice save against ranged attacks, which is super important for a lone model where Nurgle would do nothing for you. Plus the disk. I love me some disk.

17x warriors MoN, full command, halberds,shields
5x Knights, ensorcelled weapons, MoN, full command
Gorebeast Chariot, MoN
Lvl 2 sorcerer, MoN, enchanted shield, dispel scroll
10x Warhounds

The new list

ElfHound wrote:
17x warriors MoN, full command, halberds,shields
5x Knights, ensorcelled weapons, MoN, full command
Gorebeast Chariot, MoN
Lvl 2 sorcerer, MoN, enchanted shield, dispel scroll

The new list

That is legitimately a hard hitting but really durable 1000 point list. Have fun!

Edit: Also, don't forget the 10 warhounds!

Warriors is one of (if not THE) strongest books in the game. Tomb Kings are near the bottom, whilst Vampires are solidly mid-tier. There's basically nothing in the book you could take that wouldn't do quite well, so instead of telling you what to take I'll tell you what NOT to take in order to have a good time.

A) Demon Princes. Specifically demon princes with chaos armour+scaly skin + charmed shield for a 1+ save, soul feeder to get wounds back, mark of nurgle to make the enemy hit him on 6's, dragonbane gem to make him immune to lore of metal and screaming skull catapults, and sword of striking to maximize his S6 combat goodness. This is the cookie-cutter build, it's tough to deal with, and nobody really enjoys playing against it. Especially when you put 4 levels of death on it and fly around throwing purple suns down the enemy's lines.

B) Chimeras. One chimera is no big deal, but three chimeras is fething stupid. These guys should have been rare, but instead they're undercosted, over-protected (4+4++ basically), and have obscene damage output against infantry. People can take down 1 or 2, but 3 will get into your lines and it's really tough to stop them once they're there.

C) Skullcrushers. They're the best monstrous cavalry in the game (though demi gryphs are slightly more cost-effective), and utterly wreck face. There is practically nothing in the tomb kings army that can effectively deal with them in the hands of a good player, and they smash through most of the vampires' best tools as well.

D) Giant bricks of chaos warriors/chosen. These are called "death stars" and they're about as fun to play against as chewing on broken glass. The de-facto strategy is "chaff it so it can't do anything, kill everything else, hit it with everything or just run away." Don't be that guy.

E) Nuthin' but chariots. Chaos core chariots are amazing. Gorebeast chariots are amazing. One or two are cool tools. Nothing but chariots is ridiculous. It'll devastate some opponents while being particularly un-fun for others to play against.

F) Unkillable Tzeentch character. Talisman of Preservation+mark of tzeentch+third eye of tzeentch gives your character a 3++ save that rerolls 1s, making it effectively a 2++. Put that on a BSB riding a demonic steed and now he's immune to stomps and killing blow as well. Chaos Armour + mounted + enchanted shield gives you a 1+ vs shooting as well (though a 3+ in combat, since you only get a great weapon). Worse yet is to put it on a lord riding a disc (flying) with the stubborn crown. Now he can tie up any unit you want, and he's not going anywhere on stubborn 9. This means you can't take a demon prince though, so the BSB build is actually more effective.


The "net list" build is demon prince + 3 chimeras + 2 units of skull crushers with ensorcelled weapons, divide the rest by the number of chariots you can fit with a few units of dogs thrown in for spice. It is a tremendously un-fun list to play against, and utterly steam rolls lots of armies. Unless you've come equipped with the tools to stop it (which many people do these days), in which case they will know intimately how to dismantle your army and stop it from doing anything. Your friend won't though, so if you start this way you'll just drive him out of the game.

Stepping away from the doom & gloom though, you're gifted with the refreshing ability to pick basically whatever you like out of the book and have something competitive. There is pretty much nothing in the book that you can take that won't be amazing in at least a portion of your games. Like Dragon Ogre Shaggoths? They're not "optimal" choices, but who cares! Run one. Like vortex beasts? Again, not optimal, but whatever. Take it. If you like one of the above choices (other than death stars), then take that too! Just don't take ALL of them.

That makes you "that guy."

Don't be "that guy."

Edit: Because Ballin' pointed out that I'd forgotten some filth

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Warriors is one of (if not THE) strongest books in the game. Tomb Kings are near the bottom, whilst Vampires are solidly mid-tier. There's basically nothing in the book you could take that wouldn't do quite well, so instead of telling you what to take I'll tell you what NOT to take in order to have a good time.

A) Demon Princes. Specifically demon princes with chaos armour+scaly skin + charmed shield for a 1+ save, soul feeder to get wounds back, mark of nurgle to make the enemy hit him on 6's, dragonbane gem to make him immune to lore of metal and screaming skull catapults, and sword of striking to maximize his S6 combat goodness. This is the cookie-cutter build, it's tough to deal with, and nobody really enjoys playing against it. Especially when you put 4 levels of death on it and fly around throwing purple suns down the enemy's lines.

B) Chimeras. One chimera is no big deal, but three chimeras is fething stupid. These guys should have been rare, but instead they're undercosted, over-protected (4+4++ basically), and have obscene damage output against infantry. People can take down 1 or 2, but 3 will get into your lines and it's really tough to stop them once they're there.

C) Skullcrushers. They're the best monstrous cavalry in the game (though demi gryphs are slightly more cost-effective), and utterly wreck face. There is practically nothing in the tomb kings army that can effectively deal with them in the hands of a good player, and they smash through most of the vampires' best tools as well.

D) Giant bricks of chaos warriors/chosen. These are called "death stars" and they're about as fun to play against as chewing on broken glass. The de-facto strategy is "chaff it so it can't do anything, kill everything else, hit it with everything or just run away." Don't be that guy.

E) Nuthin' but chariots. Chaos core chariots are amazing. Gorebeast chariots are amazing. One or two are cool tools. Nothing but chariots is ridiculous. It'll devastate some opponents while being particularly un-fun for others to play against.


The "net list" build is demon prince + 3 chimeras + 2 units of skull crushers with ensorcelled weapons, divide the rest by the number of chariots you can fit with a few units of dogs thrown in for spice. It is a tremendously un-fun list to play against, and utterly steam rolls lots of armies. Unless you've come equipped with the tools to stop it (which many people do these days), in which case they will know intimately how to dismantle your army and stop it from doing anything. Your friend won't though, so if you start this way you'll just drive him out of the game.

Stepping away from the doom & gloom though, you're gifted with the refreshing ability to pick basically whatever you like out of the book and have something competitive. There is pretty much nothing in the book that you can take that won't be amazing in at least a portion of your games. Like Dragon Ogre Shaggoths? They're not "optimal" choices, but who cares! Run one. Like vortex beasts? Again, not optimal, but whatever. Take it. If you like one of the above choices (other than death stars), then take that too! Just don't take ALL of them.

That makes you "that guy."

Don't be "that guy."

You forgot the 1+, 3++ re-rollable stubborn Tzeentch chaos lord

BallinWitStalin wrote:

ElfHound wrote:
17x warriors MoN, full command, halberds,shields
5x Knights, ensorcelled weapons, MoN, full command
Gorebeast Chariot, MoN
Lvl 2 sorcerer, MoN, enchanted shield, dispel scroll

The new list

That is legitimately a hard hitting but really durable 1000 point list. Have fun!

Edit: Also, don't forget the 10 warhounds!

Thanks, I have edited it.

Hi again,
How would I go about making this list into a 1500 or 2000 point list? Are there any units I should definitely include?

Thanks for any replies and all your previous ones.

You should probably drop the Sorcerer and replace him with a BSB. Then bring a Sorcerer Lord.

What character/hero/lord should I use for the BSB?

The classic is a Tzeentch exalted champion mounted on a disc of Tzeentch. Give him the talisman of preservation, and his mark boosts it to a 3+ ward save. Throw on the third eye of Tzeentch, and he has a 3+ ward save that can re-roll ones.

With Chaos armour mounted on a disk he has a default armour save of 3+ as well. You can give him an enchanted shield to give him a 1+ armour save. That is the strongest defensive build. He's got 4 strength 5 attacks, but if you give him a halberd of great weapon you can increase his hitting power a lot and make him a bit of a monster hunter. You can still give him the enchanted shield to give him a 1+ on shooting, but he'll only be 3+ armour save in close combat. Not a huge deal, though, as his 3++ semi-rerollable ward save is the real workhorse keeping this guy alive.

He's tough to kill.

Another one is the Talisman of Preservation, Third Eye of Tzeentch and whatever else you want to throw points on. Then you bung him on a Daemonic Mount. Now your Exhaulted Hero has 3 wounds and T 5 due to the Monstrous Cav rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
17x warriors MoN, full command, halberds,shields
5x Knights, ensorcelled weapons, MoN, full command
Gorebeast Chariot, MoN
Lvl 2 sorcerer, MoN, enchanted shield, dispel scroll
10x Warhounds
Exalted champion of Tzeentech, disk, great weapon, talisman of preservation, third eye of tzeentech, chaos armour

Are there any units I should add at 2000pts?
At 1500 could I still fit in a sorcerer/sorcerer lord?
Thanks for all your replies