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So AV in general is pretty terrible in this edition. The best vehicles generally have a save of some kind or crazy dakk / cost ratios.

So what if AV was re-worked to have an armor save?

I would propose a simple solution that is elegant and easy to remember. All vehicles get a save against Glancing Hits only. Pens would ignore the save and roll on the damage charts as normal.

AV10 = 6+
AV11 = 5+
AV12 = 4+
AV13 = 3+
AV14 = 2+

Vehicles become resistant to being glanced out at a rate that reflects the amount of armor they actually have. Vehicles still have access to cover saves, but they now have something else to rely on in the open against glances. The chance for a pen to destroy a vehicle in one shot is still there, but over all its a more fun experience when both players are rolling a dice.

Land raiders would become very tough, but they should be. Anti tank weapons would become something that list building would have to consider.

Good idea?

I have tried similar things as this. However, we changed it up where AV 10-11 had a 4+, 12-13 had a 3+, and 14 had a 2+. This worked out well for us, IMO. We also changed it up that on a Pen hit you rolled an extra d6, on a 4+ you rolled on the damage chart and the Wrecked effect was just 2 hull points gone instead of 1.

It make it where these large steel beasts didn't have to hide behind cover just to get a save that they should have in the first place.

A few more changes are in the works, like extra armor giving an extra hull point, or making it so that the Pen hit damage would be on a 6 instead of a 4+.

This also helps out Dark Eldar from just getting glanced to death by Bolters, as now they get somewhat of a better save.

Makes wave serpents even more unkillable though. And nerfs haywire weapons alot. Now i see no point in taking witches at all. What about restricting it to non-skimmer tanks only? They're the ones massive enough to have a chance against glancing hits. And probably walkers. Cause regular tanks and walkers are those who need the buff. Skimmers and flyers are fine with their jink saves as it is.

Though, there are gona be some broken combos with nurgle grinders with 2+ or 3+ cover followed by a 3+ save vs glances on av13. Totally unkillable either.

I'd downgrade the table to be av10-12 a 6+ save, 13-14 a 5+ save for the start. Or even av10-13 a 6+, 14 a 5+.

Ow my tentaclids. My poor tentaclids. And my poor Rupture cannons, Venom Cannons, and Impaler cannons! And my BL devourers!

On the other hand my Necrons love this (Av13 wall and Monoliths wheee!), too bad about my gauss weapons and haywire staffs though.


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I also forgot my Orkses, now my AP- deffrollas are useless against AV14.

 koooaei wrote:
Makes wave serpents even more unkillable though. And nerfs haywire weapons alot. Now i see no point in taking witches at all. What about restricting it to non-skimmer tanks only? They're the ones massive enough to have a chance against glancing hits. And probably walkers. Cause regular tanks and walkers are those who need the buff. Skimmers and flyers are fine with their jink saves as it is.

Though, there are gona be some broken combos with nurgle grinders with 2+ or 3+ cover followed by a 3+ save vs glances on av13. Totally unkillable either.

I'd downgrade the table to be av10-12 a 6+ save, 13-14 a 5+ save for the start. Or even av10-13 a 6+, 14 a 5+.

Not sure how it would make serpents more unkillable? You can't take both cover saves and armor saves on anything else so I wouldn't expect them to stack for vehicles.

This is mainly to bring other vehicles up to par with things like serpents.

We do not let the saves stack. It is either the armor or cover.

As for haywire stuff, it rolls on the Pen chart on a 2+. They can really mess up a vehicle without causing the damage to Hull points, unless they roll the Wrecked (6), that causes 2 hull points. So it will immobilize the vehicle and knock out the weapons, but not destroy the vehicle enough to make the infantry (if a transport) to have to get out.

Haywire are pens only on a roll of a 6. 2-5 glances.

Serpents downgrade pens to glances on a roll of 2+ so when is this save decided? Before they roll to downgrade and take covers or after they roll to downgrade? And weapons that ignore cover will face this armor save meaning that ignore cover does nothing vs them.

So basically if they don't stack with cover, no vehicles in cover will ever roll it? Or u'd want to invent a special rule to forego rolling cover saves to roll those armor saves?

Just imagine, an av13 vehicle - barge - has a 5+ jink cover save. And it's shot at with an autocannon. So it rolls a 5+ and can't roll 3+ to save from a glance cause it's forced to roll on a cover save beforehand. So, now weapons with s7 ignore cover ignore that 5+ jink and it now rolls a 3+ save instead. Some awkward mechanics if it doesn't stack. Or vehicles will choose what to roll? Cover or armor. And what about flyers than? They choose to use jink before pens are rolled.


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So much stuff. That's why i'm proposing it to be something like FNP. Rolled in addition to any other stuff that they have. This save depends on AV of the facing you fire at and unit type.

Walkers, Tanks with AV of the facing of 11-13 have a 6+ save against glancing hits.
Tanks with AV of the facing of 14 have a 5+ save against glancing hits.

Skimmers and Flyers can't get this save. (who knows - maybe we'll see flyers with a Tank type one day)

You always take the best possible save, so the Anni barge gets a 3+ save and thus bounces the autocannon off.

This rule does make the shielding on units like Contemptors come into play less but would overall serve to bridge the gap between vehicles and MCs as well as make skimmers less dominating.

AV10-11 is still made of tissue paper though, and this does hurt Gauss and Haywire weapons, along with other anti vehicle guns with bad AP scores like Rupture cannons and Deffrollas.

I think some weapons will need a redo in light of this. And perhaps some vehicles.

Overall it's an easy fix and I like it.

Do this saves ignore AP of weapons? They're invulnerable saves than.

 koooaei wrote:
Do this saves ignore AP of weapons? They're invulnerable saves than.

It's an armor save.

Autocannons are AP4 and thus would deflect off an Annihilation barge's 3+ save.

And what's the ap of haywire weapons than. Like witche's grenades.

So, you tell me that a barge is gona get 3+ saves against wagon'z deffrolla? First it's gona roll an evade ofcourse. 4+ or 5+ that is?

Most haywire weapons are Ap -.

Haywire is something of a special attack. I know how the game mechanics work for it. But the "fluff" is that they disrupt the systems of the vehicles, not damage them. So as most grenades have an AP, the haywire doesn't pierce the armor, it attacks the systems.

With the "new" idea of adding armor saves, it requires some tweaking of other things as well.

So haywire can destroy weapons and engines, but doesn't make holes in the vehicle.