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NO, they are a bad idea, in fact NEVER use them. Particularly when fighting Sisters of Battle. Bad, Bad, Bad! Never, Never, NEVER!

If you are taking IF and you are taking a bastion. Why would you even consider ML/LC cents when you can take 3 ~bs5 and 1 bs9 tankhunting lascannons for about half the price if the bastion has an ammo dump? That's far greater accuracy than tl bs4 and you get an extra bs9 st9 ap2 tankhunting shot. The only thing you lose out on is 3 krak missiles.

Think about it this way:
3 grav cents with ml/lc, omniscope
Bastion with quad
Naked inquisitor (cheapest IC avaliable to fire the quad)
490pts
This gives - 3 tl bs4 lascannon shots, 3 tl bs4 krak missile shots, 4 tl bs4 quad gun shots, all tank hunter, with split fire.

OR
5 devestators with lascannons (in bastion)
5 devestators with lascannons (on bastion)
Bastion with quad gun and ammo dump
490pts
This gives - 3 ~bs5 lascannon shots, 1 bs9 lascannon shot, 1 bs5 lascannon shot, 3 bs4 lascannon shots, 4 tl bs4 quad gun shots, all tank hunter and can shoot at 2 different units.
Admittedly 5 of the models can be shot at behind a 4+ cover save. But for the exact same points you have a massively greater firepower.

 ansacs wrote:

Actually you don't need that much. With a serpent out in the open 3 LC/ML cents have about an even chance to explode or HP strip the serpent. With holo fields (which are not cost effective as people indicate as CWE, Tau, and AM can all ignore cover on long range anti tank) the cents will average 2 HP .

3 cents fire 3 lazcannons - 2 hit, 1 gets through if the serpent's in the open, if it's in 3+ cover, around 2/3 to get through, you pen on a 4+ and glance on a 3, with tankhunter that provides rerolls that's around 8/9 to do something. From 3 lazcannons it's <1HP
Now let's look at gravs. 15 shots - 10 hit, with 6+ rerollable that's exactly 3 HP. That ignore cover vs vehicles. With guaranteed immobilize if you roll poorly. And note, that's 3 HP and immobilize vs ANY vehicle you can hit on a 3+.

Now let's count vs Wraithknights.
Lazcannons: 3 shots, 2 hit, 4/3 wound, let's say they're in 5+ cover - with silly mc cover rules it's easy - 8/9 wounds - almost 1 wound
Gravs: 15 shots, 10 hit, 20/3 wound, after 5+ cover it's 40/9 which is 4.44 wounds - around 4-5 wounds.

That's the difference between a slightly wounded knight that's gona be fully operational and threatening for at least a couple of turns and to be put down will require shooting from the rest of your army and an almost dead one which requires a couple of shots to lay down.

Yep, with a lazcannon you get a chance to explode a serpent, which is 1/3 IF the serpent chose to shoot the shield. They don't alwayz do it. The only drawback of gravz that i see is that they got 24 range meaning only 30 threat range. If you can overcome it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's a gravstar and not LC-star for a reason.

I pack 3 cents with TLML/TLLC when I play my crimson fists, works out great for me.

koooaei wrote:3 cents fire 3 lazcannons - 2 hit, 1 gets through if the serpent's in the open, if it's in 3+ cover, around 2/3 to get through, you pen on a 4+ and glance on a 3, with tankhunter that provides rerolls that's around 8/9 to do something. From 3 lazcannons it's <1HP
Now let's look at gravs. 15 shots - 10 hit, with 6+ rerollable that's exactly 3 HP. That ignore cover vs vehicles. With guaranteed immobilize if you roll poorly. And note, that's 3 HP and immobilize vs ANY vehicle you can hit on a 3+.

Your math is not correct. On any level. Try this;
http://www.mathhammer40k.com/shooting/armor
ie TL LC to hit is 8/9 to hit, or 2.7 hits, LC vs AV12 with tank hunters is 8/9 chance to glance+Penetrate, or 2.4 HP, after 5+ cover (ie 2/3 chance to strip an HP), 1.6 HP with the LC's alone...so less than 1?

The correct answer for a 5+ cover save AV12 vehicle should be 2.6 HP average and 49% chance to explode.

koooaei wrote:Now let's count vs Wraithknights.
Lazcannons: 3 shots, 2 hit, 4/3 wound, let's say they're in 5+ cover - with silly mc cover rules it's easy - 8/9 wounds - almost 1 wound
Gravs: 15 shots, 10 hit, 20/3 wound, after 5+ cover it's 40/9 which is 4.44 wounds - around 4-5 wounds.

That's the difference between a slightly wounded knight that's gona be fully operational and threatening for at least a couple of turns and to be put down will require shooting from the rest of your army and an almost dead one which requires a couple of shots to lay down.

Now the fact that grav cannons are superior against wraithknights is definitely true.

Grav centurions are highly useful, though only if you have a delivery method or expensive tanking characters so they can get to their target. This doesn't automatically invalidate IF dev cents.

Also the centurion star is less about grav cents and more about the combine effects of numerous USRs and ICs. There are many deathstars featuring those exact characters as they boost units offensive and defensive abilities to stupid levels.

When was the last time you're seen a serpent with 5+ cover and not 4+ or 3+?

Yep, i forgot they're twin-linked, sorry. Still, it's around 1-2 HP at best.

 ansacs wrote:

koooaei wrote:3 cents fire 3 lazcannons - 2 hit, 1 gets through if the serpent's in the open, if it's in 3+ cover, around 2/3 to get through, you pen on a 4+ and glance on a 3, with tankhunter that provides rerolls that's around 8/9 to do something. From 3 lazcannons it's <1HP
Now let's look at gravs. 15 shots - 10 hit, with 6+ rerollable that's exactly 3 HP. That ignore cover vs vehicles. With guaranteed immobilize if you roll poorly. And note, that's 3 HP and immobilize vs ANY vehicle you can hit on a 3+.

Your math is not correct. On any level. Try this;
http://www.mathhammer40k.com/shooting/armor
ie TL LC to hit is 8/9 to hit, or 2.7 hits, LC vs AV12 with tank hunters is 8/9 chance to glance+Penetrate, or 2.4 HP, after 5+ cover (ie 2/3 chance to strip an HP), 1.6 HP with the LC's alone...so less than 1?

The correct answer for a 5+ cover save AV12 vehicle should be 2.6 HP average and 49% chance to explode.

koooaei wrote:Now let's count vs Wraithknights.
Lazcannons: 3 shots, 2 hit, 4/3 wound, let's say they're in 5+ cover - with silly mc cover rules it's easy - 8/9 wounds - almost 1 wound
Gravs: 15 shots, 10 hit, 20/3 wound, after 5+ cover it's 40/9 which is 4.44 wounds - around 4-5 wounds.

That's the difference between a slightly wounded knight that's gona be fully operational and threatening for at least a couple of turns and to be put down will require shooting from the rest of your army and an almost dead one which requires a couple of shots to lay down.

Now the fact that grav cannons are superior against wraithknights is definitely true.

Grav centurions are highly useful, though only if you have a delivery method or expensive tanking characters so they can get to their target. This doesn't automatically invalidate IF dev cents.

Also the centurion star is less about grav cents and more about the combine effects of numerous USRs and ICs. There are many deathstars featuring those exact characters as they boost units offensive and defensive abilities to stupid levels.

I was trying to fit either Lysander or a Chapter Master to provide the protection the Grav Cents would need but since it was a small detachment I couldn't afford them which is why I went to a Librarian who could help support using psyker abilities. I already have expensive units being a GK and couldn't shave anywhere without leaving a huge gap in effective tactics with my GK portion.

To me this sounds like people try and make Grav Cents in a TAC unit without taking into account other portions of an army. The IF LC/ML Cents are really good at taking out mech portions of an army but you loose the sheer devastating power of being able to annihilate huge swaths of enemy infantry and MCs that come knocking on your door while the regular Grav Cents which everyone else takes are good at the latter and are decent at taking out vehicles because you have 15 shots to make how many ever 6s to knock off HP to kill it. With re-rolls because of the Grav amp possible, this becomes slightly more effective but it still might fail. Also, look at the threat range, it is half of what the LC/ML Cents have and need to get there which means you loose a couple turns trying to get there or you have to spend points in order to protect/deliver them. In either case, there are positives and there are negatives to the point I don't think either is totally right in all cases. As someone pointed out earlier, his Daemon army wiped the floor with Grav Cents.

What really needs to be done here is an evaluation of what an army lacks and then make the decision on how best to equip the Centurions to fit into an army. For example, as I have said, I am a GK player, infantry and MCs I have covered with storm bolters on everyone, incinerators (str 6 ap 4 flamers), psycannons and force weapons. What I lack is a good amount of anti-armor with psyriflemen dreadnoughts my best options but taking DKs limites this usually to one if I want to take 2 DKs. This is where the LC/ML Cents come in because they fill that hole a lot better then just taking the Grav Cents.

As I pointed out before I am considering magnetizing the weapons, not just to try out different templates but also in case I want to make a full IF army down the line. Even then I would consider taking two sets of Cents, one outfitted with grav, the other with LC/ML.

koooaei wrote:When was the last time you're seen a serpent with 5+ cover and not 4+ or 3+?

Yep, i forgot they're twin-linked, sorry. Still, it's around 1-2 HP at best.

I would say ~75% of the time. I play AM (ignore cover orders), CWE (serpent shields), SM bikers and scouts (so charging is common), FMC Daemons (vector strikes and charging), and CSM (vector strikes and charging). Also Tau is not uncommon (Markerlights on skyrays). I also have 4 good sized building but only 2 small ruins. So in don't see holo fields that often, most people don't turbo boost and waste the shooting, and having more building than ruins means sitting in ruins is not likely to give good fire lanes.

I also don't see the serpent shield up much past turn 1. Very simply most CWE serpent spam lists get the majority of their firepower from their waveserpents. Not shooting them leaves me unmolested and means I can afford to take 2 turns to pop a serpent...heck this leaves me killing 2-3 serpents a game per dev cent unit

I do agree though that grav cents are great. However I would argue (and agree with other posters) that the decision is not clear cut and should be based on list and meta.

Also if you are taking grav cents you have to take one or several of a few select other things to enable them as they are not sturdy enough nor fast enough alone.
-Shield Eternal Chapter Master to tank wounds
-Gate of Infinity (either Tiggy or Lloth)
-Stormraven to sky of fury them onto the board
-Khan+landraider to scout them up
-Fortification building+escape tunnel to "shunt" them forward ~24" turn 1

IF LC/ML cents are essentially self sufficient.

Also our discussion about waveserpents is somewhat silly as using grav cents outside a cent star (in which case you don't have enough pts to not use them) to kill a waveserpent is a pretty bad trade as you will be trading a 190+ pts HS unit for a ~130 pts dedicated transport waveserpent and cannot even explode it so the unit inside will die. You are much better off using the unit against the wraithknight (like you said they are great against wraithknights).

 ansacs wrote:

koooaei wrote:When was the last time you're seen a serpent with 5+ cover and not 4+ or 3+?

Yep, i forgot they're twin-linked, sorry. Still, it's around 1-2 HP at best.

I would say ~75% of the time. I play AM (ignore cover orders), CWE (serpent shields), SM bikers and scouts (so charging is common), FMC Daemons (vector strikes and charging), and CSM (vector strikes and charging).

IIRC we were talking about sm ranged support. The fact that AM and Tau ignore cover doesn't help lazcannon centurions in any way. Neither do sm bikes and scouts with fmc.

OP pretty nailed it. Magnetize and see what's best for you.

Just a quick note - if you plan on magnetizing your cents (which is absolutely a great idea) I recommend googling how first. The parts are quite small, and the place the magnets need to go is not level. There are some great tutorials out there though that really helped me, and mine worked out quite well though I have only done the grav cannons so far.

As far as playing them, I have only run them in 2 games so far and both times with grav cannons. They are AMAZING. Really, I have rarely seen any marine unit able to do that much damage in a single volley. They are situational and surprisingly fragile though (in some situations) but when you get them where they need to be... ouch...

Magnetizing is the one thing I worry about right now since this will be the first time I am going to do it. I just got my cents in yesterday too. I keep going back and forth about whether I want to do it or not because I have been thinking of adding this Imperial Fist detachment for a while.

Looking at just the assembly booklet that came with it, the task looks daunting especially for someone who has never done magnetized something and then chooses to do it with an assembly like this.

If you are worried about magnetizing you can use bluetac in the short term just so they will stick in place.

I have done some watching of tutorials online and sought some advice locally, and everyone assures me it's not as difficult as it looks like.

I took Missile Launchers on my Grav Cents. Fire Frag Missiles on low Armor save armies, and kraks and marines / light vehicles / FMCs.

Not so good against 2+ saves, but there isn't that much 2+ saves out there. Besides, if you hit 2+ saves, the 15 - 30 Grav Cannon shots will be more than enough overkill for them.

So basically, what you are saying is that if I can fit it in, the ML is always better than the Hurricane Bolters even with Bolter Drills if I can fit it? Well, it also gives me some power against vehicles if I take the Grav Cannons so yeah.

One missile launcher is nice for the range boost (may be moot in 7ed) however the ML are overall a bad choice for the grav cents. You pay points to make your firepower worse against the stuff the grav doesn't kill and against the stuff the grav kills 3 S8 AP3 shots are not going to do a lot. Yes 3 S4 AP6 small blasts is much worse than 9-18 BS4 TL S4 AP5 shots, example: the hurricane bolters will average 5-11 dead GEQ a turn whereas the frags will average 2-3. Frag missiles are just comically bad. Krak are not great but with tank hunters they are at least decent. The problem being that if your grav cents are out in the open firing then should be doing so with their grav, which doesn't need the help from the krak missiles, remember that the first glance immobilizes the vehicle so the second glance is taking 2 HP (so 3 HP total, wrecked). The only time the grav will need help is when the opponent doesn't bring any vehicles nor Sv4+ or better. In which case the hurricane bolters are what you need.

Bolter drill has absolutely no effect as hurricane bolters are 3 TL bolters. You already reroll all misses so rerolling 1's to hit means nothing.

I took one missile launcher in 6th for the additional kill range.

However with that changing in 7th I will be dropping it and saving 10 points.

Missile Launchers are mostly for the Long Ranged firepower they add, so they aren't completely worthless if they are out of range of something. Since they are S&P, they can't run, which means they might spend a turn or two out of range if you do not have the capability to teleport them.

If you are always within 24", sure, the Missile Launchers aren't the best choice. But, generally on the first turn, you are going to be out of range - might as well add some throw weight.

This is especially true if you go first - anyone with a brain will keep anything they like living 31" away from the Cents turn one.

But yes, in hypothetical land where you are always in range of the Grav Guns/Hurricane Bolters, the Hurricane bolters are better than the missile launchers.

Crazyterran wrote:
Missile Launchers are mostly for the Long Ranged firepower they add, so they aren't completely worthless if they are out of range of something. Since they are S&P, they can't run, which means they might spend a turn or two out of range if you do not have the capability to teleport them.

If you are always within 24", sure, the Missile Launchers aren't the best choice. But, generally on the first turn, you are going to be out of range - might as well add some throw weight.

This is especially true if you go first - anyone with a brain will keep anything they like living 31" away from the Cents turn one.

But yes, in hypothetical land where you are always in range of the Grav Guns/Hurricane Bolters, the Hurricane bolters are better than the missile launchers.

Ehh for that 1 turn where it matters I would rather spend the 30 points and find an additional 10 and give them the inq with scout book.

I'm giving them the scout book too, but there's always the potential that your opponent can stay out of your range turn one. And if chaff like Cultists are the only thing in range, I'd rather shoot at something else that needs to feel pain rather than be forced to waste a turn on cultists with the Cents.

I was going to give them bolters to begin with, as well, but the added bonuses for Missile Launchers are just enough that they are worth the ten points. If it was fifteen like Devastators, I'd say no, but... I play enough Marines, Eldar and Necrons that having extra bolters isn't to magical.

So this also basically means, magnetize the Hurricane bolters and ML to swap back and forth.

I totally forgot about that Scout book that my Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can take, with that it does give me a better chance of getting Grav Cents in firing range from turn one so this just makes me want to try out both strategies now. See which works out and what doesn't. I know my Psyfileman Dreadnought just failed me yesterday and if I had other heavy weapons to take vehicles, I wouldn't of been wiped out as hard as I was.

Grav cents with a 30 inch range, kinda easy to avoid. Grav cents with a 36 inch range, not so much.

One of these days I want to throw a unit in a land raider in a Khan army so now they have a 12 inch scout, 6 inch move and 6 inch deploy(depending on how things change in 7th)

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I pack 3 cents with TLML/TLLC when I play my crimson fists, works out great for me.

Yep, not since 4e Broadsides has there been an infantry model under 100 points so good at popping tanks from across the board.

Crazyterran wrote:Missile Launchers are mostly for the Long Ranged firepower they add, so they aren't completely worthless if they are out of range of something. Since they are S&P, they can't run, which means they might spend a turn or two out of range if you do not have the capability to teleport them.

If you are always within 24", sure, the Missile Launchers aren't the best choice. But, generally on the first turn, you are going to be out of range - might as well add some throw weight.

This is especially true if you go first - anyone with a brain will keep anything they like living 31" away from the Cents turn one.

But yes, in hypothetical land where you are always in range of the Grav Guns/Hurricane Bolters, the Hurricane bolters are better than the missile launchers.

I would say if you are not taking grav cents with either gate of infinity, escape tunnel building, or stormraven to skies of fury them in you should at the least give them a khan scouting landraider. Lacking that then you are going to have to take a shield eternal chapter master to even hope to keep them alive so you are almost halfway to a full blown centurion star. Honestly in my experiences grav centurions outside a centurion star usually only get 1 turn of full strength firepower and if they are extremely lucky AND the terrain is particularly good then they might get another turn with 1 centurion firing. Therefore I will drop them within 24" of something every time so my super expensive unit gets more than 3 krak missiles off before catching hell, I don't play centurion star though.

I guess I could see the ML in a quasi centurion star with a buffmander and shield eternal chapter master but without tiggy and scout. Not sure why you would do it but I could see it making sense then.

BTW 30" from the center of the board is 82% of the board's surface area.

 ansacs wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:Missile Launchers are mostly for the Long Ranged firepower they add, so they aren't completely worthless if they are out of range of something. Since they are S&P, they can't run, which means they might spend a turn or two out of range if you do not have the capability to teleport them.

If you are always within 24", sure, the Missile Launchers aren't the best choice. But, generally on the first turn, you are going to be out of range - might as well add some throw weight.

This is especially true if you go first - anyone with a brain will keep anything they like living 31" away from the Cents turn one.

But yes, in hypothetical land where you are always in range of the Grav Guns/Hurricane Bolters, the Hurricane bolters are better than the missile launchers.

I would say if you are not taking grav cents with either gate of infinity, escape tunnel building, or stormraven to skies of fury them in you should at the least give them a khan scouting landraider. Lacking that then you are going to have to take a shield eternal chapter master to even hope to keep them alive so you are almost halfway to a full blown centurion star. Honestly in my experiences grav centurions outside a centurion star usually only get 1 turn of full strength firepower and if they are extremely lucky AND the terrain is particularly good then they might get another turn with 1 centurion firing. Therefore I will drop them within 24" of something every time so my super expensive unit gets more than 3 krak missiles off before catching hell, I don't play centurion star though.

I guess I could see the ML in a quasi centurion star with a buffmander and shield eternal chapter master but without tiggy and scout. Not sure why you would do it but I could see it making sense then.

BTW 30" from the center of the board is 82% of the board's surface area.

I got a swift reminder this weekend about how 24" can ruin a units capability and how quickly AP2 weaponry can still rip through a unit and considering a Centurion doesn't have a Invul save, that could spell doom. I think I am going to magnetize still but for my allied detachment, I can only see me using the ML/LC set-up that lets them sit in the back. If I ever get around to making a full SM, I could see myself using the Grav Cents because then I would have Lysander leading the charge but at the same time I would two to take advantage of the Sentinels of Terra additional rules.

So now that the GK get Gate of Infinity in Sanctic Daemonology and seeing that they are now Battle Brothers with Space Marines, my inability to teleport the Centurions has just been solved and even more reason to magnetize the weapons has become greater.

You can get a short range 12 inch teleport without scatter in telekinesis which I would argue is as good if not better since you dont scatter.

I like that tree as well for the most part so consider looking at it as well.

Just remember that deny the witch might allow the opponent to stop the strategy in it's tracks.

Psychic powers are not something you can easily count on now.