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I figured I should share this even though the formatting is kind of rough. This spreed sheet tells you the chances of a pask punisher to explode a given AV value with a given save, the average HP stripped from said vehicle, and the average wounds done to a given toughness and armour save. I don't usually share google docs so if it cannot be downloaded please let me know. Also if I messed up a column let me know (possible as it took way to much time to input).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ILFcqTeFuW9FrWLRv1-fuxKzcODRR9ulwx_IZcOqSoQ/edit?usp=sharing

After doing this I found out that most people are drastically underestimating the pask punisher's damage output against MCs and vehicles while simultaneously over estimating it's abilities against infantry (which is actually where it is weakest as they tend to cost less per wound). The only vehicles that it doesn't average a kill a turn is a landraider (2-3 HP a turn depending on TL or not), flyers (2 HP and 30% chance to explode with prescience), and the toughest of SH's (aka Imperial Knights w/ shields). Waveserpents are on average dead even with a holo field (~3 HP and 40% explodes) and if you get an imperial knight without it's shield up then it is probably dead (~5 HP and 50% chance to explode).

Edited due to error in rules comprehension (I was sleepy? I guess)
Against MCs pask is still very brutal but he will require some support to finish the target. Most Daemon MCs will take ~5 wounds which will probably kill them. Most Nid MCs will take ~4 wounds which is most of the way dead and leaves only ~2 wounds to chip off with a plasmacutioner or perhaps lascannon and MM also on the pask punisher. Wraithknights and riptides will take ~3 and ~2.5 wounds respectively which will leave them somewhere around half dead. This is enough damage that it would make it a risky proposition for either of these to come within 30" of a pask punisher. These wound totals also make for a good argument that a plasmacutioner and lascannon/MM setup would push the total wounds up averaging a kill (ie WK would be ~6 wounds average and riptide would be ~6 wounds)

I am not saying this is the only choice or even necessarily the best choice but to properly talk about such a tank we should understand what it should do. I also completely ignored the lascannons, heavy bolters, etc. as they are easy to mathhammer while the rending, PE, "tank hunter" punisher cannon is not.

Also do not be fooled by statistics. Statistics is the expected average or chance over the course of thousands or millions or data sets. There are times that you will roll 20 dice and get all 1's but there are also times where you might roll all 6's. So don't ignore mathhammer but also don't rage at the universe when an outlyer happens. Just cowboy up and have fun with your plastic toy tank.

Great data
Great advice
Great post
+1 to you!

In calculus mode and its 11:30 pm here, atm so forgive me, but you should two values for the number of rending hits, 1 for PE (which you will probably have) and 1 for no PE (for allies and such) which you do, which is great, people often forget the lack of PE, additionally, however, both of these should be constant w.r.t to toughness, so why does it change when you have higher toughnesses, re-rolling 1's when you need 2's to wound and re-rolling 1's on 4's to wound will still get you the same amount of sixes.

Can't wait to puppet master one of these guys

Absolutely excellent statistical analysis. Well done!

Awesome post!

This needs to be linked to anyone who says Pask is overpriced

 changerofways wrote:
Can't wait to puppet master one of these guys

Ooo, I need to try that. I'm getting a little sick of Pask personally, and I'm starting to love Puppet Master.

 Krellnus wrote:
In calculus mode and its 11:30 pm here, atm so forgive me, but you should two values for the number of rending hits, 1 for PE (which you will probably have) and 1 for no PE (for allies and such) which you do, which is great, people often forget the lack of PE, additionally, however, both of these should be constant w.r.t to toughness, so why does it change when you have higher toughnesses, re-rolling 1's when you need 2's to wound and re-rolling 1's on 4's to wound will still get you the same amount of sixes.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had thought when I did this that pask had pseudo monster hunter like he has pseudo tank hunter. However this is wrong. I have fixed the spreed sheet to reflect this.

He is still pretty good against MCs but he will definitely need an executioner or something to finish the job. I will edit my opening topic to reflect the new conclusions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is everyone able to download the sheet or get a copy in your google docs?

I see you love statistics, but there is a problem with PaskPunisher...a big one....range 24...thats why its not a great choice really.

 ansacs wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
In calculus mode and its 11:30 pm here, atm so forgive me, but you should two values for the number of rending hits, 1 for PE (which you will probably have) and 1 for no PE (for allies and such) which you do, which is great, people often forget the lack of PE, additionally, however, both of these should be constant w.r.t to toughness, so why does it change when you have higher toughnesses, re-rolling 1's when you need 2's to wound and re-rolling 1's on 4's to wound will still get you the same amount of sixes.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had thought when I did this that pask had pseudo monster hunter like he has pseudo tank hunter. However this is wrong. I have fixed the spreed sheet to reflect this.

He is still pretty good against MCs but he will definitely need an executioner or something to finish the job. I will edit my opening topic to reflect the new conclusions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is everyone able to download the sheet or get a copy in your google docs?

Yeah +1 for drawing the correct conclusion at 12 am.
It seems everyone is able to see the spreadsheet alright, although I do agree with the fact a 24" range is, problematic.

Krellnus wrote:Yeah +1 for drawing the correct conclusion at 12 am.
It seems everyone is able to see the spreadsheet alright, although I do agree with the fact a 24" range is, problematic.

Lothar wrote:I see you love statistics, but there is a problem with PaskPunisher...a big one....range 24...thats why its not a great choice really.

Yeah there is tons of threads about whether the pask punisher is worth his pts. The problem I saw was that in these discussions I was hearing ridiculous stuff like pask is worse than a vendetta at destroying AV10+ vehicles, pask punisher cannot hurt riptides and wraithknights, pask punisher cannot hurt AV14, etc. Most people just have no clue what rending pseudo tank hunter weapons can do.

There was also a lot of people who seemed to think that the pask punisher could gun down an entire ork boyz unit, power blobb, or terminator unit.

If there is going to be discussion on the tank then I would like for it to be intelligent discussion with realistic expectations.


As for whether the pask punisher is "worth it" I think it is a nicely balanced unit and so is worth it only if put into the right list and accompany it with the right tactics. I put this into it's own thread so people could link it, etc. without having to scroll through a bunch of stuff. Perhaps I should start a pask leman russ tactica thread as there are a number of tricks and tactics you can use with this character. Though I will definitely have to wait until post 7th as it may all change. I just hope rending and PE don't change, PE is very annoying to calculate properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have now also fixed the % explosion results so it accounts for only a single explosion result being possible. ie the first one allowed more than a single explosion result whereas now it is once it explodes it cannot do so again.

With your, math (I'm not getting the same results) you'll do anywhere from 1.717 to 5.075 hull points to AV14, reasonably.

Does that impede your opinion of the punisher at all?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
With your, math (I'm not getting the same results) you'll do anywhere from 1.717 to 5.075 hull points to AV14, reasonably.

Does that impede your opinion of the punisher at all?

I didn't really want this to be about my opinion on the pask punisher (I was more aiming for a data point people could use).

However, I like the pask punisher. I already prefer to play a more aggressive lists where I have a blobb or conscript that move forward around the tanks or I have a biker list and a conscript-priest unit screen the tanks rears. Therefore pask punisher is an excellent addition. I also would take it with a 2 MM and 1 LC which means with stripping 2 HP from a landraider you will either blow it up or glance it to death most of the time. This also brings your average numbers of wounds up to killing most MCs in a single turn of shooting.

I like the new codex just for this reason. Pask is good to great in 3 different tanks but not so good that it is obvious and necessarily so in every list. The CCS and Yarrick are both great as well and there are many other options worth the pts. There are very few things in this book that cannot be made to carry their weight.

Just to make you aware that you have titled the lascannon statistics 'multimelta'.

Problem is that the pask punisher is really easy to avoid for 1-2 turns while it is still taking return fire from longer ranged weapons.

Wave serpents can avoid it all day long quite easily while still shooting. Premeasure out 30.1 and then shoot everything else.

Once Pask is in the middle, avoiding him all day long limits your positioning a lot.

Poly Ranger wrote:Just to make you aware that you have titled the lascannon statistics 'multimelta'.

Thanks. Fixed now.

Leth wrote:Problem is that the pask punisher is really easy to avoid for 1-2 turns while it is still taking return fire from longer ranged weapons.

Wave serpents can avoid it all day long quite easily while still shooting. Premeasure out 30.1 and then shoot everything else.

Mavnas wrote:Once Pask is in the middle, avoiding him all day long limits your positioning a lot.

Yeah this is the sort of stuff that is difficult to talk about in a forum. You need to be aware that 24" is limited in range however you also need to be aware that 24" in the middle of the board is most of the board covered. If you plan to cover your weaknesses then the pask punisher will be of good use if you just throw him in then he will not be.

Think of it this way. CWE take wraithknights specifically for the ability to control the middle and therefore gain positional dominance. In terms of firepower a wraithknight is actually pretty poor. You take something like pask punisher to do the same...and to blast the wraithknight off the board with his squad mate plasmacutioner's help.

BTW getting side armour on a unit of 2+ leman russ' is not easy as they can be angled so the nearest is always front armour. You can also get some pretty decent cover saves by placing a central ADL or wall or using foot troops and camo.

I would be more worried about deep strikers to be honest. To use pask you have to expose your ass, which means that it is possible to get behind him. Unless you advance with the rest of your army to cover him he is gonna be vulnerable.

Yeah, I would say Pask benefits greatly from a blob to prevent melta guns from getting into melta range.

Leth wrote:I would be more worried about deep strikers to be honest. To use pask you have to expose your ass, which means that it is possible to get behind him. Unless you advance with the rest of your army to cover him he is gonna be vulnerable.

Mavnas wrote:Yeah, I would say Pask benefits greatly from a blob to prevent melta guns from getting into melta range.

Yeah, I would say that the more expensive and/or longer range russ' are a better fit with a foot horde whereas cheaper shorter range russ' fit better with mech guard. This is because the mech guard cannot protect their russ' effectively due to small board space occupation, rather they can avenge their russ' due to their inherent firepower concentration. Foot hordes are not necessarily as good at avenging their russ' due to a lack of firepower concentration however they are far better at preventing opponents from getting into the all important melta range, charging the tanks, or getting in behind the tanks.

There is also something to be said about GKs and Inquisition allies for countering DSers and coteaz is a great addition in his own right. Strike squads are also not bad when you have a russ screen to block LoS for them; the strike squad itself also protect the tanks from DSers, melee, and most MC's even attempting to get near.