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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 18:10:13
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Crablezworth wrote:
Just grab a friend, blindfold them and then force feed them a 26er of vodka and have them randomly demand that you do things thoughout the game. Seems to be about the same.
Except that sounds a LOT more fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 18:26:52
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Someone mentioned the ebb and flow of battle and I think it's pretty silly to try and simulate that with cards. Isn't that what the models are representing?
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 18:29:12
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
Israel
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darkcloak wrote:Someone mentioned the ebb and flow of battle and I think it's pretty silly to try and simulate that with cards. Isn't that what the models are representing?
I believe the cards represent Tzeentch f**king with your commanding officer's mind.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 18:29:29
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 18:31:06
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Shifting objectives isn't a bad idea in itself, it might certainly make matches more interesting and fun (but less competitive) and create a good dynamic.
In order to successfully achieve said dynamic, though, you'd be forced to actually invest some thinking in creating meaningful and interestng while also balanced targets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 18:53:02
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Mij'aan wrote: Crablezworth wrote:
Just grab a friend, blindfold them and then force feed them a 26er of vodka and have them randomly demand that you do things thoughout the game. Seems to be about the same.
Except that sounds a LOT more fun.
heh, for the guy, for the players its probably the same lol Automatically Appended Next Post: Galorian wrote:darkcloak wrote:Someone mentioned the ebb and flow of battle and I think it's pretty silly to try and simulate that with cards. Isn't that what the models are representing?
I believe the cards represent Tzeentch f**king with your commanding officer's mind.
Exactly, tzeenthchian absinthe will mess you up. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sigvatr wrote: In order to successfully achieve said dynamic, though, you'd be forced to actually invest some thinking in creating meaningful and interestng while also balanced targets.
Agreed
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 18:54:26
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 19:04:20
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Mij'aan wrote: Crablezworth wrote:
Just grab a friend, blindfold them and then force feed them a 26er of vodka and have them randomly demand that you do things thoughout the game. Seems to be about the same.
Except that sounds a LOT more fun.
"A-aand now.."
*hic*
"kill a.."
*falls over*
"..a... that blue thing. No, the left one. Other.."
*hic*
"...left. Get D1 billion points!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 20:10:48
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine
AZ
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Sigvatr wrote:Shifting objectives isn't a bad idea in itself, it might certainly make matches more interesting and fun (but less competitive) and create a good dynamic.
In order to successfully achieve said dynamic, though, you'd be forced to actually invest some thinking in creating meaningful and interestng while also balanced targets.
I agree 100%. Change for the sake of change IMO is hardly ever good. But it doesn't seem like GW is doing that in this situation. I like the idea of an ever changing battlefield. When you have static objectives, half the table gets ignored usually... now the entire table could be in play and thats exciting.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 20:11:20
"While it is true that there is a very small sub-species of geek who are adept at assembling small figures and painting them with breath taking detail; the rest of us are basically the paste eating retards who failed art class. Because of this, what we build never even faintly resembles the picture on the box when we're done." - Coyote Sharptongue
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:05:49
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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I like how the GW fanboys (sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade here) are now defending outright bad game design. Guess I'm failing as a Tau player by not taking a psyker, huh? Must forge narrative harder
No, I am not a fan of what I see right now.
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:10:19
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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liquidjoshi wrote:I like how the GW fanboys (sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade here) are now defending outright bad game design. Guess I'm failing as a Tau player by not taking a psyker, huh? Must forge narrative harder
No, I am not a fan of what I see right now.
Take an unbound list with a billion Zoanthropes. Say that your Tau are being mind controlled.
#ForgingTheNarrative.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:15:27
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Lord of the Fleet
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I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:16:55
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Blacksails wrote:
I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
When GW and the House of the White Knight uses the term to handwave all sorts of nonsense you can't help but ruthlessly mock the term.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:29:08
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Cosmic Joe
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Kain wrote: Blacksails wrote:
I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
When GW and the House of the White Knight uses the term to handwave all sorts of nonsense you can't help but ruthlessly mock the term.
You sir, get an exalt.
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:33:15
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Keep in mind with cards, if there are no duplicates, say you get the one that provides a nice VP or three for a psychic, and you have none, while you hold that card your opponent can't get it either.
Hidden missions are amazing in games that have them, its one of the failings of FoW: you know what the enemy is trying to do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:47:18
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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MWHistorian wrote: Kain wrote: Blacksails wrote:
I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
When GW and the House of the White Knight uses the term to handwave all sorts of nonsense you can't help but ruthlessly mock the term.
You sir, get an exalt.
I have an urge to get some Knights off eBay and paint them white using the avatars of the more vehement GW fanboys on Dakka as heraldry.
It'd probably be too much effort for a visual pun though.
I also lack the skill to replicate avatars like that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 21:50:55
Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:53:00
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Selym wrote: Mij'aan wrote: Crablezworth wrote:
Just grab a friend, blindfold them and then force feed them a 26er of vodka and have them randomly demand that you do things thoughout the game. Seems to be about the same.
Except that sounds a LOT more fun.
"A-aand now.."
*hic*
"kill a.."
*falls over*
"..a... that blue thing. No, the left one. Other.."
*hic*
"...left. Get D1 billion points!"
Wait... It's like you work for GW!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 21:53:13
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Kain wrote: Blacksails wrote:
I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
When GW and the House of the White Knight uses the term to handwave all sorts of nonsense you can't help but ruthlessly mock the term.
The most painful thing about the Zoanthrope thing is that it's exactly the kind of thing GW would promote now.
*sigh*
But yeah, also exalted. Clearly, I was wrong, and my codex's lack of psykers is entirely my fault. How could I ever doubt you Gee dubs? #Spiritualliege
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 22:09:42
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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The card system seems as bad as the BRB Warlord traits in 6th ed. Some armies fething love it, others could care less (orks?) about almost every single one.
If they dont add a rule saying along the lines of "If your army cannot use this card either because you did not bring the proper units, or do not have the option for the proper units, discard and redraw" because otherwise its going to be extremely one sided to the more well-rounded armies that have a little of everything whether its good or not compared to armies that have a lot of one thing, none of another.
Neither of my armies use psykers, and im worried im going to be shafted because of it. Orks do have one, but cmon weirdboyz? who uses them with the intent on winning? lol
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 22:23:26
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Kain wrote: MWHistorian wrote: Kain wrote: Blacksails wrote:
I hate serious use of hashtags, but I love when they're used sarcastically. Love this.
When GW and the House of the White Knight uses the term to handwave all sorts of nonsense you can't help but ruthlessly mock the term.
You sir, get an exalt.
I have an urge to get some Knights off eBay and paint them white using the avatars of the more vehement GW fanboys on Dakka as heraldry.
It'd probably be too much effort for a visual pun though.
I also lack the skill to replicate avatars like that.
Try using these. You can just print waterslide decals!
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Successful trades/sales: tekn0v1king |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 23:30:14
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet
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liquidjoshi wrote:I like how the GW fanboys (sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade here) are now defending outright bad game design. Guess I'm failing as a Tau player by not taking a psyker, huh? Must forge narrative harder
No, I am not a fan of what I see right now.
Indeed, as I said, people are focusing on the wrong things. Yes, random objectives throughout the game can actually be a very cool addition, but the reason we're complaining is because the objectives themselves are awful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/19 23:50:55
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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I've enjoyed doing random, hidden objectives in Dystopian Wars. Things like "kill 50% of the enemy's points and all of their medium-sized units"
The 50% thing means it's still a game, even if they only brought a single minimum-number unit of medium-class ships. And there's always a default "destroy 70% of the enemy's fleet" to fall back on if you look at your objective, their fleet and go "naaaaaah that ain't happening..."
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40k Armies I play:
Glory for Slaanesh!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 00:52:28
Subject: Re:The problem with the cards (7th)
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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I think its a bit too early to tell without having seen all the rules. But if they allow the player to discard one card before the first game turn it would probably alleviate the issue of having cards that don't apply to your army. From what it looks like, you don't have to discard an objective each turn. If they are working for you, keep them and score some points.
Your scoring unit sitting all alone on objective 4 you had a card for just got nuked off the table? Nothing close enough to make a second go at taking it? Discard it and go for another.
I'm okay with them being random. The path to victory isn't always so obvious.
Personally, anything that removes the ability to win just by blowing your opponent off the table is a good fix. Would help remove a lot of the dbag builds and play style.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 00:53:02
A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 01:13:30
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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In theory, you're right. But really, we all know that TFG Ted is gonna bring his Unbound 9 Riptide list, and simply table us. Or, we're gonna get shafted because we have to roll everything, roll for random cards, roll for decisions, roll for rolling, roll for narrative structure...
A little hyperbole, but you get the idea. I'm just waiting for GW to release a rule where "At the start of the game, roll a D6. On a 4+, you don't feel like playing 40K today."
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 02:18:00
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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Am I the only one that isnt afraid of 9 riptides?
I can deal with 5 pretty easily, they are not scary except for the 1-2 that get the buff commander.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 03:11:03
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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liquidjoshi wrote:In theory, you're right. But really, we all know that TFG Ted is gonna bring his Unbound 9 Riptide list, and simply table us. Or, we're gonna get shafted because we have to roll everything, roll for random cards, roll for decisions, roll for rolling, roll for narrative structure...
Well, there's no rule that can force players to not engage in dumbarsery. I still think the notion that tabling is an auto win is whats "ruined" 40k. If you score objectives on turns 2-5 or score objectives from cards from turn 1 (a guess?) and your opponent doesn't score anything but just shoots you off the table on whichever turn. Why does he magically get the win?
Why do we as players reward players who refuse to play to the scenario this way? I could see changing first blood to gaining 1 VP for tabling your opponent. But if you are up in turn four with 20 objective points and your opponent has zero, why does he win if he kills all the stuff you have on the table? Who's playing the game and who's "playing" the game there.
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A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 04:44:29
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Sister Vastly Superior
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I love that we are now at the point where a game based on the premise of eternal war and conflict, it is not considered to be in the spirit of the game to try and outright kill your opponent.
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Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I have a KickStarter problem. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 04:57:17
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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Madcat87 wrote:I love that we are now at the point where a game based on the premise of eternal war and conflict, it is not considered to be in the spirit of the game to try and outright kill your opponent.
Thats entirely not my point. Just that a lot of problems that come from list building would be fixed if doing so wasn't an automatic win. If we're just trying to outright kill everything your opponent has, no matter the scenario objectives, why do we even have scenario's? Just play till someone gets tabled.
If you remove the auto win from tabling, you open the door up to a lot of situations that fit the 40k "premise" completely. Assume the rearguard died against overwhelming odds, but they held out long enough to allow their main force to get away. Did they fulfill their mission?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 04:57:45
A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 05:04:36
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Sister Vastly Superior
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Removing the auto win from tabling though swings to far in the other direction. People will build lists solely around capturing objectives knowing full well they won't survive the game.
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Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I have a KickStarter problem. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 05:09:44
Subject: The problem with the cards (7th)
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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Madcat87 wrote:Removing the auto win from tabling though swings to far in the other direction. People will build lists solely around capturing objectives knowing full well they won't survive the game.
I'd say replace "first blood" with a vp reward for tabling. There is still an advantage to tabling, it just doesn't make it smart to go at it with ten plague marines and the rest of your army made up of helldrakes. Would also get rid of the "first blood" effect, where useful units are removed from lists solely because they're likely to give up first blood.
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A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 05:31:43
Subject: Re:The problem with the cards (7th)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Granted plenty of military actions in history have just been stalling tactics, sure, but I'm a bit wary in general of scooping up vp's that cannot be lost.
I don't mind a couple vp's here and there that my opponent can earn and I cannot take away from him but as we've seen with the cards, if you really are able to cycle through like 15-21 cards per person per game, my god, you've just made the mission irrelevant.
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Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/20 05:43:22
Subject: Re:The problem with the cards (7th)
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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I wonder if the different text on the bottom of the cards has anything to do with the scenario's. Perhaps you only run certain ones with each mission? Or they have different effects depending on which mission it is? A scenario built solely on what the cards give you points for would be a little off.
Without knowing everything, it's hard to say. But card objectives would still be known to your opponent (right?) and wouldn't be too different than having objectives that you score points for on turns 2-5.
Then again, if its better than scoring first blood and then denying giving anything else up by flying your FMC's off the table until they need to come on to contest, I'd be up for it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/20 05:45:01
A ton of armies and a terrain habit...
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