Could the IOM launch an offensive operation into the Eye of Terror?

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**Selym**

Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Vintersorg wrote:
People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.

Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.

Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.

You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.

And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.

To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.

The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.

... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.

.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)

If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.

While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.

Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.

(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)

And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."

**Ratius**

Not with the other current threats and operations going on (Nids, Cron worlds, Tau, Ork incursions).
Sure, hypothetically its possible but realistically the IOM is stretched so very thin at the moment especially considering GW's "end times" theme.

**EmpNortonII**

Selym wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Vintersorg wrote:
People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.

Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.

Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.

You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.

And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.

To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.

The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.

... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.

.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)

If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.

While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.

Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.

(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)

And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."

If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.

**Wyzilla**

EmpNortonII wrote:
Selym wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Vintersorg wrote:
People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.

Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.

Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.

You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.

And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.

To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.

The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.

... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.

.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)

If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.

While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.

Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.

(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)

And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."

If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.

Except that Chaos actively combats itself and there is no reason to ever think why Chaos would actually want to win. It's against its nature. Or do you really not see the bigger picture at all? What one faction is omniscient? What one faction is eternal and has been playing this game before time or space existed? What faction actually gains from the meta of 40K? What one faction has manipulated events so now the galaxy has fallen into permanent, unending war?

Chaos. Or more specifically, the Chaos Gods.

**nobody**

StarTrotter wrote:
ThePrimordial wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
To be technical, there are simply not enough Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers to reliably kill all the orks not to mention destroy every single spore that comes out. Add to that orks work on the same bs logic as everything else and would likely somehow find some nutrients to feed on.

Back to the question.... Could the IOM launch an offensive operation? Yes. Yes they can. In fact, they have before. That said, I am not mentioning an important caveat. It's an absolutely terrible idea! SM are less corruptable than IG and the crusade they did ended in a complete disaster that arguably gave more to chaos than lost.

Isnt it being a bad enough idea to make Chaos stronger, make it a non possibility?
What other race has that stupid of bs?
That could be a reason forge worlds can be casually cleansed of orks due to all the concrete and steel.
Like in Space Marine.

(I still don't know why these sorcerers so frequently summon Khorne in relic games)

Easy answer: they look the most like the modern view of demons.

Compare with living boogers, walking censor bars, and little capering imps.

Though the Fire Warrior game did include a Lord Of Change as the final boss.

**TheRedWingArmada**

EmpNortonII wrote:
If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.

False. In fact, one could argue that Chaos dominated a large part of the Universe before the Eye of Terror was born with Slaanesh, which also saw the Eldar get eaten right between supper and dance time.

On top of that, there is a reason why it is called "The Great Game." Yeah, the Imperium is fighting a war of survival, and the Chaos Gods are playing "a GAME."

Think of it this way; If you found out someone was playing a game with you and you were trying to survive, wouldn't you realize that at any point they could just snap your neck and be done with the game? They won't, because then it's not fun anymore, and this is pretty much what the Chaos Gods are doing to the Imperium.

There is also a reason they are called "Gods," and not...y'know....Shards...or any of the other misnomers for the other races presumed demi-figures or what have you. Example: Avatar of Khaine getting choked to death and his brass face punched in by an upset Fulgrim. Not very godly, if you ask me. >>

Of course then you have asshatery like Draigo snorting warp dust and stumbling around the Immaterium like a drunkard, ruining things like this, but w/e. Draigo is one man and despite these Odyssian epics he's supposed to have gone on (like carving Janus into Mortarions [was it heart or forehead?]). Is there anyone that believes he was capable of that, or that Nurgle wouldn't have tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Uuuuuuh....you know you're standing in my Garden, right?"

THOSE kinds of plot hooks are what lets the Imperium believe it can talk down to Chaos. That and GW outright loathing Chaos players. I think the global campaign for Cadia really screwed them up in their own heads. How else do you explain the Astra Militarum, Astra Tempestus, and the new Imperial Knights? XD Seriously Imperium, you're insecurity is showing. You took on three new armies + rules, books, w/e....and Chaos still has exactly TWO (that's not counting Forgeworld). One could argue Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion, but is there any Chaos player out there that thinks both of those supplements couldn't be better represented? And even then, Chaos is still looking at like 4 books to what...8? 9 Imperial factions?

Ya'll double us in everything. lol

**1hadhq**

Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is omniscient?

- the "game-designer faction"

Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is eternal

None.

Wyzilla wrote:

and has been playing this game before time or space existed?

Lets think hard about it.....

0 Time + 0 space =>>> 0 game.

**Wyzilla**

1hadhq wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is omniscient?

- the "game-designer faction"

Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is eternal

None.

Wyzilla wrote:

and has been playing this game before time or space existed?

Lets think hard about it.....

0 Time + 0 space =>>> 0 game.

Except the BRB itself disagrees with you. Chaos is multiuniversal, ignores causality/occupies a Schrodinger state of existence, is older than universe, and omnipotent within the warp. Plus one of the Chaos Gods is flat out Omniscient, Tzeentch.

**1hadhq**

Wyzilla wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is omniscient?

- the "game-designer faction"

Wyzilla wrote:

What one faction is eternal

None.

Wyzilla wrote:

and has been playing this game before time or space existed?

Lets think hard about it.....

0 Time + 0 space =>>> 0 game.

Except the BRB itself disagrees with you. Chaos is multiuniversal, ignores causality/occupies a Schrodinger state of existence, is older than universe, and omnipotent within the warp. Plus one of the Chaos Gods is flat out Omniscient, Tzeentch.

A BRB ?

There is a small red and white one right now...... Or precisely :

page

**Wyzilla**

The warp is the multi/omniverse(or is connected to them)
"The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds."
Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius
“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
Thoughts can destroy or create thousands of universes in the warp
"Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?"
Pg.712 A Thousand Sons

Chaos is older than time
All around him, he could hear the sounds of the future, of warfare and death. The thought that he shared the guilt of the destruction of the Emperor’s dream was the greatest shame and sorrow he had ever known.
An end to it all would be a blessed relief.
‘Oblivion,’ he whispered as he closed his eyes. ‘Do it. End me.’
The barriers in Fulgrim’s mind dropped and he felt the elation of a creature older than time as it poured into the void in his soul. No sooner had its touch claimed his flesh for its own than he knew he had made the worst mistake of his life.
Fulgrim screamed as he fought to keep it out, but it was already too late.
His consciousness was crushed into the dark, unused corners of his mind, forever to be a mute witness to the havoc wrought by his body’s new master.
One moment Fulgrim was a primarch, one of the Emperor’s Children, the next he was a thing of Chaos."
Pg.757 Fulgrim
"A terrible, ageless scream of frustration filled the chamber, echoing throughout all the realms of existence simultaneously as a creature older than time was thwarted in its ambitions."
Pg.619 Descent of Angels
"All I can tell you is that the warp is beyond the comprehension of you or I, and things exist in its fathomless depths that are older than time as we know it.’"
Pg.359 Battle For the Abyss

Schrodinger's Slaanesh/Chaos
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the material universe. In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slannesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed at all
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 16
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cuase then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always exsted in the Warp, and yet had never existed.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition, pg.7
The sheer mind-boggling impossibiliry of the Warp defies
explanation, and those who attempt to delve further into
understanding its ways inevitably slip into madness. Of the
little that is known is that Warp space does not conform to the
laws of physics as we know them.
-Warhamer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg. 144
It is a hurning ocean of chaos, raw emotion and madness given form, where the laws of physics, time and nature are meaningless concepts and nothing is as it seems.
-Warhammer 40k 4th Edition Rulebook pg. 122
In warp space there is no time, no distances, only a constantly flowing stream of immaterium.
-Battle Fleet Gothic Rulebook, pg. 85
It is a roiling, howling maelstorm of force and energy, utterly unpredictable and not subject to the rational laws and linear flow of time in the way that physical reality is.
-Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal, pg. 16
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 6
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 4
Timeless and ever-shifting, this psychic visionscape is known as the Realm of Chaos
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space.

--Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Empy holding reality against Chaos consuming the universe throughout space time.
"His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 5th Edition rulebook, pg.101
Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of
machinery, the Emperor's mind stretches out through space
and time - a light in a vast gulf of blackness.
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg.134
"Today, as for every day since that battle, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. The stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the machine known as the Golden Throne preserve his broken and decayed body; his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic Powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.

If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consurning Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg.137
"Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 144
"They are never sated. The abominations from the Warp will not rest untii they have consumed not just Mankind, but the universe as well. All will be ruin; all will be Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 234

In the sixth edition, coupled with the Daemons Codex and multiple black library novels. There's also probably sentences littered about the 7th Edition, but I haven't gotten to picking through the fluff parts yet.

**Bobthehero**

Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...

**Grimskul**

Bobthehero wrote:
Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...

Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.

**StarTrotter**

Grimskul wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...

Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.

I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?

**Wyzilla**

StarTrotter wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...

Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.

I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?

Don't forget the Eldar gods. There's only two that truly remain, but they still count even if one is held captive by Nurgle. They really do need to inflate the amount of Chaos Gods though, or at least bring in more unique entities like Be'lakor and Malice.

**StarTrotter**

Wyzilla wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...

Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.

I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?

Don't forget the Eldar gods. There's only two that truly remain, but they still count even if one is held captive by Nurgle. They really do need to inflate the amount of Chaos Gods though, or at least bring in more unique entities like Be'lakor and Malice.

Apologies, derped up and somehow thought that one got into the webway which is kinda warp but not exactly. But yeah, in general I'd like to see the warp more fleshed out both chaos and not.

**Ferros**

The people referring to Chaos being some indomitable, eternal evil must not be too well versed in the fluff.

This ignores that Chaos as we know it was essentially non-existent before The Eldar - and even then - wasn't particularly frightening at all until the Enslavers or the Fall. I don't recall too many Khornate demons in the War in Heaven.

This also ignores that Necrons are capable of closing off warp rifts, including the Eye - as evidenced by Cadia. A select collection of pylons are containing that section of the eye for tens of thousands of years without maintenance.

**Wyzilla**

Ferros wrote:
The people referring to Chaos being some indomitable, eternal evil must not be too well versed in the fluff.

This ignores that Chaos as we know it was essentially non-existent before The Eldar - and even then - wasn't particularly frightening at all until the Enslavers or the Fall. I don't recall too many Khornate demons in the War in Heaven.

This also ignores that Necrons are capable of closing off warp rifts, including the Eye - as evidenced by Cadia. A select collection of pylons are containing that section of the eye for tens of thousands of years without maintenance.

-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-

**Ferros**

-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-

You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.

Chaos can be in a "Schrodinger state" all it wants - but its impact on the physical dimension has an obvious chronological history. While it may be this and that and everything inbetween in its OWN dimension - and I'm aware of the fluff saying it has existed/not-existed since the dawn of time - there is an extremely obvious pattern and history of Chaos in "our universe" and screaming your two favorite words does not disprove either of the points I made.

**Ashiraya**

Ferros wrote:

You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.

Edit: Oh and the same goes for Bobthehero btw.

**Ferros**

I made a single post in this topic, about a guy repeating something over and over ad nauseum in his myriad of posts.. and you respond with a kettle-pot scenario?

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

**Ashiraya**

I think I do, you complain on arrogance while simultaneously posting in a condescending tone.

There is no fault in repeating points that the opposition seemingly fails to notice.

**Bobthehero**

I am not polishing any poles, at least not now

**Ashiraya**

That's because this is not a DKoK thread.

**Bobthehero**

>.>
<.<

No idea what you're talking about, nope.

**Ashiraya**

I am fairly certain you would not like my headcanon.

**1hadhq**

Wyzilla wrote:

In the sixth edition, coupled with the Daemons Codex and multiple black library novels. There's also probably sentences littered about the 7th Edition, but I haven't gotten to picking through the fluff parts yet.

Seventh should be easy, just 128 pages and the usual love for C&P.....

What i did miss here is:
One of the Demon codices had a possible End to Chaos. Maybe add it to your collection ?

I am still pleased

no BRB disagrees with me. Conscious rulebooks would be weird.....

So basically 1 God-Emperor keeps the oh so unlimited and oh so powerful chaos-creatures at bay.

The same beings who cannot beat Gork&Mork, who need those Mortals to enter the Material Realm; Sounds like they are not so omni - this and omni - that....

The issue I would point out is:

- chaos is stuck with a champion frozen in a never ending "final" campaign, called 13th Black Crusade. Mr Ezekyle Immobile...
- chaos doesn't seem to act upon threats to its way to enter the materium, where are the offensives against Tyranids, Necrons, etc..?

Didn't the series of quotes you posted insist on "chaos goal is ruining everything" ? The whole Materium, the future of all ?
Success looks different I say..

**jakejackjake**

ThePrimordial wrote:
Couldnt you just kill orks on concrete on steel so the spores couldn't take root?
Or just kill them with Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers?
There's a reason they aren't a threat on the level of Chaos or Tyranids
How is this thread ongoing.
The answer is hell no the Imperium can't. Cause Daemons on thier worlds could just say "those battleships in my atmosphere? They're blown up now. Now back to the rape".

The only reason is they can't unify otherwise they'd already own the galaxy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Everyone not agreeing with Wyzilla are just ignoring the facts and then making statements based off small pieces of inconclusive fluff that mean nothing but help them believe what they want.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferros wrote:
-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-

You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.

Chaos can be in a "Schrodinger state" all it wants - but its impact on the physical dimension has an obvious chronological history. While it may be this and that and everything inbetween in its OWN dimension - and I'm aware of the fluff saying it has existed/not-existed since the dawn of time - there is an extremely obvious pattern and history of Chaos in "our universe" and screaming your two favorite words does not disprove either of the points I made.

Because you've made no points. Yes the people in the materium see things in a chronological order that were effected by chaos but that doesn't prove anything really. They also see things that are chronologically impossible.

**Veteran of The Long War**

Even though I'm a chaos player some of this is being overblown. While the Gods do consider their acts in the Materium to be a game the stuff about a million universes dying and being reborn in the warp has no meaning because a) the warp is not a physical place as we know it and we can't really describe it. It might be made up all the matter in the Universe ^10 or be smaller than the width of the tip of a pen. Or both at the same time. B) it is probably hyperbole in the books

However, I do agree that if the Chaos Gods actually cared they would have swept the Imperium away years ago cus the only being who could possibly threaten them (the Emperor) has been neutralized. Also, the Abaddon bashing needs to stop the whole meme came into existence by a bunch of butthurt Imperial players who believed their own lies about the outcome of the 13th Crusade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But to get back to the original topic, no the Imperium currently lacks the power to invade the Eye. Even if it was Just the Imperium vs Chaos the best they could do is blockade the whole thing in real space. And the only invasion into the eye was lead by 30 chapters, almost 1/3rd of a legion and it failed massively. They purged 4 planets in the Eye that can just rebuild themselves. Throwing men into the Eye is the same as throwing water down the drain; it ain't gonna get anywhere and it ain't gonna come back.

**TheRedWingArmada**

Time for the bullet points:

-As I've said elsewhere, Abaddon is neither "stuck" nor a "failure" in his other Crusades. As it is suggested in our codex's, Abaddon has achieved something that has crippled and poisoned the Imperium EVERY SINGLE TIME HE'S STEPPED OUT OF THE WARP. Every time. Without exception. He has accomplished the goal he was tasked with.

-The Chaos Gods DO unite, typically when something in the Materium draws their attentions, like when the Primarchs were born or when the Emperor came into existence. Edit: Here is an even better example of the Chaos Gods uniting in the Warp, no less: Ok, so Tzeentch was top dog at one point. Well, the other 2(3) didn't like that, so they threw his ass off the Eternal Mountain top and shattered him into 1000 x 1000 pieces. So now Khorne is in charge. XD The Chaos Gods are fickle.

-The Great Game is played in the Warp, not Real Space. In Real Space, the Chaos Gods have a very specific purpose: To breach realspace forever after, thus sustaining their Empire indefinitely.

-Pt 2 to the last point, this is also why they're having so much fun stringing the Imperium along. They've got all the time in the world to waste, and even with 'Crons trying to damn up the warp, well as it turns out the Warp has a way of seeping out anyways.

-...and about the Tyranids? Don't kid yourself. Despite "Shadows on the Warp," Chaos does have a special place in the Warp for Tyranids. As Rograx Bloodhand (sp?) will tell you, it's in a heap of skulls at Khornes throne. Which brings me to...

-Tyranids and the Warp. So, in the game, we have this I don't know what that says Tyranids find the Warp delicious. And yet, when confronted with a warp storm, entire tendrils of Tyranid invasion fleets will attempt to by pass them, and at times, get swallowed up in them as well, per fluff, codex's and lore. They may have some bizarre resistance to psykers, but not the Warp itself. They can still get ripped apart by a Bloodletter as easy as an Imperial soldier can.

-13th Black Crusade, Battle for Cadia - RETCONNED. Oh, and by the by? That whole thing about the Imperium only being able to dam up the Warp for a bit? Well isn't that what's already going on? And they're losing that dam?

-Pylons: Wtfe....As Abaddon is showing us, Chaos can still beat up pylons. And without maintenance? That's because Cadia has been in the hands of the Imperium. They have NO CLUE what the hell those pylons are about or how to protect or even keep them. As I understand it, they know they're important and that's about it, hence why the Imperial Fleets haven't tried to bomb Abaddon off the face of Cadia. THEY CAN'T.

-But let's talk about the Necrons for a minute, without getting into laughably ridiculous fan fluff like the Celestial Orrey and the Void Dragon. Most of them are asleep. Even more are in states of disrepair. Even more of them are waking up with nasty things like Tyranids on their planets. In the incident on Colchis, they decided to take a walk down to the planets core and got crush by a Warp Leech with a Vortex for a head that decided to go Skull Shopping.

-Ultimately though? As I said, the goal is to breach realspace and the Imperium is currently the dominating faction of that space. When the Imperium falls, imagine Chaos x OVER 9000?!!!? And then lets see where that leaves the Nids and the Crons.

-...And don't get me started with the Eldar. They're as good as dead, with or without Isha or their other God of the Burning Face or w/e they're called. If Space Marine primarchs can punch the faces of their Avatars in, I don't see much threat from a single god trapped in the Webway v. his Big Brothers (and Big Sister) in the Warp, one of which is very, very hungry for Eldar stuff. I'll bet that Eldar God is even more appetizing.

-Finally, the Redemptive Crusade, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm sure: They didn't just ineffectively ruin a couple planets and get a third of the chapters killed. They also got another third of the chapters converted to Chaos, and what was left had to go piss on Basillius' parade, which was already over some thousand years before.

Getting back on topic with the EoT invasion? BAD, TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, AWFUL IDEA. Aside from the fact causality is meaningless, there is always the problem of disappearing from above your own foot prints.

Just ask anyone who has ever seen the Blade of Infinity, which also ruins the idea that the lack of causality in the Warp plays no role in ruining the causality of real space. Like that one time the Blade of Infinity showed up and then "Oops! Just kidding! It's really the Terminus Est."

THIS. IS. THE. WARP.

If you can beat this with the current Imperium standard, which is imploding currently, by all means, I'll indulge. But these fringe factions aren't going to reach Terra before Chaos. No way in hell. And if they can't reach Terra before Chaos does, then the other factions have no way in hell of stopping what pours out next. You thought the Daemons were bad in Warp space? Try Daemons in a universe they can permanently impact without the added benefit of shoving them off the mortal coil. lol

Yeah. That's WAAAAY worse than anything in existence right now, especially with the way the Chaos pantheon is set up (talking about larger, Chaotic bodies like Malal and the "Forces of Nature" Chaos Daemons we see Imperial fleets just so happy to dive into the Warp after.)

Titans? Get real. Void dragon? Yeah whatever. Nurgle in realspace? He can hold the universe in between his fingers at that point. @__@

**Ashiraya**

Once Chaos can manifest in realspace fully, the galaxy is boned.

The question is just if they can do that before the Tyranids eat everything or the Necrons realise that using the Celestial Orrery might be a good idea.