Tournament ruling on Cryptek and joining squads

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**Mythra**

They ruled that each Cryptek that joined a squad was worth a kill point and the squad was worth a kill point. Why would you ever use crypteks then? And they ruled once the squad was killed then the Crytek leading the squad was now not scoring. Again why would you use crypteks then?

**rigeld2**

Yeah... That's two poor rulings.

**Mythra**

What argument would use to counter this?

**Ghaz**

The closest analog to Crypteks are Space Wolf Pack Leaders. From the Codex Space Wolves FAQ:

Q: If a Wolf Guard Pack Leader has joined a unit of Troops, does that unit cease to be a scoring unit? And does the Wolf Guard cease to count as an Elite model? (p86)

A: When a Wolf Guard model joins another unit because of his Pack Leader special rule he becomes part of that unit to all intents and purposes. For instance, a Pack Leader that leads a Troops unit will still be able to claim an objective even if his Troops unit is wiped out – he is considered to be part of that Troops unit. He would also still be able to deploy in a mission that only allows Troops units to be deployed at first. Conversely, a Pack Leader that leads a Long Fang unit is counted as part of a Heavy Support choice, even if under the effects of Logan Grimnar’s The Great Wolf special rule. This also applies to the calculation of victory points – the Wolf Guard who have been split off from their original Wolf Guard unit count as part of their assigned unit in all respects. For example, I have a Wolf Guard squad of 10 and I like to split 3 of them off to be Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, one to lead my Blood Claws, one to lead my Grey Hunters, one to lead my Long Fangs. My opponent would score one victory point if he kills off all 7 of the Wolf Guard left in the squad after splitting, who are still forming a ‘normal’ unit. He doesn't need to kill all 10 of the Wolf Guard to get that victory point, as the other three Wolf Guard are now part of other squads. Conversely, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are attached to these new squads, he would not score a victory point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the models in those packs, including the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders

**DeathReaper**

Ghaz wrote:
The closest analog to Crypteks are Space Wolf Pack Leaders. From the Codex Space Wolves FAQ:

Q: If a Wolf Guard Pack Leader has joined a unit of Troops, does that unit cease to be a scoring unit? And does the Wolf Guard cease to count as an Elite model? (p86)

A: When a Wolf Guard model joins another unit because of his Pack Leader special rule he becomes part of that unit to all intents and purposes. For instance, a Pack Leader that leads a Troops unit will still be able to claim an objective even if his Troops unit is wiped out – he is considered to be part of that Troops unit. He would also still be able to deploy in a mission that only allows Troops units to be deployed at first. Conversely, a Pack Leader that leads a Long Fang unit is counted as part of a Heavy Support choice, even if under the effects of Logan Grimnar’s The Great Wolf special rule. This also applies to the calculation of victory points – the Wolf Guard who have been split off from their original Wolf Guard unit count as part of their assigned unit in all respects. For example, I have a Wolf Guard squad of 10 and I like to split 3 of them off to be Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, one to lead my Blood Claws, one to lead my Grey Hunters, one to lead my Long Fangs. My opponent would score one victory point if he kills off all 7 of the Wolf Guard left in the squad after splitting, who are still forming a ‘normal’ unit. He doesn't need to kill all 10 of the Wolf Guard to get that victory point, as the other three Wolf Guard are now part of other squads. Conversely, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are attached to these new squads, he would not score a victory point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the models in those packs, including the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders

100% this, talk about the similarities between Crypteks and Space Wolf Wolf Guard models that split off.

Or, refrain from using Crypteks, unless they are not playing kill point scenarios in most of the games.

**yakface**

But even on top of that would just be the RAW, assuming you're talking about the 'Purge the Alien' mission type (as there are no such things as 'kill points' anymore).

You get VPs for destroying a unit, so once the Cryptek is attached to the unit he is part of that unit. The only reason ICs are worth a separate VP is because the rules say so.

An argument could be made that if you completely allocate all your Crypteks out to different units, then the 'court' is now destroyed and worth 1 VP, but there is no logical way to say that each Cryptek is worth 1 VP under any circumstance.

**Mythra**

Well I kinda lied. It was Ard Boys and it was a special mission each HQ was worth 3 and any other unit was worth 1. Dedicated transports were worth 0. So the attached Crypteks were worth 3 each they said like any other HQ. I already my list there for the tournament and couldn't swap out the Crypteks so I had not to split them off to each warrior squad and keep them as a RC so it would only be 1 3 point award.

**JinxDragon**

Victory Points are still awarded for Units, so it seems strange to award 3 point per individual Model for the Royal court simply because they are leading other Units.
Oh well, Tournament Organizers have permission to make up whatever Rules they wish.

**Neorealist**

Yep. There is no real RAW reason for deciding that Cryptek's are worth 3 victory points a piece, but that is what your tournament organiser decided on from the looks of it. Should have asked if Crypteks counted as HQ units for the purpose of that rule before finalizing your army list. (which as a unit they'd do by default due to their FOC location.)

**Spetulhu**

Perhaps the organizer was under the mistaken assumption that Crypteks are Independent Characters instead of just characters?

**Jimsolo**

I'd like to know where this tournament occurred and who the organizer was, if you don't mind.

**Kommissar Kel**

yakface wrote:

But even on top of that would just be the RAW, assuming you're talking about the 'Purge the Alien' mission type (as there are no such things as 'kill points' anymore).

You get VPs for destroying a unit, so once the Cryptek is attached to the unit he is part of that unit. The only reason ICs are worth a separate VP is because the rules say so.

An argument could be made that if you completely allocate all your Crypteks out to different units, then the 'court' is now destroyed and worth 1 VP, but there is no logical way to say that each Cryptek is worth 1 VP under any circumstance.

ICs are worth a kill point because the moment they, or the unit they are attached to is destroyed, they are no longer attached to the unit, and they are only a part of the unit while they are part of the unit.

**milkboy**

Spetulhu wrote:
Perhaps the organizer was under the mistaken assumption that Crypteks are Independent Characters instead of just characters?

I made this mistake too until I was enlightened from the forum. They are the only characters in the Necron codex who are not Independant. Maybe that might have changed things.

**wargamer1985**

of course, there is one small problem with saying raw does this or that.

HOUSE RULES: every tournament can lay down whatever the hell house rules it wants. and theres nothing you can do but refuse to play

for example: at my local tournaments, all spawned termaguants from the tevrigon are worth their points n both Purge the Alien and what we call battle points, i.e every unit you wipe out awards your opponent that units cost in battle points. Now 5/6 Nid players argued that this was an unfair ruling as it means on a good game of spoawning you could be looking at 66 x 4 points. for each one of the 3 tevrigons we all use to make up for the absolute rubbishness of our only viable troops.

what can we do about it; nothing but refuse to play.

so the bottom line is if you didnt check in with your to on that then its your own fault. house rules are just that

**sonicaucie**

I honestly think these kind of bad situations happen as a result of some of the stigma against Necrons and the fact that the rules for the royal court and some other things are not clear.

I have witnessed, personally, someone using their RC members like ICs and when he's about to get shot will simply "split" his squad into different units to maximise the overkill required.

But, in all honesty, if I was in a situation where my RC members were adding +1 VP; I'd probably just run a complete RC disco inferno or flyer spam list since that's what they're forcing me to do.

2xwarrior squads

deathmarks + despairtek + zahndrekh

Royal court disco inferno + obyron + Overlord

Even with their ruling, I only have 8 kill points up for grab.

**Mythra**

It was Ard Boys in Metairie LA at Go 4 Games.

**Galorian**

Mythra wrote:
They ruled that each Cryptek that joined a squad was worth a kill point and the squad was worth a kill point. Why would you ever use crypteks then? And they ruled once the squad was killed then the Crytek leading the squad was now not scoring. Again why would you use crypteks then?

Run a shooty royal disco inferno sitting inside of a Ghost Ark with a bakery flying overhead and a Transcended C'tan wiping the board clean with SD hellstorm templates and 6d6 48" S8 AP3 shots while laughing maniacally at the TO's expression.

Problem solved.

Maybe next time he'll think a bit before forcing you to play dirty...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mythra wrote:
What argument would use to counter this?

That it's f**king stupid?

Seriously, it wouldn't be an issue if he ruled that killing off the entire royal court would be worth 3 points even if they've completely split up, but making each one be worth as much points as a friggin HQ choice makes about as much sense as giving you 3 points for killing a sergeant from a guardsmen blob...

**Sigvatr**

Ask them what happens when everyone in the squad but the Cryptek dies. They will say "It's a unit on his own." Show them the codex where it says "character". Not "individual character". Tell them it's illegal to field him on his own.

Not going to happen though as you signed up for it already. Complain after the game and if they refuse to show reason, don't play them again and badmouth them when talking about tournaments to make people stay away from TOs like this.

/e: Wait, what, ARD BOYS? Holy crap. They used to have good judges in the past. What happened?

**Spellbound**

I'm more surprised that they're running 'Ard boyz. Are they doing this again, officially? Or is someone somewhere just running 2500 quit yer cryin' style tournaments?