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Scenario:
Drop Pod bangs down, and IC pops out. He moves into coherency of a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?

For All Rule Purposes... I so hate those words.
They should never be penned in a Rule Book as one should always leave open the possibility of Exceptions, particularly in 40K which seems to have an exception for nearly every little Rule.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Scenario:
Drop Pod bangs down, and IC pops out. He moves into coherency of a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?

No the unit can not assault as a part of it has actually arrived from reserve. Even though the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes, that includes launching an assault which is disallowed for part of the unit and all models in the unit move at the slowest speed.

"the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model." (21)

An Independent Character cannot choose to leave a unit it is part of on the turn it arrived from Reserve (pg124).

Dra'al Nacht,
Spoil Sport, I wanted to see what arguments people would try and put forth to get around the 'for all Rule Purposes.'

For all rules purposes the IC is part of the unit.
Therefore the unit cannot assault, as part of it has arrived from reserves that turn.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Scenario:
Drop Pod bangs down, and IC pops out. He moves into coherency of a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?

How did the IC get in the pod without joining the unit inside? Because, of course, he can't leave that unit the turn it arrives from Reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Scenario:
Drop Pod bangs down, and IC pops out. He moves into coherency of a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?

How did the IC get in the pod without joining the unit inside? Because, of course, he can't leave that unit the turn it arrives from Reserves.

Someone posted that answer yesterday. Thank you for contributing, though! Better late than never, I suppose.
But if we ignore the Drop Pod impossibility, and instead look at a different scenario:

------------------

Scenario:
IC walks onto the field from reserve, into coherency with a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?

I don't think the "slowest speed" argument works, because that's clearly talking about unit types and charge distance, since "no charging for you" is not a "speed" in the context of that passage.
And I'm not sure I buy that parts of units can arrive from reserve, while other parts don't. From a rules-perspective, that doesn't seem to be addressed in any way. Either a unit has or has not arrived from reserve, it's not a cat in a box.

The Character is part of the unit for all rules purposes.
So one member of the unit has arrived from reserve.

If one model can't assault, can the unit?

How far can the slowest model charge?
0 inches.

There's your speed.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I don't think the "slowest speed" argument works, because that's clearly talking about unit types and charge distance, since "no charging for you" is not a "speed" in the context of that passage.
And I'm not sure I buy that parts of units can arrive from reserve, while other parts don't. From a rules-perspective, that doesn't seem to be addressed in any way. Either a unit has or has not arrived from reserve, it's not a cat in a box.

Slowest does not actually enter into it because the IC is forbidden from launching an assault. Part of the unit has arrived from reserve. Joining a unit does not magically make you not arrive from reserve.

It is just like the scenario where an IC has Defensive grenades.The unit has Defensive grenades because one model in the unit has them, every model in the unid does not have them, but they are present within the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Slowest does not actually enter into it

 DeathReaper wrote:

No the unit can not assault as a part of it has actually arrived from reserve. Even though the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes, that includes launching an assault which is disallowed for part of the unit and all models in the unit move at the slowest speed.

"the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model." (21)

You were literally the first person in the thread to voice the opinion you now state "doesn't enter into it."

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
And I'm not sure I buy that parts of units can arrive from reserve, while other parts don't. From a rules-perspective, that doesn't seem to be addressed in any way. Either a unit has or has not arrived from reserve, it's not a cat in a box.

It can be, though. If one Tactical Marine fires a bolter and all the rest fire pistols, the unit still can't charge, because [one of] the unit fired a Rapid Fire weapon. Likewise, if the same Tac Squad is joined by a Librarian running up out of Reserves, the will not be able to launch an assault, because [one of] the unit arrived from Reserve.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Slowest does not actually enter into it

 DeathReaper wrote:

No the unit can not assault as a part of it has actually arrived from reserve. Even though the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes, that includes launching an assault which is disallowed for part of the unit and all models in the unit move at the slowest speed.

"the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model." (21)

You were literally the first person in the thread to voice the opinion you now state "doesn't enter into it."

Part of the unit can not charge, so the unit can not charge, or move at all, that is why it really doesn't enter into it.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

But if we ignore the Drop Pod impossibility, and instead look at a different scenario:

------------------

Scenario:
IC walks onto the field from reserve, into coherency with a friendly unit that was already on the table. He is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes, including whether that unit has arrived from reserve this turn.

Question:
Can that unit launch an assault?.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge

The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

 Jimsolo wrote:

You were literally the first person in the thread to voice the opinion you now state "doesn't enter into it."

For fun, one time, I actually effectively argued against some one...not saying who....by making posts that contained nothing but prior statements that they had made. Dakka is great, because it keeps a record of everything that everyone posts. Sometimes you don't even have to leave the same thread to do this.

Now, I know that this specifically mentions a drop pod, but could be attributed to other times that an IC enters play from reserve by themselves. What if a Librarian enters from reserve and joins up with your Tac squad that was holding an objective. Which takes precedence? There is no real wording in the rules that declare whether the unit is considered to have been arriving from reserve or not. Arriving from reserve is not a USR and there is no wording that claims that the reserve rule carries over to a unit containing an IC. Chalk it up as yet another time that no matter which way you play it, it's a house rule.

I am just enjoying the Popcorn, it shall be an interesting one.

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

This of course is incorrect.

The unit that is trying to charge has a model within it that has arrived from reserve that turn and as such can not charge.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

This of course is incorrect.

The unit that is trying to charge has a model within it that has arrived from reserve that turn and as such can not charge.

Models are not forbidden from charging.
I quoted the rule (which you conveniently edited out) that shows the restriction is on units, not models.
Please quote a rule to support your position. I've quoted a rule to support mine.

Of course - you can't. Because one doesn't exist. Please don't make assertions you cannot actually prove, especially when your assertion is that a rules proven point is incorrect.

Have a nice day.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

This of course is incorrect.

The unit that is trying to charge has a model within it that has arrived from reserve that turn and as such can not charge.

Models are not forbidden from charging.
I quoted the rule (which you conveniently edited out) that shows the restriction is on units, not models.
Please quote a rule to support your position. I've quoted a rule to support mine.

Of course - you can't. Because one doesn't exist. Please don't make assertions you cannot actually prove, especially when your assertion is that a rules proven point is incorrect.

Have a nice day.

If a part of the unit is disallowed from assaulting, then the unit is disallowed from assaulting.

"...we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together"(3)

Units are made up of models.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve." (125)

Units can not charge in the turn it arrives from reserve.

There are your rules quotes

Have a nice day.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

This of course is incorrect.

The unit that is trying to charge has a model within it that has arrived from reserve that turn and as such can not charge.

Models are not forbidden from charging.
I quoted the rule (which you conveniently edited out) that shows the restriction is on units, not models.
Please quote a rule to support your position. I've quoted a rule to support mine.

Of course - you can't. Because one doesn't exist. Please don't make assertions you cannot actually prove, especially when your assertion is that a rules proven point is incorrect.

Have a nice day.

If a part of the unit is disallowed from assaulting, then the unit is disallowed from assaulting.

"...we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together"(3)

Units are made up of models.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve." (125)

Units can not charge in the turn it arrives from reserve.

There are your rules quotes

Have a nice day.

Units are made up of models=True
Can models also be units= Yes
Can a model in a larger cohesive grouping be a unit= No
Do special rules or restrictions from an independent character be conveyed to a larger unit if so joined= yes, if specified
Is the "No assault" restriction specifically conveyed to the joined unit in the rules=NO

Remember, the rules for one model in a unit don't apply to a unit unless the rules are specifically said to do so.

Like I said before, no matter how yo play it it's a house rule. The rules don't explicitly cover this scenario.

I'm ready and willing to use someone else's rules argument to bolster my position.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The unit that arrived from Reserves isn't attempting to charge.
There's nothing forbidding it.

This of course is incorrect.

The unit that is trying to charge has a model within it that has arrived from reserve that turn and as such can not charge.

Models are not forbidden from charging.
I quoted the rule (which you conveniently edited out) that shows the restriction is on units, not models.
Please quote a rule to support your position. I've quoted a rule to support mine.

Of course - you can't. Because one doesn't exist. Please don't make assertions you cannot actually prove, especially when your assertion is that a rules proven point is incorrect.

Have a nice day.

If a part of the unit is disallowed from assaulting, then the unit is disallowed from assaulting.

"...we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together"(3)

Units are made up of models.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve." (125)

Units can not charge in the turn it arrives from reserve.

There are your rules quotes

Have a nice day.

The unit cannot charge the turn it arrives from reserves.
The unit that arrived from reserves doesn't exist.
Your assertions continue to be without merit.

Part of the unit did arrive from reserve, this is demonstrably true.

Your assertations about my assertions are without merit, as I can prove that a part of the unit that wants to declare a charge definitely did arrive from reserve that turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Your assertations about my assertions are without merit, as I can prove that a part of the unit that wants to declare a charge definitely did arrive from reserve that turn.

Is the restriction on the unit, or models in the unit?

Since we've both quoted the rule, we know the restriction is on the unit.
If you are attempting to treat the IC as a member of a nonexistent unit, you are not treating him as a member of the larger unit for all rules purposes. Why are you breaking a rule?

The rule doesn't apply to "part" of a unit. You've invented that completely.

The IC is a member of a unit, but a model in that unit has arrived from reserve that turn as such that unit that the model is a part of can not assault.

It is just like defensive grenades. If a model in the unit has defensive grenades does the unit have defensive grenades? (A: Yes)

Same applies to units that have arrived from reserve.

If a model in the unit has arrived from reserve has that unit have arrived from reserve? (A: Yes)

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are attempting to treat the IC as a member of a nonexistent unit, you are not treating him as a member of the larger unit for all rules purposes.

I am treating the IC as a part of the larger unit for all rules purposes. It just happen that a model in that larger unit has arrived from reserve and the larger unit can not assault.

Just to clarify, rigeld, are you arguing RAW in a vacuum, or do you actually play it this way on the tabletop?

DeathReaper wrote:It is just like defensive grenades. If a model in the unit has defensive grenades does the unit have defensive grenades? (A: Yes)

Same applies to units that have arrived from reserve.

If a model in the unit has arrived from reserve has that unit have arrived from reserve? (A: Yes)

It has? That might be a surprise to whatever unit shot at it last turn.
Regardless, you're applying a restriction with no allowance in the rules to do so.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you are attempting to treat the IC as a member of a nonexistent unit, you are not treating him as a member of the larger unit for all rules purposes.

I am treating the IC as a part of the larger unit for all rules purposes. It just happen that a model in that larger unit has arrived from reserve and the larger unit can not assault.

Is the charging restriction on models that arrive from reserve, or units that arrive from reserve?

Jimsolo wrote:Just to clarify, rigeld, are you arguing RAW in a vacuum, or do you actually play it this way on the tabletop?

It's literally never come up in any game I've ever played. To make it work you'd have to put an IC in reserves by itself - who does that? And then keep the desired unit near you back edge for an undetermined amount of turns, hoping that there'll be a target for assault when it arrives? Yeah, right.

Okay, but there are plenty of cases where the RAW says one thing but nobody plays it that way. I'm interested to know if you think this is a case like that, or if you think that reasonable people should actually play it the way you say the RAW reads.

I'm just curious. It colors the argument greatly, at least to me.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Okay, but there are plenty of cases where the RAW says one thing but nobody plays it that way. I'm interested to know if you think this is a case like that, or if you think that reasonable people should actually play it the way you say the RAW reads.

I'm just curious. It colors the argument greatly, at least to me.

I think it could go either way honestly.
If it came up in a game against me (because, honestly, I'd never do it - the only Nid ICs are near-useless) I'd let him do it.

Luckily the model/unit that came from reserves cannot leave the unit it is joined to, making it illegal for it to join another unit.

I am sure that any response would be along the lines of the IC rules stating that if an IC is within 2" of a friendly unit it becomes part of that unit.

Well, we have the reserve rules dictating that you can't do thay, so don't even try.

An IC coming in reserves by itself has no unit to leave.