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Yes I'm ready for a storm here just hear me out

I was sitting down with a friend the other day, and we got on talking about the new rules coming out.
Specifically the unbound rules

He brought up a very good point
here it is

Unbound makes the game better for all types of players


Tournament players, rejoice! Now, you're gonna have tons more variety. Because now things are limitless! You guys are gonna come up with tons of crazy lists. Tournaments will undoubtedly be more interesting. I think people who say tournaments will ban unbound are silly, I think unbound will be in the tournament scene's benefit.

Casual players, rejoice! Now you can make all of your fluff lists and have them be legal! Now you can make crazy and fun lists, and play them against other crazy and fun lists, and have a great time.
The game will become more entertaining

I am looking forward to unbound and the new edition.

I think doom and gloom preachers about unbound, either love to hate, or don't realize what its gonna do to the game.
No I'm not saying unbound will fix all of the problems the game has, its gonna break it even further. But not maybe in such a bad way. It's gonna make the game far more, for lack of a better word, interesting, and more fun.

My opinion

What do you think?

Ready the popcorn

+Edited to have a less controversial name+

From casual players perspective. I'll never give up my right to turn down a game, so this doesnt have a huge effect on me.

(a) I don't like playing against spam.
(b) I don't like playing against armies that should not be on the board together due to fluff.

The door is already wide open for these things...unbound will make it worse.

Bottom Line: for people who don't want to play against (a) and/or (b), 7th Edition will make it harder for us to get pickup games at a given flgs. Other than this single issue, I could care less.

Well, games with unbound rules were never forbidden in 40k.

In our local tournament we'll stick to FOC.

I've been out of competitive 40k for a while, but is there that big a difference between unbound and stacking multiple FoCs, allies, etc?

Also, will unbound allow allies? I'd think an unbound single codex army would have some strengths and weaknesses compared to a multi-codex combo plate.

Far as I can tell Unbound is basically small scale apoc so anything and everything. It's basically "formal" fun

Just think about the points you stated, OP, and try to think about the negative impacts as well.

Honestly barring release week when everyone will do it I suspect it won't dominate the game half as much as many are panicking that it will. Heck the kind of group that will adopt the rule as a majority likely already plays a form of unbound as it stands already.

There is nothing yet publish that points to Unbound units being Battle Brothers with everything in the same list. As such, Unbound has a pretty good chance of not bring optimal for playing to mission objectives, while Battleforged lists seem to have the advantage in most missions. If this stands to be true, we should see quite a bit of self induced army list comps in the competetive setting, simply to allow any given Unbound army the chance to win a non-massacre scenario. If it becomes standard to go Battleforged in order reach the top tables, Unbound will fall to casual play after the initial spam-fever settles out.

SJ

I don't like apoc, if 7th is going to be like apoc i'm not going to like 7th.

I don't want to face broken but fluffy armies the games already very imbalanced there was no need to make it more so.

The biggest problem I see is that a bound army doesn't have enough of an advantage to discourage an unbound army. Re-roll on the warlord table, whatever, at least allow them to pick their warlord trait if this is supposed to be a benefit of a bound army. Better ability to score is ok but the biggest problem here is that unbound armies are going to be very kill oriented and will likely just erase your troops heading for objectives with for example upwards of 6 heavy support choices.

What should really happen is that unbound armies have a penalty, I personally would like to see a 10% penalty in points.

In the current set up what I fear is going to happen is that bound armies will flood the board with contestable troops against ubound armies and unbound armies will take huge amounts of vehicles(likely the same vehicle). It will make regular TAC armies useless as no one will have enough anti tank to deal with the unbound spam, and it will make unbound armies unable to beat troop flood since they can't contest objectives.

It really is just waitning until 7th comes out and playing it before we can decide if unbound is good or bad.

I don't see unbound/bound changing much of anything for me. Especially if you compare it to double force org at 2k. Its the 'everything scores' and 'objective secured for troops' changes that are really going to shake the game up imo. I'm looking forward to it.

I disagree with everything said here. As a casual player this does nothing but make finding a pickup game more difficult and increases the chances of unbalanced games where the winner is decided by the first turn. That's not fun.
I'm glad that in your little group of like-minded chums you can come up with whatever you want and have fun. I was already doing that but with pickup games that's not really a choice, so really, I gained nothing from 7th. (well, I gained more problems I guess.)
Also, I don't have the money to go out and buy all the "crazy combinations!" TM of new armies. I have two tac list style armies and I now find that if I bring that against an unbound I'll get to re-roll on the warlord trait and score while his lemun russ spam list is wiping my army off the board.
Try to think outside of your own small gaming group at the big picture. Some people are being "very put off" by 7th and will be leaving or taking an extended break from GW. That's not good for the community or GW.

All unbounded really does for me is make me ditch my two minimum squads of gaunts in non-homebrew games to fit more skyblight swarms and FMCs.

For my other armies? Eh I'll figure out something I'm sure.

I do have a ridiculous royal court disco inferno in mind with a ridiculous number of ICs joined to it for the lulz though.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Spoiler:

 Njal Stormpuppy wrote:
Yes I'm ready for a storm here just hear me out

I was sitting down with a friend the other day, and we got on talking about the new rules coming out.
Specifically the unbound rules

He brought up a very good point
here it is

Unbound makes the game better for all types of players


Tournament players, rejoice! Now, you're gonna have tons more variety. Because now things are limitless! You guys are gonna come up with tons of crazy lists. Tournaments will undoubtedly be more interesting. I think people who say tournaments will ban unbound are silly, I think unbound will be in the tournament scene's benefit.

Casual players, rejoice! Now you can make all of your fluff lists and have them be legal! Now you can make crazy and fun lists, and play them against other crazy and fun lists, and have a great time.
The game will become more entertaining

I am looking forward to unbound and the new edition.

I think doom and gloom preachers about unbound, either love to hate, or don't realize what its gonna do to the game.
No I'm not saying unbound will fix all of the problems the game has, its gonna break it even further. But not maybe in such a bad way. It's gonna make the game far more, for lack of a better word, interesting, and more fun.

My opinion

What do you think?

Ready the popcorn

I disagree with everything said here. As a casual player this does nothing but make finding a pickup game more difficult and increases the chances of unbalanced games where the winner is decided by the first turn. That's not fun.
I'm glad that in your little group of like-minded chums you can come up with whatever you want and have fun. I was already doing that but with pickup games that's not really a choice, so really, I gained nothing from 7th. (well, I gained more problems I guess.)
Also, I don't have the money to go out and buy all the "crazy combinations!" TM of new armies. I have two tac list style armies and I now find that if I bring that against an unbound I'll get to re-roll on the warlord trait and score while his lemun russ spam list is wiping my army off the board.
Try to think outside of your own small gaming group at the big picture. Some people are being "very put off" by 7th and will be leaving or taking an extended break from GW. That's not good for the community or GW.

Yup...its already hard enough to find a pickup game in my area. Now, I will have (a) to ask a guy for a pickup game, (b) see if his army consists of 15 Lehman Russes, (c) decide if I want to play against that kind of army, and (d) be forced to play a game I dont want to play, or alientate the guy by telling him I dont want to play against his army.

Or option e

e) Agree to play a bound game instead of unbound with the guy.

Honestly how many people do you think will rush out - buy silly numbers of (oft) expensive and large models and field that as their only army?

Apoc didn't make everyone play Apoc only now and ever and Unbound won't likely become the default. Sure it will be fun now and then, but I suspect most groups will still gravitate toward the normal force limited games that we know and love.

I pretty much see "unbound" as being DOA for any kind of tournament play as well as for pickup games in any serious gaming clubs.

 Overread wrote:
Or option e

e) Agree to play a bound game instead of unbound with the guy.

Honestly how many people do you think will rush out - buy silly numbers of (oft) expensive and large models and field that as their only army?

Apoc didn't make everyone play Apoc only now and ever and Unbound won't likely become the default. Sure it will be fun now and then, but I suspect most groups will still gravitate toward the normal force limited games that we know and love.

In all cases where I've gotten a pickup game at an flgs, the opponent brought 1 army. I've never had the luxury of telling anyone at an flgs if I can play against the "other army that you brought", because it doesn't exist.

I already know alot of guys who have like 10+ Greater Demons, 15+ Lehman Russes, stuff like that.

This won't be an issue at all with my gaming group...only for the prospects of pickup games against people I don't know.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

This won't be an issue at all with my gaming group...only for the prospects of pickup games against people I don't know.

I'm sure they'll be friendly too.
Might help to book games a week in advance or setup a messenger board to book games during the week with each other

I think I have finally found out what the problem is here Of course this is not for everyone but most. Who plays 40K? Geeks and Nerds. What do Geeks and Nerds love? Math, or something math related. What is math? Known facts. Something that can be calculated. Something that can and will be Mathhammered.

What an edition changed does? Unknown. Can't be calculated. Unbound is an uncertainty that can't be calculated right now. Just like how Flyers was going to be the doom and gloom and just like how Allies was going to be all doom and gloom. Once it was calculated and the ODDS better know it was no longer all doom and gloom. Still unfair, but once facts were established the complaints went down hill big time.

I think Unbound is AWESOME. People can finally play the FLUFFY armies that they want. People who want to win with plastic toy soldiers can still abuse the system like they would be doing anyways without Unbound existing.

Once everything is known and be able to be CALCULATED people will calm down.

Davor wrote:
I think I have finally found out what the problem is here Of course this is not for everyone but most. Who plays 40K? Geeks and Nerds. What do Geeks and Nerds love? Math, or something math related. What is math? Known facts. Something that can be calculated. Something that can and will be Mathhammered.

What an edition changed does? Unknown. Can't be calculated. Unbound is an uncertainty that can't be calculated right now. Just like how Flyers was going to be the doom and gloom and just like how Allies was going to be all doom and gloom. Once it was calculated and the ODDS better know it was no longer all doom and gloom. Still unfair, but once facts were established the complaints went down hill big time.

I think Unbound is AWESOME. People can finally play the FLUFFY armies that they want. People who want to win with plastic toy soldiers can still abuse the system like they would be doing anyways without Unbound existing.

Once everything is known and be able to be CALCULATED people will calm down.

Dude, just stop it.
I don't love math. I friggin' hate it. I double majored in History and Art and minored in creative writing.
I'm an author/illustrator and I love fluffy armies and all that creative stuff.
And I detest the idea of Unbound.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Spoiler:

 Njal Stormpuppy wrote:
Yes I'm ready for a storm here just hear me out

I was sitting down with a friend the other day, and we got on talking about the new rules coming out.
Specifically the unbound rules

He brought up a very good point
here it is

Unbound makes the game better for all types of players


Tournament players, rejoice! Now, you're gonna have tons more variety. Because now things are limitless! You guys are gonna come up with tons of crazy lists. Tournaments will undoubtedly be more interesting. I think people who say tournaments will ban unbound are silly, I think unbound will be in the tournament scene's benefit.

Casual players, rejoice! Now you can make all of your fluff lists and have them be legal! Now you can make crazy and fun lists, and play them against other crazy and fun lists, and have a great time.
The game will become more entertaining

I am looking forward to unbound and the new edition.

I think doom and gloom preachers about unbound, either love to hate, or don't realize what its gonna do to the game.
No I'm not saying unbound will fix all of the problems the game has, its gonna break it even further. But not maybe in such a bad way. It's gonna make the game far more, for lack of a better word, interesting, and more fun.

My opinion

What do you think?

Ready the popcorn

I disagree with everything said here. As a casual player this does nothing but make finding a pickup game more difficult and increases the chances of unbalanced games where the winner is decided by the first turn. That's not fun.
I'm glad that in your little group of like-minded chums you can come up with whatever you want and have fun. I was already doing that but with pickup games that's not really a choice, so really, I gained nothing from 7th. (well, I gained more problems I guess.)
Also, I don't have the money to go out and buy all the "crazy combinations!" TM of new armies. I have two tac list style armies and I now find that if I bring that against an unbound I'll get to re-roll on the warlord trait and score while his lemun russ spam list is wiping my army off the board.
Try to think outside of your own small gaming group at the big picture. Some people are being "very put off" by 7th and will be leaving or taking an extended break from GW. That's not good for the community or GW.

From what I've seen so far 7th looks like all 6ths problems on steroids.

As a side not to all the complaints, "I will not play this, I will not play that", "I refuse to play this, I refuse to play that", how come it's ok for people to play last turn vehicle rush, and have the All Powerful Mighty Space Marines hiding and cowering in vehicles to win a game? This is no fun for me, and almost EVERYONE did it.

So basically you are saying, "play my way, or don't play at all". So in other words you are telling people how to play you way by house ruling stuff. If you don't like the rules, then don't buy new rules and keep playing by the edition you do like. I am sick and tired of how people tell me how to play the game. They don't tell me how to play the game, they tell me how to play their way. So where is the fun in that?

Why not take a breather, and make compromises? You are already "house ruling" things. Why does it have to be "My way"? Right there you are not letting people play their way or a way where BOTH people can have fun.

To many people are acting like I am holier than though, and if you don't play my way, there is no game. Why not try the rules first before making these kind of statements. You might actually find you like the rules. Then again you may find you don't like the rules but at least you tried it and can speak from experience then.

When I had to play, I had to play games that were no fun for me. People REFUSED to play for fun. Not a lot of people here are thinking about the other person, just themselves, and thinking of what "may" happen without exactly speaking of any experience. Please someone put up their hand who played with 15 Leeman Russ tanks.

I think somebody needs a hug and a nap.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Davor wrote:
I think I have finally found out what the problem is here Of course this is not for everyone but most. Who plays 40K? Geeks and Nerds. What do Geeks and Nerds love? Math, or something math related. What is math? Known facts. Something that can be calculated. Something that can and will be Mathhammered.

What an edition changed does? Unknown. Can't be calculated. Unbound is an uncertainty that can't be calculated right now. Just like how Flyers was going to be the doom and gloom and just like how Allies was going to be all doom and gloom. Once it was calculated and the ODDS better know it was no longer all doom and gloom. Still unfair, but once facts were established the complaints went down hill big time.

I think Unbound is AWESOME. People can finally play the FLUFFY armies that they want. People who want to win with plastic toy soldiers can still abuse the system like they would be doing anyways without Unbound existing.

Once everything is known and be able to be CALCULATED people will calm down.

Dude, just stop it.
I don't love math. I friggin' hate it. I double majored in History and Art and minored in creative writing.
I'm an author/illustrator and I love fluffy armies and all that creative stuff.
And I detest the idea of Unbound.

Stop what? I just posted this the first time? I never said this ever before. What part of "not for everyone" you don't get when I said that? I didn't even pick you out? So why are you so upset at what I said? I wasn't picking on you. I didn't quote you, and just made a general comment of all the negativity on here. Just because you "detest" Unbound doesn't mean people who like it are wrong. You are not wrong, I am not wrong. We all have our opinion.

It's good you don't like math. I don't like it either. Not smart enough for it. But I am talking from experience and what I see people say on the forums. It may not apply to you but applies to other people. Why you are taking offence to this, I don't understand, it was never aimed at you.

wasnt one of the rules for the "Bound" armies that you can take unlimited detachments from within your own codex? as long as each detachment has 1 HQ 2 Troops your golden.

so in that canse if you want lots of HQ your good, you can have a primary with what you need and 2-3 others that are HQ and troops...

Ok let me right some wrongs here
First off, im gonna emphasize that this is all my opinion
I contemplated including within the thread that unbound does separate players by a longshot. Unbound does bad things to a combined playerbase, that meaning both casual and hardcore players in the same setting. But it does good things in a single niche setting. I expect tournaments will be more varied and interesting because of new options, i dont expect 3 or 4 lists to dominate alone any longer. And as a casual player myself Im looking forward to playing fun games with crazy armies with my friends. Unbound does good things to players in separate niches, but also discourages the mix of those niches

Davor wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Davor wrote:
I think I have finally found out what the problem is here Of course this is not for everyone but most. Who plays 40K? Geeks and Nerds. What do Geeks and Nerds love? Math, or something math related. What is math? Known facts. Something that can be calculated. Something that can and will be Mathhammered.

What an edition changed does? Unknown. Can't be calculated. Unbound is an uncertainty that can't be calculated right now. Just like how Flyers was going to be the doom and gloom and just like how Allies was going to be all doom and gloom. Once it was calculated and the ODDS better know it was no longer all doom and gloom. Still unfair, but once facts were established the complaints went down hill big time.

I think Unbound is AWESOME. People can finally play the FLUFFY armies that they want. People who want to win with plastic toy soldiers can still abuse the system like they would be doing anyways without Unbound existing.

Once everything is known and be able to be CALCULATED people will calm down.

Dude, just stop it.
I don't love math. I friggin' hate it. I double majored in History and Art and minored in creative writing.
I'm an author/illustrator and I love fluffy armies and all that creative stuff.
And I detest the idea of Unbound.

Stop what? I just posted this the first time? I never said this ever before. What part of "not for everyone" you don't get when I said that? I didn't even pick you out? So why are you so upset at what I said? I wasn't picking on you. I didn't quote you, and just made a general comment of all the negativity on here. Just because you "detest" Unbound doesn't mean people who like it are wrong. You are not wrong, I am not wrong. We all have our opinion.

It's good you don't like math. I don't like it either. Not smart enough for it. But I am talking from experience and what I see people say on the forums. It may not apply to you but applies to other people. Why you are taking offence to this, I don't understand, it was never aimed at you.

I was objecting to your insulting generalization that "every one that doesn't like Unbound is a math nerd." Maybe that's not what you meant, but its what you said and I found it rude and ignorant and I was telling you to stop making inaccurate and insulting generalizations.

There are two types of players:

1. Those who play regularly with a group of close friends, i.e. a "gaming group"

2. Those to look to play unknown/random people, usually in gaming stores or tournaments.

Unbound doesn't change much for #1. For #2, it makes the game even more difficult to enjoy for that player than they already were.

That's why I think Unbound will be the beginning of the end for GW: they're simply too focused on #1, and they NEED to support #2 as well to have a large enough market to stay viable.

3. Competitive players

4. Gaming Clubs

Clubs are different from smaller gaming groups and include both competitive and non-competitive players.