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Hi there, new here to the forums and fairly new to the game. I've been playing for a few months now with the traitor marines, and I'm absolutely in love with them despite being on the weaker side of things this edition. But, what they lack in good choices across the board, they do have options! And dem giant fire-breathing turkeys.

My opponents are a few long-time players with all Xeno lists, not a single smurf or 'umie to be found amongst them except for a budding Blood Angels list, only 500 points whereas we play usually at 1500. The opposition includes:

Dark Eldar - heavily mechanized
Eldar Iyanden - all wraithguard, ALL THE TIME! Very much a fluff list, but can still be a threat without proper firepower
Tau - 1 Tide, a few devilfish, and a hammerhead round out a mechanized Tau list full of firewarriors and pathfinders
Daemons - a very unusual Daemons list that does not have a Fateweaver, but does run a Bloodthirster and Belakor. Features Horrors as the main shooting threat
Necrons - soon to be mechanized
Tyranids - 2 MCs, bunch of little dudes, usual Nids.

I've recently been (finally!) having some success with this most recent iteration of my CSMs, but I feel like it could use a few tweaks to do even better. My current list is:

Chaos Lord (Bike, Nurgle, Sigil, Burning Brand, Fisticlaws, Gift of Mutation)
Daemon Prince (Tzeench, Wings, Armor, Black Mace)

2 x Cultists (no add-ons)
2 x CSM (4 additional troops, no weapon upgrades)

Heldrake (Baleflamer)
Bikers (2 additional, 2x Meltas, Combi-Melta on the Aspiring Champion, Nurgle)

2 x Obliterators (single dudes)
2 x Havocs (4 x Autocannons)

Rounds out to I think almost exactly 1500 without checking my sheet, and while I am having a ton of fun fielding it right now, I think it can be a bit better. For one, I have had minimal success with the bikers, and even the biker lord, as my opponents armies can deal quite well with Quality units rather than Quantity. The T6 tends to not matter as they get annihilated a board away, and by the time they find a vehicle unit to hunt down, they're too weak to do their job. I could be fielding them wrong, but they have yet to make back their points in a game. The D Prince however has been fantastic, and always makes back his points. They Heavy Support and him are the keystones of this list, and of course the Drake is a significant threat, but I can only take 1 according to house rules.

Let me know what you guys think, I'm very open to feedback about the list.

Cultists are best fielded in squads of 20, other wise your paying 50 points for 5 cultists 10 pts per guy when they only cost 5pts

Dont waste the points on the GoM it is to random to be of any use. seriously drop that pos

I assume your Chaos lord will be with the bikers and if so if not put him with the bikers

If you don have a preference try your Deamon Prince with the mark of nurgle. +2 to your cover save is pretty kick ass with a MC who hugs cover to begin with

Put the oblits together and if possible proxy a third, they will make your opponents go

Last if you can find the points add some special weapons on the csm squad. i have a magnetized csm and a special weapon for almost every instance

But yeah thats just my thoughts take em or leave em

I'm going to disagree with the above and say keep the oblits separate so if one of them dies the other wont pick up his skirt and run.

Unless you really, really know what you're doing, CSM should only be taken with 2X special weapons (Same one) and a naked rhino. For example:

10 CSM- 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino

You will be dissapointed with 1 FMC. They need saturation to be effective, just like armor.

GoM can be fun. If you have nothing else to spend the points on, spend it here.

You have no where good to put the Biker Lord. Personally I find the Daemon heart is the best upgrade on him 2+ arnour and IWND is brilliant. Nurgle Spawn are the unit he shoukd run with. That way you have 15 T6 wounds to accompany him.

Oblits need MoN always. CSMs acheive nothing as equipped. They should always be 10 man with 2 plasmas in a Rhino or not bother.

DP and Helldrake both suffer from being solo. DP needs another Prince for target Saturation. Whilst Hellsrakes work best in 2s or preferably 3s. I think for this list you may be better off dropping both for 2 squads of Nurgle Bikers to run alongside the Lord.

Up both Cultist squads to at least 20 and then get yourself some Psykers! In the New edition they look like they could be power houses so get some to add to the fun. Fortunately it loojs like you're not up against any competent lists but I would still advise trying to get a central idea of how you want the list to play as a whole. Then take units that help that goal and only units that help that goal. This ensures synergy in your list and efficiency. The more tactically flexible you try to make your list and units the less effective they will become. In a game where everyone starts with the same points whoever uses those points most efficiently will win.

 changerofways wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the above and say keep the oblits separate so if one of them dies the other wont pick up his skirt and run.

Unless you really, really know what you're doing, CSM should only be taken with 2X special weapons (Same one) and a naked rhino. For example:

10 CSM- 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino

You will be dissapointed with 1 FMC. They need saturation to be effective, just like armor.

GoM can be fun. If you have nothing else to spend the points on, spend it here.

YOU are stupid. You literally have no clue on what your talking about.
1. A Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince!! Idk if you are aware but most things must roll 6's to hit something flying so unless your running a tau force, stop talking!
2. I'v had vanilla csm squads get assaulted by multiple 20 man termagaunt/hormagaunt squads and repel all of them!! Unless they have a specific specific job special weapons are a waste of points
3. Spread your oblits out?? Well if your letting people shoot at your oblits before they shoot, you suck at life!
4. YOU RECOMMEND THE GoM!!! Your are either the all out luckiest individual alive or your just love spawn. Voting to risk changing your most powerful guys into spawn?! yeah, REAL smart, NOT

So do us REAL CSM players a favor and stop posting, thanks!

Well a few things to this ^^

1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
4) sometimes, the GoM means you have to re roll spawn and DP rolls, so you won't spawn with it, just probably get some useless POS, but really, if you have nothing else I say go for it.

GoM on the Warlord MAYBE if he has Exalted Champion. But in any other instance no sir.

 jackflashultra wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the above and say keep the oblits separate so if one of them dies the other wont pick up his skirt and run.

Unless you really, really know what you're doing, CSM should only be taken with 2X special weapons (Same one) and a naked rhino. For example:

10 CSM- 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino

You will be dissapointed with 1 FMC. They need saturation to be effective, just like armor.

GoM can be fun. If you have nothing else to spend the points on, spend it here.

YOU are stupid. You literally have no clue on what your talking about.
1. A Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince!! Idk if you are aware but most things must roll 6's to hit something flying so unless your running a tau force, stop talking!
2. I'v had vanilla csm squads get assaulted by multiple 20 man termagaunt/hormagaunt squads and repel all of them!! Unless they have a specific specific job special weapons are a waste of points
3. Spread your oblits out?? Well if your letting people shoot at your oblits before they shoot, you suck at life!
4. YOU RECOMMEND THE GoM!!! Your are either the all out luckiest individual alive or your just love spawn. Voting to risk changing your most powerful guys into spawn?! yeah, REAL smart, NOT

So do us REAL CSM players a favor and stop posting, thanks!

That is harsh, abrasive, abusive, and just make you look like an a-hole... Welcome to dakkadakka, fellow brutish csm player, where everyone thinks they know everything and are experts!

If you run csm in squads of 10, they're usually better off with 2xSpecial weapon and a combi-weapon. I prefer 2 palmas and a combi-plazma/melta. Ability to take 2 special weapons in a squad of marines is something loyalists really want.

I'd not put much trust in a single daemon prince in CSM army. He's super expensive and i'm not sure if he'll pay off. CSM daemon princes do not get all the fancy stuff C: Daemons DP get. And that'll hurt. However, if you can hide him well, he's gona be fine. Use DP surgically and hope not to get grounded. He's super effective in CC with a black mace, though, you'll have significant problems with durability on the way there.

Obliterators are usually better off separately. First of all, they have issues with leadership. Besides, if your opponent has concentrated ammount of ap1-2 weaponry or blasts, you'd want more MSU of oblits in different places. This is also making them more flexible. Even a single oblit is a threat - i'd prefer them in different places. But this tactix is limited with the ammount of free HS slots.

Gift of Mutation is a fun thing. Be warned that >50% of time it's gona be completely useless. However, you can get stuff like 2+ armor, shrowded, +1 wound, +1 str, Eternal warrior, etc. It's not that bad on an HQ. It might be a force multiplier but it's by no means mandatory upgrade. Though, it's in a spirit of CSM to go for it! Rewards might be great or miserable. Things happen.

Well that was a bit rude as for the numbered points:

1) Why would Tau be hitting on something other than 6s have you any clue about the game? 1 DP dies the minute the enemy gets any line of sight at it. That may change with 7th but we don't know.

2) Boltgun marines are bad. Even with ATSKNF for just 1 point they are bad. Even with ATSKNF and bolter drill they are still very mediocre. CSM get lots of downsides the only upside they have is access to 2 special weapons (and switching to CCWs if assault becomes viable again in 7th).

3) Oblits don't earn their points in 1 shot unless you are very lucky. If he has free HS slots there is literally no down side to spliting. Personally I'd just take more, lots more.

4) GoM is bad but only 10 points given how inefficient the list as a whole is it is not the most pressing concern and if he likes it for flavour it is only 10 points. But yes he should drop it but has many other ways that can improve his list far more dramatically.

CSM are really not bad with ccw in a landraider. Cheaper and a bit worse than khorne zerks with ability to take meltas.

If you compare:
Zerks without upgrades are 181 pt per 8+champ
CSM with marks and an icon that gives them furious charge and reroll charge distance cost 165 pts.

They're literally the same but trade fearless (will probably be with a lord anywayz) and +1 WS for reroll charge distance and furious charge for the indep. You most likely won't need that +1 ws taking into consideration the number of s5 attacks. And reroll charge distance is a huge thing with unstable charges now.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well that was a bit rude as for the numbered points:

1) Why would Tau be hitting on something other than 6s have you any clue about the game? 1 DP dies the minute the enemy gets any line of sight at it. That may change with 7th but we don't know.

2) Boltgun marines are bad. Even with ATSKNF for just 1 point they are bad. Even with ATSKNF and bolter drill they are still very mediocre. CSM get lots of downsides the only upside they have is access to 2 special weapons (and switching to CCWs if assault becomes viable again in 7th).

3) Oblits don't earn their points in 1 shot unless you are very lucky. If he has free HS slots there is literally no down side to spliting. Personally I'd just take more, lots more.

4) GoM is bad but only 10 points given how inefficient the list as a whole is it is not the most pressing concern and if he likes it for flavour it is only 10 points. But yes he should drop it but has many other ways that can improve his list far more dramatically.

1) he means tau can and will use marker lights, or will have skyfire, so I guess he has some clue about this game.

2) not really, boltguns are free on CSM troops and can force wounds through, it beats lasguns.

3) true

4) its chaos space marines, unless you have 4 drakes and 3 DP your list will never be "efficient".

1) Only the Skyray has skyfire and the Burstcannon Riptide is you're playing Enclaves. Why would he bother using Markerlights he'll just kill the DP with Broadsides like every decent Tau player does for AA.

2) CSMs are not free boltguns cost you 13pts per model to field, yes a boltgun is better than a lasgun but at 5pts a model for bs4 lasguns they'll do more damage per point than boltgun CSMs but even then you don't take them for the lasguns but for the 3 special weapons...

4) yeah that's about right.

So if you agree with all points I think we have settled this like gentlemen! Here Here!

 jackflashultra wrote:
Cultists are best fielded in squads of 20, other wise your paying 50 points for 5 cultists 10 pts per guy when they only cost 5pts

Read your codex carefully before coming here and calling people stupid, in fact, even if you are right (you're not) this is not the forum for calling names or having your kind of attitude.

 jackflashultra wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the above and say keep the oblits separate so if one of them dies the other wont pick up his skirt and run.

Unless you really, really know what you're doing, CSM should only be taken with 2X special weapons (Same one) and a naked rhino. For example:

10 CSM- 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino

You will be dissapointed with 1 FMC. They need saturation to be effective, just like armor.

GoM can be fun. If you have nothing else to spend the points on, spend it here.

YOU are stupid. You literally have no clue on what your talking about.
1. A Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince is a Deamon Prince!! Idk if you are aware but most things must roll 6's to hit something flying so unless your running a tau force, stop talking!
2. I'v had vanilla csm squads get assaulted by multiple 20 man termagaunt/hormagaunt squads and repel all of them!! Unless they have a specific specific job special weapons are a waste of points
3. Spread your oblits out?? Well if your letting people shoot at your oblits before they shoot, you suck at life!
4. YOU RECOMMEND THE GoM!!! Your are either the all out luckiest individual alive or your just love spawn. Voting to risk changing your most powerful guys into spawn?! yeah, REAL smart, NOT

So do us REAL CSM players a favor and stop posting, thanks!

wow thanks mate your a bit of an donkey-cave i see, number 1, spltting oblits is well better... WELL WELL better, it means a few things goes like this..
1) any shooting at them means OVERKILL... if they do 10 wounds to 1 model in shooting they can only kill the ONE of them not both...
2) any shooting YOU DO isnt wasted. as in oh look that first LC killed that tank, oh well have to waste a second shot, nope they are in seperate units, so guess what i can send its shots elsewhere..
3) the second one wont fail its miserable LD test and leg it.
4) oblits tend to be a target priority because of what they do.

so give those that KNOW better less of your attitude.

your annecdotal evidence of vanilla marines is just that, anecdotal.
vanilla marines are TERRIBLE in csm. absolutle god aweful.

leave cultists in units of 10, its not about pts efficiency with them, its purely filling troop slots. and ppm are better than basic marines. dont mark them, just use and abuse them.

Daemon princes took a nerf with 7th ed, cant land and assault in 7th, and who in their right mind in CSM is using one as a shooty prince? so your not gonna be flying much... your choice of Tzeentch is the better one of all of them. take wings to make him jump. take psyker powers, biomancy him. youll get 2 tzeentch power, and 2 biomancy ones.

if you ever need something in the way of SM troops and you have a nurgle lord, go with Plague Marines, 2 SW per 5, plus all the other shiny rules.

oh and finally if like the person i quoted spews venom like they did at someone else... probably best to ignore them

Well I disagree with some of your ideas,

1) sure
2) 9/10 it will take more then 1 lascannon to kill anything needing a 6 to explode.
3) not a big problem seeing how the average roll on 2 dice is 7.
4) true

But by splitting them up you do a few things

1) lose heavy slots (which in 7th may or may not matter)
2) when casting prescience on them it becomes impossible with all the split units.
3) becomes more kill points.

So you get some trade offs, though I do agree that the advice changerofways was giving wasn't very useful, by no means should you have a seizure on your keyboard about it.

What about a chaos knight? Sure its a come the apocalypse ally, but the restrictions aren't so bad, and they are handy!

A chaos knight would be awesome! Come the apoc is a joke so take what ever you want, daemon possessed nids? Bayym you got it! Chaos eldrad? Yes!

 Arbiter wrote:
Well I disagree with some of your ideas,

1) sure
2) 9/10 it will take more then 1 lascannon to kill anything needing a 6 to explode.
3) not a big problem seeing how the average roll on 2 dice is 7.
4) true

But by splitting them up you do a few things

1) lose heavy slots (which in 7th may or may not matter)
2) when casting prescience on them it becomes impossible with all the split units.
3) becomes more kill points.

So you get some trade offs, though I do agree that the advice changerofways was giving wasn't very useful, by no means should you have a seizure on your keyboard about it.

ok to point 2 though sure it will need more than 1 LC shot, it explodes on a 5 though. not amazing but then again, its all about lucking out and getting that 5 (well 6 now in 7th). if a Melta/MM its a 5. ibut it means that if the first one is lucky, then you wont want the others..
3) because if youd do fail it and you can, and likely will... because there is more than just the average roll, they are off the board,

losing heavy slots in 7th, its still an issue but if your taking 2 hq and 4 troops, you have 6 slots for oblits
2) where you getting prescience from so far you can get it from a daemon ally or that 1 sorc in the suppliment. aside from that no access to it and its hardcer to cast now than ever
and more kill points in 1 mission out of the basic 6, after that... its a win win, also now they are scoring all the time, so its 6 more basic scoring units ( or however many you are taking) so yes in big guns they will be a bigger liability, for the KP, but thats the only time. outside of that its a huge advantage,

with 7th depending on what your taking, you can go nuts... its crazy now, and my post was more aimed at 7th than 6th if that makes sense, where you can have as many HS slots (unlimited FOC as you can pay the HQ + troops tax).
things id be considering for 7th would be a cheap sorc + cultists as openers for the FoC tax. will leave you with plenty ofg power dice for casting and denying spells

All i'm doing is showing both sides of the coin ^^.

Though a chaos knight would still look awesome.

agree on that 100% and under 7th you can take one as an ally

all you need to do is deploy it 12" from other models, and keep it 6" away and your good to go