Dust Tactics/Warfare/Battlefield: Operation Babylon Kickstarter (Goes live 8:00pm GMT)

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**His Master's Voice**

Alpharius wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.

It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.

Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...

Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?

You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...

**overtyrant**

His Master's Voice wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.

It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.

Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...

Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?

You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...

But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....

**Catyrpelius**

Just to answer the two good points raised by Michael below.

1. You are absolutely correct about the fact we always wanted to put heroes in the army deals. The difference is that they were created to be sold at a higher retail price, US$170. These armies at full retail have $177 of product in them already, effectively giving you one of the infantry squads for free. The additional figure is another $10 so at the $100k threshold you will be getting $187 of models for $150 or 25% discount on what you purchased. Not even close to the retail price if you bought them separately, in fact quite a good deal really.

2.This is the first time we have split the campaign set out into its parts. The book is double the size and content of anything done before with four double sided posters and a three sheets of card terrain for $20. This is cheap compared to any other "book" product on the market from any company even if you threw the card and posters away.

The models are to be sold separately so that both Tactics and Warfare players can choose to just get the one they really want, something all previous sets did not give you the choice to do.

Lastly let me say that all of these models come with cards for both Tactics and Warfare, something Warfare players appreciate seeing as they have never been given cards before we came along.

Taken from the the Kickstarter comments....

**Uriels_Flame**

Is that a serious comment?

Wow - good to see they are sticking to their guns I guess.

**Catyrpelius**

Uriels_Flame wrote:
Is that a serious comment?

Wow - good to see they are sticking to their guns I guess.

It was a comment made by the creator of the porject roughly 6 hours ago...

**Alpharius**

They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?

I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!

**RogueRegault**

Interesting that their $150 "deal" would have cost about $100 through online retailers back when FFG was producing the game. Even now, the MSRP of $170 suggests a price of $136 on MM or Coolstuffinc.

Will have to see what stretch goals they'll add.

Personally I'm hoping for at least a pack of the heroes that are currently expansions only, for those of us Warfare players who don't want a bunch of map tiles we'll never use.

**Catyrpelius**

Alpharius wrote:
They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?

I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!

You could also argue that looking at the comments alot of people are in the same boat as me... I'm in not because there was an early bird, but if the deal doesn't get much better or their tone doesn't change I'm going to back out towards the end.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueRegault wrote:
Interesting that their $150 "deal" would have cost about $100 through online retailers back when FFG was producing the game. Even now, the MSRP of $170 suggests a price of $136 on MM or Coolstuffinc.

Will have to see what stretch goals they'll add.

Personally I'm hoping for at least a pack of the heroes that are currently expansions only, for those of us Warfare players who don't want a bunch of map tiles we'll never use.

FFG sold a hero pack... A quick look on The Warstores website shows that each are instock and sell for $14.99, their called hero packs.

**Triple9**

My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.

A hint to established companies going on KS. If you are skipping distributors and going directly to consumers, you have to think of a happy medium between wholesale and retail pricing to make the deal worthwhile.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.

Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.

They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...

... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.

If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.

**PomWallaby**

I was suckered in by the Early Bird pledge levels (again). A free mini is a free mini but it is all too easy to slap some Early Bird deals on a project for an early spike and call a project a success.
All this Dust Kickstarter has shown me so far is just how many good deals are already out there for Dust. (Without the Kickstarter Risk).
I am going to take a rain check on this and come back in 30 days.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Honestly... there were a few units I wanted a couple more of, and I obviously want a V2.0 rulebook, and new cards...

I'm not looking for strech-goal miracles, etc... but if the Battlefront folks (who we now know are the ones actually posting all the "official responses) don't come across as less belligerent, i'll probably just place one big order online elsewhere, and forget about all the Babylon models until I can find them similarly priced.

This isn't one of those times were're quibbling about value when it is a matter of +/- 5% or couple more freebie models... This is an instance where I can literally buy almost twice the product, just by going to any webstore which I already frequent.

**Alpharius**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.

Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.

They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...

... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.

If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.

While it is clearly, and obviously, well within their rights to run their business however they like, this is very much SOP for Battlefront.

**Catyrpelius**

Alpharius wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
You know... I wanted to keep my opinion out of this, but i'm feeling a little personally irked.

Last night, I commented, harmlessly, but honestly, on their KS comments about the troublesome pricing. I told them what I pay on a regular basis for their products, and was told by the official KS creator/rep that clearly I had been buying product at a pricing error, or somehow got a deal BELOW what they sell their products at, at the distribution level.

They literally didn't believe my prices could be correct...

... at which point I mentioned Coolstuff, Miniatures Market, etc... and the fact that even a lazy consumer without any saavy shopping could fall onto a significantly better price, without trying.

If these attitudes and prices are marking the new normal for this system, now that Battlefront is in charge... well then I am truly well out.

While it is clearly, and obviously, well within their rights to run their business however they like, this is very much SOP for Battlefront.

Yup, historically Battlefront holds retailers to a maximum of a 10% discount...

I like both Dust and Flames of War, but I honestly can't remember the last time I saw either being played at any of the FLGS's I frequent.

**Necros**

So, did they purposely launch the campaign on the same day as the release date for the new Wolfenstein game?

**KalashnikovMarine**

overtyrant wrote:
His Master's Voice wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.

It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.

Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...

Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?

You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...

But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....

From what my LGS is telling me (Games and Stuff in Bodymore, Murderland) we, being the consumer, can go to our local retailer, and purchase anything from the KS via your local retailer. You don't pledge to the KS, just make an order with your FLGS. When fulfillment comes they ship straight to your store, no shipping costs incurred to yourself, etc.

Triple9 wrote:
My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.

Just shy of 100k in under 24 hours says you're wrong.

**Catyrpelius**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
overtyrant wrote:
His Master's Voice wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Funk is a $22 dollar stretch goal.

It's only available if you pledge for both an army and the campaign rules.

Or if you wait until retail and get them cheaper, and get to use your money now on other things...

Have they tried to explain the whole "all already available to distributors" thing yet?

You think they can come up with anything beyond "we want more money"? Kinda hard given the circumstances...

But but but they said they were all about supporting retailers.....

From what my LGS is telling me (Games and Stuff in Bodymore, Murderland) we, being the consumer, can go to our local retailer, and purchase anything from the KS via your local retailer. You don't pledge to the KS, just make an order with your FLGS. When fulfillment comes they ship straight to your store, no shipping costs incurred to yourself, etc.

Triple9 wrote:
My take is that they are applying a European model (ie., no discounts) on a US crowdfunding site in USD Not even shipping is included. Absolutely no reason for me to back this one. They seriously misjudged their target audience here and their responses in the comments pretty much prove it.

Just shy of 100k in under 24 hours says you're wrong.

In the world of Kickstarters 100k in the first 24 hours is not really even worth noticing...

**KalashnikovMarine**

100k isn't anything to sniff at, in KS or no. It doesn't need to do a million dollars, most KS don't. It needs to get the product made and delivered and that's happened for sure. One hour to hit the pledge goal ain't bad at all my man.

scarletsquig wrote:

I think this might be the clearest cut "already funded, just a preorder" KS we've seen in a while. Their cute infographic on the KS front page about how they'd have to wait to release this all really slowly if they didn't use KS is looking a touch ridiculous when retailers have already been buying all the stuff before this even launched.

I do have some interest in this game, but hopefully FFG will have more to do with it in future than battlefront.

FFG got bought out by Battlefront so they have nothing to do with them.

As to Efigs, you do realize that distributors get info sheets well in advance from established companies like Battlefront. That doesn't mean they're able to purchase the product now, or even be able to put pre-orders in with Battlefront's distribution system.

**Alpharius**

At least $100K will finally see 1 free miniature added to each set.

**Piston Honda**

Alpharius wrote:
They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?

I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!

Dust has a small but very vocal and loyal community.

**Triple9**

I may be wrong; I may be right. What we'll have to wait and see is if there is a backslide when the mid-KS lull occurs and if the perceived value is not there. If it happens, will they throw gobs of shinies at it and be recoverable ala Mantic or go into Thon territory.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Piston Honda wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
They've dug their heels in - and who's to say it isn't working?

I still can't believe the total is as high as it is already!

Dust has a small but very vocal and loyal community.

See... i'd concur... but I AM said loyal community, and even I am not drunk enough to buy things at inflated prices while the company is being an ass to me as a bonus. :-p

Like I said earlier... I enthusiastically bought at least one of every single item they had ever released... until this Kickstarter which leaves me feeling uncomfortable... especially while preorders are already up at TheWarStore for the exact same items and at the price i'd have expected all along.

Now they're claiming the sets MSRP is $170, and TheWarStore is outright wrong saying their MSRP is $150. In either case, TWS has preorders up for $112, meaning they're offering a better deal than the Kickstarter, or an ABSURDLY better deal. :-p

**KalashnikovMarine**

Orrrr The War Store's flat out wrong. Why in the nine circles of hell would the manufacturer offer it for an MSRP higher then what they'd do with it for standard retailers? Further more, why would Neil price it at below the standard 45% trade discount? He'd be losing money. If who ever's answering on the Kickstarter is saying TWS/Efigs (same company) has their pricing off... chances are they're right.

**Catyrpelius**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Orrrr The War Store's flat out wrong. Why in the nine circles of hell would the manufacturer offer it for an MSRP higher then what they'd do with it for standard retailers? Further more, why would Neil price it at below the standard 45% trade discount? He'd be losing money. If who ever's answering on the Kickstarter is saying TWS/Efigs (same company) has their pricing off... chances are they're right.

If you assume an MSRP of $150 (which TWS has this listed as) and a standard trade discount of 45%, it only costs TWS $82.50 to buy an army box... Even selling it at $112 their making money on the deal...

The manufactuer in this case is including additional "incentives" to justifiy their pricing, at the $150 KS level you get the army box and a free hero. At the $170 level you get the army, the free hero and the campign book.

**Alpharius**

Maybe?

Not sure how much I'd 'trust' Battleground either though.

But, even without all that, people have already shown how the starter sets being offered are not a good deal, even compared to The Miniature Market's prices on the same exact things.

More or less?

Either way, this one looks like at best a completely mediocre deal, and at worst, a really bad deal.

**Nostromodamus**

Worst run kickstarter that still makes a ton of money since Shadows of Brimstone?

**Uriels_Flame**

I'm pretty sure we can let this go as of this point we're just piling on.

Let's check back on this one nearer the end.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

The UK pre-orders have shown up on Wayland games

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/pre-orders/dust/cat_1950.html?utm_source=Wayland+Games+Ltd+List&utm_campaign=222e09a49a-Great_New_Releases_for_Magic_Dust_Hitech_and_Mercs&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78b62ac9ee-222e09a49a-312506669

only a 10% discount from RRP (free shipping for orders over £40), so the KS may make sense from a European point of view if not a US one
I'll leave it to those interested to work out whether this is the case

**warboss**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The UK pre-orders have shown up on Wayland games

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/pre-orders/dust/cat_1950.html?utm_source=Wayland+Games+Ltd+List&utm_campaign=222e09a49a-Great_New_Releases_for_Magic_Dust_Hitech_and_Mercs&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78b62ac9ee-222e09a49a-312506669

only a 10% discount from RRP (free shipping for orders over £40), so the KS may make sense from a European point of view if not a US one
I'll leave it to those interested to work out whether this is the case

It seems that maybe Battlefront preemptively made Wayland an offer they couldn't refuse... I'm curious if the warstore or MM will backtrack/refund the better deals.

**Zond**

Dust models inexplicably always cost more in the UK, so not surprised. Either way if prices get backtracked it's not a good sign either, so I'm out regardless, but they've done well so no need to wish them luck.