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 Jimsolo wrote:
I mean, there's no way that someone didn't crunch the math on this...

surely you can only use one conjuration a turn? Or have one summoned unit of demons on the board at a time?

Something?

...


Anything?

...

please?

nope just take as many libbys as you want (unbound army) and a couple of tac squads and then summon ALL THE DAEMONS from the warp. MILLIONS OF DAEMONS HITTING THE TABLE EVERY TURN AND NO ONE CAN STOP THEM MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA (cept me and my GK's we'll clean em up) but yeah i agree it has to be something like that. I think the only one summoned unit per army at a time would make the most sense.

Looking at the Divination power Foreboding, it seems to dispel rumours that overwatch is fired at -2BS and is still fired at BS1.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Looking at the Divination power Foreboding, it seems to dispel rumours that overwatch is fired at -2BS and is still fired at BS1.

I thought that too, although they might have just established a difference between Snap Shots and Overwatch. In which case, the rumor could still hold water. (Not that I was ever holding my breath on that one.)

I really like these new powers...

What do guys think about my unbound 1.5k eldar Army?
Farseer x 15

1500 PTs

150 plague bearers a turn... And maybe 15 greater demons? Every turn for the duration of the game....

 Ninjacommando wrote:
I really like these new powers...

What do guys think about my unbound 1.5k eldar Army?
Farseer x 15

1500 PTs

150 plague bearers a turn... And maybe 15 greater demons? Every turn for the duration of the game....

yeah i think there will most certainly be a limit to the number you can summon and not all of those would successed but yeah i get the idea.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
I really like these new powers...

What do guys think about my unbound 1.5k eldar Army?
Farseer x 15

1500 PTs

150 plague bearers a turn... And maybe 15 greater demons? Every turn for the duration of the game....

You'd think that Perils would wittle you down pretty quick though right? Three successes reliably is six dice, the chances of doubles, not to mention the drain on your psychic dice pool to throw six for each casting will cut that number down even quicker. Also, I believe, your greater daemons will cost you a farseer each. Possession also shows no sign of giving any upgrades to the greater daemon you summon (it does for Sacrifice, which gives Heralds) so you'll be turning a Farseer into a lvl 1 psyker at best. Further beating up on your psychic dice pool.

These are just the things you can do to yourself. Naked farseers aren't that hard to kill, especially if they save all the eldar brain juice they have to summon daemons.

I say go for it. Probably not as cool as you think it'll be though.

 Gridge wrote:
So I guess this is the f***k the fluff edition of 40K. Space Marines being able to summon daemons is just wrong, not to mention the new unbound stuff. If I hadn't already reserved my copy I would be reconsidering buying this one. The reason I play WFB and 40K is because I love the setting and the fluff. Sure it has changed here and there over the years but this is just too monumental a shift to the very core of the setting. Many will love the free for all army options but the background is important to me in any game I play and I am very disappointed in what I've read so far...hopefully things get changed somewhat, or I'll just stick to playing older editions.

Exorcists summon Daemons every time they make a new Space Marine. Aside from that, nothing says YOU have to join in the Malefic hysteria (even though all the cool kids are doing it...) but it does allow players to play things you really have never been able to see. Like Space Marine chapters that are JUST starting to turn towards Chaos. Just bring an Inquisitor with a Daemon weapon in PA as your Chapter Master and let your SM libby's run Malefic and you can get pretty close to Excommunication real quick.

Unbound can do some nice things, 8th Co assault armies and such. But no rule written can keep players from being TFG. Stop worrying what TFG will do with the new edition and start looking for players who aren't TFG.

Yeah, but Sacrifice is a different story. A thousand sons army could transform a whole unit of cultists into Heralds in a single turn with a pretty reasonable chance of success.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, but Sacrifice is a different story. A thousand sons army could transform a whole unit of cultists into Heralds in a single turn with a pretty reasonable chance of success.

With a whole lot of luck rolling for powers. But hey, yay for the Cultists!

What do you mean by luck . They just have to play unbound and spam as many horrors and tzeench heralds as they can. They already get the powers they want for their screaer star , now they will just take the same dudes with demonic powers and more horrors and the obligatory kairos.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I mean, there's no way that someone didn't crunch the math on this...

surely you can only use one conjuration a turn? Or have one summoned unit of demons on the board at a time?

Something?

...


Anything?

...

please?

GW wants to sell you it's Daemon models.

Which will almost certainly see a price hike.

Because GW cares.

About your wallet.

 Thud wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs is just FW being FW.

Most of the FW stuff for 40k isn't especially powerful. Renegade militia is even a strong contender for the worst army in the game. In any case; FW saved the Chaos Dwarves from being squatted.

FW is kinda weird with their 40k stuff. About 10% is laughably bad, 20% rather bad, 60% fairly balanced, and 10% monstrously good.




@Kingleir: CSM does not get Divination handed out willy-nilly. Units are still restricted to disciplines as detailed in their unit entries. New rules book, p. 28.

and im expecting some pretty errata and FAQing of the unit entries, seeing as they just made Ahriman even worse (his staff is totally pointless now), when Tzeentch libbys SHOULD have had Divination, more so Ahriman himself.

Makumba wrote:
What do you mean by luck . They just have to play unbound and spam as many horrors and tzeench heralds as they can. They already get the powers they want for their screaer star , now they will just take the same dudes with demonic powers and more horrors and the obligatory kairos.

I was talking about an army of 1KSons all getting the Sacrifice power and thus being able to turn a unit of Cultists into Heralds in one turn. Before that, an unbound army of 15 Farseers attempting to summon Daemons till the cows come home. You're talking about playing TzDaemons, which having NOT done the math would seem not to be able to keep up the continual spawning of daemons for very long even without super perils for playing with Malefic. Horrors to Heralds with Sacrifice is nice, but it's not like EVERY unit is going to get Sacrifice as a power, and to spam it, the units can't group up.

The Primaris is WC 3, so any dipping into that will seriously kill their WC dice pool. Personally I'd rather have the TzHeralds sitting all by their onesies trying to summon stuff rather than buffing up a unit of Screamers they are all attached too. If Markymark is telling the truth about a unit including Psykers (any amount of them) not being able to attempt to cast the same psychic power twice in a round they'll have to split up to create the opportunity to summon a horde of daemons. Making them easier to wipe out IMO. Not to mention taxing the Grimoire's abilities, using up WC dice and removing most of the threat of forewarning. If they're rolling Malefic they aren't focusing on Divination, which moves away from 2++ re-rollable.

Don't see it happening all that much, or being all that effective.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Makumba wrote:
What do you mean by luck . They just have to play unbound and spam as many horrors and tzeench heralds as they can. They already get the powers they want for their screaer star , now they will just take the same dudes with demonic powers and more horrors and the obligatory kairos.

I was talking about an army of 1KSons all getting the Sacrifice power and thus being able to turn a unit of Cultists into Heralds in one turn. Before that, an unbound army of 15 Farseers attempting to summon Daemons till the cows come home. You're talking about playing TzDaemons, which having NOT done the math would seem not to be able to keep up the continual spawning of daemons for very long even without super perils for playing with Malefic. Horrors to Heralds with Sacrifice is nice, but it's not like EVERY unit is going to get Sacrifice as a power, and to spam it, the units can't group up.

The Primaris is WC 3, so any dipping into that will seriously kill their WC dice pool. Personally I'd rather have the TzHeralds sitting all by their onesies trying to summon stuff rather than buffing up a unit of Screamers they are all attached too. If Markymark is telling the truth about a unit including Psykers (any amount of them) not being able to attempt to cast the same psychic power twice in a round they'll have to split up to create the opportunity to summon a horde of daemons. Making them easier to wipe out IMO. Not to mention taxing the Grimoire's abilities, using up WC dice and removing most of the threat of forewarning. If they're rolling Malefic they aren't focusing on Divination, which moves away from 2++ re-rollable.

Don't see it happening all that much, or being all that effective.

apparently 1ksons wont get the roll, because we STILL have to take that 1 power as a POS Tzeentch book one, though the way around and its a little more pricy might be

2 sorc + 2 units cultist, 220 pts - and you can roll whatever tables you like, or 2 sorc per 2 cultists as in BF lists you can take as many detachments as you like.. so at 70 pts base more than a unit of 1ksons you can take as many libbys as you want AND have a boatload of culitsts ( 25 pts and you can take prescience on top maybe ((if the rulebook opens that door as per the referance card)) )

ps. glad i have 6 librarians and 60 cultists har har.... wowsers

Are those lvl 2 psykers? So 12+d6 WC's? You'll get Sacrifice a couple of times, do Chaos Marines get freebie Perils in Malefic or is it just Daemons? Have fun either way, would be a cool army to play against.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Are those lvl 2 psykers? So 12+d6 WC's? You'll get Sacrifice a couple of times, do Chaos Marines get freebie Perils in Malefic or is it just Daemons? Have fun either way, would be a cool army to play against.

well price wise for the cost of 2 base 1ksons units, you can have 20 cultists and 2 ML 3 libbys. add onns add to the cost,
so +4 ML overall, can roll on whatever tables you want (not marked tz for a reason)
cutlists not as cool as 1ksons BUT well 4 marines that cant OW or run or anything, and damn expensive if you sac them. so better to give each ML 3 libby 10 guys to absorb wounds.

so for 300ish points you get 6 +D6 dice and 20 ablative wounds. can shave points to drop ML etc but it gives plenty of rolls on those tables and if you decide to you can turn that 110 pt libby into a Greater Daemon lol.. (if you roll the power etc etc)
which is much more cost effective use of dice that 1ksons sadly still stuck with a bad rule :( hopefully ahriman gets some FAQ/Errata love

if i were to try take all 6 libbys id be looking at around 900 pts of my army, id more likely go ML 2 for that, cheapen them up and mabye only take 2 units of it.

nvm

 Kain wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs is just FW being FW.

Most of the FW stuff for 40k isn't especially powerful. Renegade militia is even a strong contender for the worst army in the game. In any case; FW saved the Chaos Dwarves from being squatted.

Oh, I don't disagree. Most of the FW stuff is underpowered actually or rather slightly overcosted. On the other hand, some stuff is just ridiculously OP.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs is just FW being FW.

Most of the FW stuff for 40k isn't especially powerful. Renegade militia is even a strong contender for the worst army in the game. In any case; FW saved the Chaos Dwarves from being squatted.

Oh, I don't disagree. Most of the FW stuff is underpowered actually or rather slightly overcosted. On the other hand, some stuff is just ridiculously OP.

Still, they seem to care far more for balance and actual fun (and have a far better sense of scale in their fluff) than GW has lately.

Wait so, Sanctic spells means everyone has access to what makes Grey Knights unique?

I mean sure, we're still "elite," but it certainly makes them less unique and more just "more expensive, heavier gear"-space marines.

 Purifier wrote:
Wait so, Sanctic spells means everyone has access to what makes Grey Knights unique?

I mean sure, we're still "elite," but it certainly makes them less unique and more just "more expensive, heavier gear"-space marines.

Also grey knights don't get Biomancy because reasons.

Hence why I prefer to give everyone access to every BRB table and more codex power options, at least multiple tables per codex.

As for no-psyker armies, of course we spent time to balance that out with better and more widely available psychic defense.

Ultimately I see this chart as being very generous to some factions (Space marines and Guard) while giving the finger to others (Orks, Tyranids.)

 Purifier wrote:
Wait so, Sanctic spells means everyone has access to what makes Grey Knights unique?

I mean sure, we're still "elite," but it certainly makes them less unique and more just "more expensive, heavier gear"-space marines.

Yes, but people trying to manifest those spells will Perils on ANY double they roll while the Grey Knights will only Peril with double 6s. The same goes for Malefic and Daemons which is why I don't know why people are in object terror that everyone is going to be summoning daemons.

We also don't know the consequences of summoning those quite yet but the Armies that people are griping about summoning Daemons are also "Come the Apocalypse" on the allies chart so there is that factor and then the chance of Periling all the time from using the powers, I think people are freaking out prematurely about this. We only have fractions of rules right now and only a partial knowledge of all these are going to interact. I don't know about you but I am not about to use a power to summon a force that practically hates me to the battlefield to "help" me. Are there going to be "for the lols" games that will abuse these powers? Yeah, probably but as an actual tactical decision to win a game in a tournament I am going to say it is extremely unlikely. Even though a lot of the armies have access to Malefic and Sanctic Daemonology, the only two armies who will use them with any amount of regularity and consistently are GK for Sanctic and Daemons for Malefic. Generating the Warp Charges, rolling for Perils and then your opponent having an easier time stopping that power, the risk to benefit here means that it is better for those armies not to use Daemonology at all.

It is not against fluff but to mean represents the allure and seduction of Chaos which is highly prevalent in a lot of the books and fluff. Librarians and Farseers who are arrogant and think they can use the forbidden powers. Others who are whispered from the beyond into service for Chaos. There are plenty examples of forces falling to the temptation of using the power of the Chaos Gods. Only one army has ever resisted this completely and they are the force that can't use it, the Grey Knights. I think this is the attempt of GW to simulate that in the table top, not saying that it was a good decision but that is their intention. Whether it has a place in a table top war game or if that is better left to table top RPGs, is up for debate but it has been clear that GW has been trying to turn this more into a table war gaming RPG, something they have even stated themselves as well as make money off of models.

I haven't gone into the math on the demon summoning list... HOWEVER in general, psykers are WORSE in this edition than they were in last edition.

Anything warp charge 2 or higher will be incredibly costly to cast when compared to how things were in 6th edition.

Even warp charge 1 spells are harder to cast relative to 6th. Three ML 1 psykers won't be able to consistently cast three Warp Charge 1 spells like they did in 6th, unless your army generates more warp charges in addition to what those three psykers provide.

Super Newb wrote:
I haven't gone into the math on the demon summoning list... HOWEVER in general, psykers are WORSE in this edition than they were in last edition.

Anything warp charge 2 or higher will be incredibly costly to cast when compared to how things were in 6th edition.

Even warp charge 1 spells are harder to cast relative to 6th. Three ML 1 psykers won't be able to consistently cast three Warp Charge 1 spells like they did in 6th, unless your army generates more warp charges in addition to what those three psykers provide.

Honestly, I think this is what they were going for. It is quite similar to the way Fantasy does magic and they want psychic abilities to be a tactical decision, not something to even be used with such regularity as it was in 6th. The domination of the Farseer Council is part of the reason they did this. They don't want a ton of psychic abilities that mean you win because you have them but manifest them at the right time to make an impact on the course of the game.

So why does everyone think Chaos gets access to Divination now, if Codex trumps Rulebook? They would still have to errata the entry in the codex for Sorcerers, and also invalidate the only reason people bought the Crimson Slaughter book....

I see that its not checked off the little cards, but that isn't proof enough for me to be convinced... They could be referencing the Crimson Slaughter relic right there.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So why does everyone think Chaos gets access to Divination now, if Codex trumps Rulebook? They would still have to errata the entry in the codex for Sorcerers, and also invalidate the only reason people bought the Crimson Slaughter book....

I see that its not checked off the little cards, but that isn't proof enough for me to be convinced... They could be referencing the Crimson Slaughter relic right there.

nah I asked someone with the book in another thread. The powers are true to the codex until an FAQ if we are lucky.

Oh and nice job Robin Cruddace, calls it Battle Focus in the WD. Psychic Focus makes alot more sense, and isn't a name already taken.

So here's my broken combo. Two Farseers and Urien Rakarth (joined to a unit of Grots) sit back behind the lines. The Farseers use Sacrifice on Urien and his unit, where they can shuffle the wounds around, FNP them, and auto-heal them, getting Heralds all day long for next to nothing.

Awesome...

 Jimsolo wrote:
So here's my broken combo. Two Farseers and Urien Rakarth (joined to a unit of Grots) sit back behind the lines. The Farseers use Sacrifice on Urien and his unit, where they can shuffle the wounds around, FNP them, and auto-heal them, getting Heralds all day long for next to nothing.

Awesome...

Can't you just feel the narrative being forged?

 Jimsolo wrote:
So here's my broken combo. Two Farseers and Urien Rakarth (joined to a unit of Grots) sit back behind the lines. The Farseers use Sacrifice on Urien and his unit, where they can shuffle the wounds around, FNP them, and auto-heal them, getting Heralds all day long for next to nothing.

Awesome...

and how are you FNP that? no saves of any kind allowed. FNP is a type of save no?