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Why?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why?

Because GW loves your wallet.

I'd still probably say that the LoC is the best Greater Daemon with the current rules. The nerf it took by not being able to change flight mode and then charge hurt. However they are still maneuverable. The GUO cannot pick its fights, and can be avoided or fed tarpits to keep it busy.

With that said, I'd say the GUO is probably number 2. a possible str and T of 10 is nothing to laugh at.
KoS would be next. No puppet master now. No wings. Faster than the GUO, but much less durable.

Last is of course the bloodthirster. An absolute failure of a creation. A melee dedicated unit which cannot use his wings and charge in the same turn, has no utility, provides no psychic dice and can now be tied up quite well with a dreadnought.

I think honestly slaanesh DPs are going to be king now. Lash of despair is awesome since it is not psychic. Plus you can roll for iron arm for sweet S9 lash goodness.

 herpguy wrote:
I think honestly slaanesh DPs are going to be king now. Lash of despair is awesome since it is not psychic. Plus you can roll for iron arm for sweet S9 lash goodness.

Edit: Check that, you said DP, and not GD.

I'm not sure over Lash DP's. Now the opposition can attempt to deny iron arm, which would reduce their damage output.

Nothing has changed, unless GW puts out FAQs to change what disciplines the KoS can take.

I like the new Smash, bigger trade off than before:

5 base attacks? Cut and half and round up, then add one for charging, so now you have 4 attacks.

Smash makes more sense as one giant, time consuming, attack. I always imagine the Hulk with interlaced fingers going from over his head something right in front of him.

Maybe hit on a 2+ as well? Oh well, there's always 8th ed.

Yet another $80 rule book, my wallet hemorrhages green each time I walk into my LGS.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Giant nerfs to FMC[...]

They didn't get nerfed, they got repurposed, my slaanesh dakka princes are now as happy as can be since they're alot harder to ground now and can do AA even better with AP2 Vector Strikes against fliers for the better damage roll. I will gladly give up CC threat for better protection vs armies not prepared for FMCs

(Sorry I was late to the party just thought I had to point it out.)

I'm not sure over Lash DP's. Now the opposition can attempt to deny iron arm, which would reduce their damage output.

How so? "To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power."

I don't think Flying Circus lists are going to be as good anymore but FMCs are definitely here to stay. 2 soul grinders are vastly superior to 1 FMC now.

GUO will never be the new anything until they make his fat ass move more than 6 inches a turn.

I personally dont belive FMC lists got nerfed at all, the play style changes slightly more towards how you should have been playing FMC anyway. More shooting from the air, harder to get knocked down/killed. how is that a nerf??

 A GumyBear wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Giant nerfs to FMC[...]

They didn't get nerfed, they got repurposed, my slaanesh dakka princes are now as happy as can be since they're alot harder to ground now and can do AA even better with AP2 Vector Strikes against fliers for the better damage roll. I will gladly give up CC threat for better protection vs armies not prepared for FMCs

(Sorry I was late to the party just thought I had to point it out.)

FMCs have been nerfed I'm afraid. There is no other way to put it.

You are right they are slightly harder to ground now, that's the only advantage they received really. When playing a Daemon flying circus most people already had fateweaver to help keep the birds in the air.
AP2 vector strikes isn't much of a buff considering that their strength is pretty low, and also that the vehicle damage table got 16% more resilient, so you will just be doing the same damage as before.

FMCs lost the ability to contest/score after swooping and can't charge after swooping. These are game changing difference, and the real reason why the GUO is potentially in the same league as the LoC now.

7th ed will also hurt the flying circus due to the phychic changes. On average the army will be able to successfully cast less psychic powers per turn, and the ones it does cast have more chance of being denied now. (Plus there is that chance that the opponent can deny powers like iron arm and invsibility).

 A GumyBear wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Giant nerfs to FMC[...]

They didn't get nerfed, they got repurposed, my slaanesh dakka princes are now as happy as can be since they're alot harder to ground now and can do AA even better with AP2 Vector Strikes against fliers for the better damage roll. I will gladly give up CC threat for better protection vs armies not prepared for FMCs

(Sorry I was late to the party just thought I had to point it out.)

Why do people keep saying this? An ap2 attack in 7th is the same as an ap3 or higher in 6th! The only change is now they get 1d3 vs things flying and one, one, against ground targets.

The only way someone could possibly consider this a buff is if they have only ever played against terminators, riptides, broadsides and dread knights (etc).

They will stay alive longer though due to grounding.

You best tactic with a melee version is to get close-is and hope to be grounded to charge on your turn.

One other thing is that a FMC can jink regardless of flight mode now.

FMC list was, and never will be a "melee" list... if thats how you were playing it, you were doing it wrong. The best FMC lists already barely ever went to ground, and usually it was because we got shot there. The change to grounding is not a slight buff, it is a fething massive buff.

The nerf to vector strike is fairly negligible, and how often did you actually use smash anyway. Tzeench is already str 8, so smash was never really a buff anyway.

People get all cry-ie after new editions come out, think the world is falling, get a grip and think things out for a minute before you post your gibberish for other people who dont think for themselves to absorb like the sponges they are.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
FMC list was, and never will be a "melee" list... if thats how you were playing it, you were doing it wrong. The best FMC lists already barely ever went to ground, and usually it was because we got shot there. The change to grounding is not a slight buff, it is a fething massive buff.

The nerf to vector strike is fairly negligible, and how often did you actually use smash anyway. Tzeench is already str 8, so smash was never really a buff anyway.

People get all cry-ie after new editions come out, think the world is falling, get a grip and think things out for a minute before you post your gibberish for other people who dont think for themselves to absorb like the sponges they are.

The one specific daemon list, yeah, they don't need to go to ground that often. All others are pure melee or a mix of shooting and melee.
I'd suggest you do what you are preaching and think things out.

GrafWattenburg wrote:

I'm not sure over Lash DP's. Now the opposition can attempt to deny iron arm, which would reduce their damage output.

How so? "To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power."

Read the rest of that section.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
FMC list was, and never will be a "melee" list... if thats how you were playing it, you were doing it wrong. The best FMC lists already barely ever went to ground, and usually it was because we got shot there. The change to grounding is not a slight buff, it is a fething massive buff.

The nerf to vector strike is fairly negligible, and how often did you actually use smash anyway. Tzeench is already str 8, so smash was never really a buff anyway.

People get all cry-ie after new editions come out, think the world is falling, get a grip and think things out for a minute before you post your gibberish for other people who dont think for themselves to absorb like the sponges they are.

The one specific daemon list, yeah, they don't need to go to ground that often. All others are pure melee or a mix of shooting and melee.
I'd suggest you do what you are preaching and think things out.

FMC IS Daemons list, it has and always will be. It has never been melee orientated. Do people try to take all flying melee MC's, yes. Is it or has it ever been a good idea? No.

If you are trying to insinuate that Tyranids are "FMC" I would disagree and say tyranids are "flyrant" lists, they never had the ability until just recently to take that, and I personally do NOT include them when talking "FMC"

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
FMC list was, and never will be a "melee" list... if thats how you were playing it, you were doing it wrong.

You are missing the point here. FMC lists are not standard melee lists, sure. However they were extremely versatile, and sometimes charging a unit or vehicle with your LoC would be the best way to remove it. To say that losing this ability is an issue of little importance is just plain wrong. As is openly stating that FMC lists have been buffed. They gained a little in terms of survivability, but lost a lot of offensive capabilities and scoring capability.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
FMC list was, and never will be a "melee" list... if thats how you were playing it, you were doing it wrong. The best FMC lists already barely ever went to ground, and usually it was because we got shot there. The change to grounding is not a slight buff, it is a fething massive buff.

The nerf to vector strike is fairly negligible, and how often did you actually use smash anyway. Tzeench is already str 8, so smash was never really a buff anyway.

People get all cry-ie after new editions come out, think the world is falling, get a grip and think things out for a minute before you post your gibberish for other people who dont think for themselves to absorb like the sponges they are.

The one specific daemon list, yeah, they don't need to go to ground that often. All others are pure melee or a mix of shooting and melee.
I'd suggest you do what you are preaching and think things out.

FMC IS Daemons list, it has and always will be. It has never been melee orientated. Do people try to take all flying melee MC's, yes. Is it or has it ever been a good idea? No.

If you are trying to insinuate that Tyranids are "FMC" I would disagree and say tyranids are "flyrant" lists, they never had the ability until just recently to take that, and I personally do NOT include them when talking "FMC"

Are you for real? That would be like saying "marines this, marines that" and get confused when someone thinks you are talking about space marine.

Tyranids have three flying monsterous creatures (otherwise know to everyone else as FMC) so yes I consider tyranids having FMCS.

FMC stands for flying monstrous creature.

Daemons have them, Nids have them, CSM have them, Orks would have them if they could...

Flying Circus is daemons specific. As is Skyblight for Nids. Flyrant is shorthand for Flying Tyrant.

FMC is just shorthand for a flying monstrous creature from any codex that can get one.

Your personal interpretation may, of course, vary

 Kain wrote:

 Hansisaf wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Giant nerfs to FMC[...]

Did I miss something?

If you go from swoop to glide you stand there picking your nose for a turn, you only get one AP2 vector strike hit against ground targets, and smash reduces your attack profile to one instead of halving it.

What does the rule say if a swooping FMC is grounded.
Can it then charge in the next round? If so, I wouldn't shoot a swooping FMC until he's gliding.

Do I also need to remind, FMCs are now scoring units. not just contesting. That is huge since one of our largest weaknesses was lack of troops.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Do I also need to remind, FMCs are now scoring units. not just contesting. That is huge since one of our largest weaknesses was lack of troops.

But they can't get to the objectives and contest them as fast as they could before, and have to expose themselves to a turn of shooting if they want to do it.

Swings and roundabouts.

The flying circus certainly didn't get an overall buff. However, it has received so many changes in so many places, both for good and bad, that only time will tell if it will be still able to compete at the highest levels of play.
I suspect that it won't as it has lost a lot of its versatility. However the Daemon codex has proved so many people wrong over the past year (remember when it came out and everyone said it was weak and underpowered?) that I wouldn't be surprised if someone could find a way to make it work.

lets just say i have my ideas.