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 TheSilo wrote:

 paqman wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
single models that cost 250+ points should not die from a single round of firing from even an equivilent point cost unit.

Exactly. That was my intended reponse. My landraiders and dreadnought were basically shelved. They are now comming back since I know I will at least be able to do something with them on turn and possibly two as well.
Instant kiling a 40pts rhino, I have no problem with that. Its expected and their role is to live one round and then serve as cover. But a LR should be there for a majority of the battle unless your opponent goes out of his way to remove it with concentrated firepower.

Frankly, I just ignore land raiders most of the time. Just like I ignore most flyers. They're hard to kill units, but their fire power usually isn't enough to make them worth killing. It'd have to kill four guard squads in a game, or a Russ and a chimera, to earn back it's points. And most people will have terminators inside the land raider which makes no sense to me (just like marines inside marines for centurions). You concentrate your points to the point of absurdity, putting 2+ save guys inside a 14/14/14 vehicle is crazy.

Whilst true, it is the only way to make terminators remotely useful. When playing DW, I use landraiders work as a moving wall, attempting to shield the terminators from anti infantry fire.
I'm quite looking forward to the changes in this regard, as it means my DW army just got that slight bit better.

 Exergy wrote:
5 wyches with haywire grenades

Exactly. Haywire would destroy most things in 7th pretty quick unless the rules change. Necron Stormteks too...

After the nerf to Braodside HRR, Crisis became the to-go AT for Tau.
Longstrike in a Railhead is still an option, but still 5+ to penetrate a LR, now requiring a 5+ to outright explode it... better use the Firebase Formation with Rippy Ionzippy and his 6 Broadside HRRs groupies to glance it with Tank Hunters.

Kyutaru wrote:Maybe GW just got tired of making their models out of explodium. We actually have to battle tanks now.

have an exalt, good sir!

Armorbane and glancing four HP is still just as viable as before.

 Vector Strike wrote:
After the nerf to Braodside HRR, Crisis became the to-go AT for Tau.
Longstrike in a Railhead is still an option, but still 5+ to penetrate a LR, now requiring a 5+ to outright explode it... better use the Firebase Formation with Rippy Ionzippy and his 6 Broadside HRRs groupies to glance it with Tank Hunters.

Kyutaru wrote:Maybe GW just got tired of making their models out of explodium. We actually have to battle tanks now.

have an exalt, good sir!

You shouldn't be shooting LRs with hammerheads in any case. Aim for weak stuff like rinos and vindactors (that's the SM battle tank right?) to distract your opponent and get the most out of the tank.

Mavnas wrote:
Pask in a punisher with LC and melta sponsons.

sure 2/3s of 20 shots hit 1/6 of those rend, 1/3 of those glance; so most basic math-hammer: .740740 glances, then .22222 glances from the meltas over 12" of range, .1111 glances from MM within 12" or .407407 explodes from the MM within 12". Then you have a grand total of .1111 glances with the lascannon, or .037037 explodes

honestly melta vets jumping out of a chimera do a better job cheaper with .166666 glances within 6" or .61111 explodes(you would not disembark therm outside of 6")

LCs will have bigger problems to kill a vehicle. It will not be impossible, I am not saying that, but it is sure it will be a lot harder than now.

Glancing vehicles with LCs is not efficient way to kill them, because LCs are not exactly cheap.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Pask in a punisher with LC and melta sponsons.

sure 2/3s of 20 shots hit 1/6 of those rend, 1/3 of those glance; so most basic math-hammer: .740740 glances, then .22222 glances from the meltas over 12" of range, .1111 glances from MM within 12" or .407407 explodes from the MM within 12". Then you have a grand total of .1111 glances with the lascannon, or .037037 explodes

honestly melta vets jumping out of a chimera do a better job cheaper with .166666 glances within 6" or .61111 explodes(you would not disembark therm outside of 6")

He rerolls armor pen... And rolls of 1 to hit.

 Lothar wrote:
LCs will have bigger problems to kill a vehicle. It will not be impossible, I am not saying that, but it is sure it will be a lot harder than now.

Glancing vehicles with LCs is not efficient way to kill them, because LCs are not exactly cheap.

It's really a null issue.
In 6th edition you needed 27 LC shots to get an average of one destroyed result.
You only needed 18 shots to strip four hull points.

(All assuming BS4)

 minigun762 wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
LCs will have bigger problems to kill a vehicle. It will not be impossible, I am not saying that, but it is sure it will be a lot harder than now.

Glancing vehicles with LCs is not efficient way to kill them, because LCs are not exactly cheap.

It's really a null issue.
In 6th edition you needed 27 LC shots to get an average of one destroyed result.
You only needed 18 shots to strip four hull points.

(All assuming BS4)

Since i play guard i dont assume BS 4

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
After the nerf to Braodside HRR, Crisis became the to-go AT for Tau.
Longstrike in a Railhead is still an option, but still 5+ to penetrate a LR, now requiring a 5+ to outright explode it... better use the Firebase Formation with Rippy Ionzippy and his 6 Broadside HRRs groupies to glance it with Tank Hunters.

Kyutaru wrote:Maybe GW just got tired of making their models out of explodium. We actually have to battle tanks now.

have an exalt, good sir!

You shouldn't be shooting LRs with hammerheads in any case. Aim for weak stuff like rinos and vindactors (that's the SM battle tank right?) to distract your opponent and get the most out of the tank.

Thanks for the insight - Yeah, it's a wiser use for it.
Vindicator is the one with 24" S10 AP2 plate; Predator is the SM battle tank. Both have 13/11/10, though.

Also for expensive things like a land raider you dont need to kill it. You either just need to slow it down or put it in a position where he cant use it effectively.

Or hell just ignore it. It doesnt really do that much damage anyway.

 Leth wrote:
Also for expensive things like a land raider you dont need to kill it. You either just need to slow it down or put it in a position where he cant use it effectively.

Or hell just ignore it. It doesnt really do that much damage anyway.

Depends on what kind of Land raider is used.

A spartan assault tank most certainly can cause an enemy grief even before it vomits out a full squad of terminators in someone's face. And Ceramite shielding can quickly negate the issue of Meltas.

Monoliths can also be used for some exceedingly nasty tricks and generally speaking, a trio of them dropping down via Zandrekh along with a full half of a necron army is very much a big problem.

The new rules make them even harder to get rid off without HP stripping.

Mavnas wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Pask in a punisher with LC and melta sponsons.

sure 2/3s of 20 shots hit 1/6 of those rend, 1/3 of those glance; so most basic math-hammer: .740740 glances, then .22222 glances from the meltas over 12" of range, .1111 glances from MM within 12" or .407407 explodes from the MM within 12". Then you have a grand total of .1111 glances with the lascannon, or .037037 explodes

honestly melta vets jumping out of a chimera do a better job cheaper with .166666 glances within 6" or .61111 explodes(you would not disembark therm outside of 6")

He rerolls armor pen... And rolls of 1 to hit.

ok, 1.433471 glances from the gatling cannon, .248457 glances from the MM at under 12", or .462892 explodes. and the lascannon gets .147634 glances and .052812 explodes

3 melta vets are still better and cheaper.

I expect Be'Lakor to pop them quite easily with his 5-6 s7(iirc?) master-crafted armourbane attacks. Failing that, I'll just ignore it.

Be'Lakor has armorbane?

Space marine grav weapons should make short work of it. Immobilized is good enough for government work, and a 2nd result will strip 2hp.

SM/IG can make real quick work of one. Split off and priest to join the bikes and use orders to give the priest tank hunters, which as a usr transfers to the rest of the squad. Now the bikes hit like dev cents.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Be'Lakor has armorbane?

Space marine grav weapons should make short work of it. Immobilized is good enough for government work, and a 2nd result will strip 2hp.

SM/IG can make real quick work of one. Split off and priest to join the bikes and use orders to give the priest tank hunters, which as a usr transfers to the rest of the squad. Now the bikes hit like dev cents.

Orders go to space army units, an IC joined to SM bikes is no longer a space army unit, he is part of a SM unit.

And yes, the blade of shadows has Armour(and flesh)bane

 schadenfreude wrote:
Be'Lakor has armorbane?

Space marine grav weapons should make short work of it. Immobilized is good enough for government work, and a 2nd result will strip 2hp.

SM/IG can make real quick work of one. Split off and priest to join the bikes and use orders to give the priest tank hunters, which as a usr transfers to the rest of the squad. Now the bikes hit like dev cents.

Be'Lakor's sword is Armorbane, Fleshbane, +1 strength, and master crafted.

I keep hearing melta. Um aren't there quite a few Imperial armies with access to ceramite armor? Don't regular SMs and GK get that? I never leave home without it on my Heresy vehicles, and with the new rules, it will not be an item I cut to make my points limit.

Col. Dash wrote:
I keep hearing melta. Um aren't there quite a few Imperial armies with access to ceramite armor? Don't regular SMs and GK get that? I never leave home without it on my Heresy vehicles, and with the new rules, it will not be an item I cut to make my points limit.

CSMs have it on the Spartan Assault Tank. Really cuts down on being hit by anything during games, people like meltas a lot more than lascannons.

The only things with ceramite armor are Stormravens and Stormtalons. Oh, and a few Forgeworld Land Raider variants.

Do we know what's replacing the natural '6' on the penetrating table? If it's something like 2 HP then these concerns might be overblown.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
The only things with ceramite armor are Stormravens and Stormtalons. Oh, and a few Forgeworld Land Raider variants.

It's really only a concern If they're spamming expensive super Land Raiders.
In which case a demolisher cannon has nearly the same effect as a melta gun with 4x the effective range.

 TheSilo wrote:
Do we know what's replacing the natural '6' on the penetrating table? If it's something like 2 HP then these concerns might be overblown.

Immobilization.

IIRC any penetrating shots remove 2 HP instead of 1.

So just two meltas, even if they dont blow up the thing is enough to down one.

 Desubot wrote:
IIRC any penetrating shots remove 2 HP instead of 1.

So just two meltas, even if they dont blow up the thing is enough to down one.

Yikes, that'd be the end of walkers.

 Desubot wrote:
IIRC any penetrating shots remove 2 HP instead of 1.

Nope. Not at all. A pen is worth 2 "damage" as far as combat results go though.

Gauss and Sentry Pylons.

Kyutaru wrote:
Maybe GW just got tired of making their models out of explodium. We actually have to battle tanks now.

But Explodium was such a cost efficient building material.

Imagine how expensive Land Raiders are going to get.....

Oh thats what that meant? ok. il double check and rethink some strats.