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Made in us
Been Around the Block




This thread is just wonderful.

4th ed was the best IMO. Tactics were at the core of every win. Its just great to see so many fans finally fed up with the garbage GW is trying to shove down our throats.

5th ed was when Jervis Jhonson took over 40k as lead rules developer. Since 5th 40k has slowly lost popularity and GW has steadily lost market share. The quality of the rules have gradually declined. Jervis Jhonson is the problem. You read his idiotic stuff about how its more important to "forge a narrative" than follow the rules. Here is a fething clue for you Jervis, if you want to play a casual "narrative" game you can do that with a competent rule set. It seems to me that Jervis is the most incompetent rules dev in the history of the profession. Fire that ass clown already. Mind boggling he has a job as a rules designer when he clearly hates rules.
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

If I wasn't looking forward to trying out 7th, I'd hardly go back to 3rd. I quit when 3rd was around, and didn't come back til 6th...
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

As you seem to be part of a friendly group willing to try things and bend the rules (rather than playing mostly pickups with total strangers), your problems with 7th aren't huge.

The main problem with 6th is the meta, the opportunities for heinously overpowered crap that made the game not fun. This arises primarily in games with strangers, either pickup or tourney, because a group can say "No triple Heldrake", for example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating you play anything you don't enjoy, I'm just suggesting that you can avoid most of the issues with 6th/7th simply by being a group and not randoms. The best solution would probably be to play a couple of trial games of different editions and see how you like it, but I'd recommend making a houseruled 7th simply so current things can be used if people want. This isn't to say that 7th is good - which is why I suggest houserules and the like. Play around with things and see what is fun. People say that, for example, 4th edition was fun and tactical - I know nothing about anything prior to 5th, but it would be really cool if you could come up with a way to find the things that made Xth edition good and then apply it to 7th. Experiment and come up with something cool!

While any decent person would buy 7th edition four times over, there are other ways to get the rules without using money. That would be a most terrible crime, though, and I would never advocate it ever, and this is definitely not sarcasm.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

dresnar1 wrote:
This thread is just wonderful.

4th ed was the best IMO. Tactics were at the core of every win.

Ah yes, the siren song of an Iron Warriors player.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





I'll be playing 2ed and 3rd....Warmachine and Infinity.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Desperado Corp.

Good shout on Infinity, actually. That's something else I intend to get the group into.

Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Bookwrack wrote:
dresnar1 wrote:
This thread is just wonderful.

4th ed was the best IMO. Tactics were at the core of every win.

Ah yes, the siren song of an Iron Warriors player.

Right before getting crushed by invincible grav-falcons.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Darkseid wrote:
Started in 3rd edition and retrospectively it was probably the worst 40k had to offer. 4th was an improvement but overall not much better.

Honestly I don't see what people expect? Every edition had it's game breaking lists. If you go back to 3rd you will complain about BA rhino rush or the seeding swarm.

Don't let the internet mass hysterics get to you.


Ah, yes. I remember the look on my opponent's face when I rhino rushed his line, dropped the BA, and in one turn, had his army reduced to 18 Orks. A moment of cheesy goodness, to be savored like a fine wine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bookwrack wrote:
dresnar1 wrote:
This thread is just wonderful.

4th ed was the best IMO. Tactics were at the core of every win.

Ah yes, the siren song of an Iron Warriors player.


You had to love the fact that Pete Haines ran Iron Warriors and came up with the quote to Thousand Sons players that hated the fact their army was yet again hosed, "Any army with two wounds has a lot going for it".


The "best" quote about a direction players weren't happy the game had taken had to be "Fat Bloke", though, to the Squat players that had spent years and more than a few bucks, building their armies through 1st and 2nd, when they were asking why the Squats were discontinued. As quoted in an old White Dwarf, he answered a group at a panel by saying, "Get a life".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 20:03:02


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Bookwrack wrote:
dresnar1 wrote:
This thread is just wonderful.

4th ed was the best IMO. Tactics were at the core of every win.

Ah yes, the siren song of an Iron Warriors player.


Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Space Marines OH MY!

I lost like 1 game with my DE maybe?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 20:20:40


 
   
Made in nz
Focused Fire Warrior



New Zealand

MadmanMSU wrote:
There's a thing called "one page 40k", where the simplified the rules down to 1 page. I haven't tried it, but you might consider it.


is it "roll a d66 to decide game outcome"?

In all seriousness this intrigues me, do you know where to find it? When i started playing 3rd i was quite young and all i remember is we didnt really get morale, agreed it was boring and slowed things down. So everything was fearless. Considering how many times my chaos space marines have legged it, i kind of miss that.

6000pts
3000pts
1500pts
1000pts
 
   
Made in fi
Andy Hoare




Turku, Finland

Are you serious? Third edition? The one made for little kids and not even good at that?

It was so stupid. Roll for winner (who goes first - preferably you use one of the armies that can re-roll winner). Pick cleanse because the other scenarios are unplayable. Sure, use the trial assault rules - congratulations, now you have only 96 squads, and it's a rock paper scissors game instead of coinflip with cheating - lascannon beats rhino, rhino beats alaitoc and alaitoc beats everything that's not rhino.

Like psychic powers? How about S4 blast, that's your psychic power.

Like bikes? How about 40 points a piece?

Like characters? Almost none have more than T4, so you never buy any useless wargear because characters are themselves useless, fisted to death with no hope of achieving anything - unless you're emperor's champion.

Like Monstrous Creatures? Typically 3 wounds, invulnerable 5+ or a 4+ armor save (I have a faint idea that it was 5+ too for tyranids, can't confirm tho). Not that any of them moved or did anything anyway.

Heck, like movement? Bikes go 12, infantry 6, that's it, no running unless you have a special rule that let's you go faster.

I just don't know... Third edition? What good was there about third edition?

Or friggin fourth. I sure hope you like untargetable Daemon princes, chaos liutenants that assault on turn 1, 20 assault cannon armies or other BS like that. BS like those 8 TMC armies.

In short 40k has always had two modes, one where you agree to play reasonable games and one where you don't. Even in third, which is one of the worst tabletop games I have played.

"Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." - Lord Borak
 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

pax_imperialis wrote:

In all seriousness this intrigues me, do you know where to find it? When i started playing 3rd i was quite young and all i remember is we didnt really get morale, agreed it was boring and slowed things down. So everything was fearless. Considering how many times my chaos space marines have legged it, i kind of miss that.


I did this when I first started. I also thought invulnerable saves were taken in addition to armour/cover saves. The reason I thought this was because I could take the Mark of Tzeentch on standard Chaos Marines, giving them a 6++, and this seemed too pointless to not be what I would later discover was Feel No Pain.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

nemesis464 wrote:
Early 5th ed. was the best time by far.

Ditto. I joined as 5th came out. Even as a noob I didn't feel stomped.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Desperado Corp.

Yeah, on reflection, 5th was a nice edition.

Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yeah, on reflection, 5th was a nice edition.

Then along came the Grey Knights.

Or arguably the Space Wolves and Blood Angels or even the Imperial Guard leafblower lists.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Desperado Corp.

Still better than Forge the Narrativehammer.

Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

I'm biased towards 5th, because that was back before my best friend went off on his Mormon quest in Portugal.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

If you added hull points rules to 5th edition, you wouldn't be far off from a nicely balanced core rule set.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I'm very eager to turn 2nd edition into a game that plays like the good old days of Necromunda, but with the wider array of 40K armies. Would make for a very fun focused skirmish-level 40K game.

-Small points cap. Maybe 400-500 points.
-Remove Squad Cohesion rules
-Allow purchasing of units at the individual level, just keep squad restrictions about wargear (i.e. must purchase 5 tactical marines to take a single special weapon, 10 for a heavy weapon)
-Keep army composition percentages- (this will help keep characters in check, who can overbalance small points-costs games)
-Maybe some sort of cap on amount/type vehicles used, although the composition percentages might limit that enough, too.

Obviously it would take a lot of cooperation between opponents to keep the game fun, but could make for some very fun games with less than 20 models on a side, maybe more with armies like Orks, of course. Other things would become pretty fun, like zooming single bikes around the battlefield as individuals, where before units of them could become cumbersome to track, due to things like damage effects.

At the very least you might have to shift some things around, like counting Terminators and Devastators (and equivalents for other armies) as "Support" units, because extremely small games could see them becoming overpowered with them just being "Troops" in 2nd edition. But playtesting could see that not matter, as modern 40K makes us forget how in 2nd edition a basic Space marine was 30pts, and a basic Terminator being over 60pts!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/27 01:33:47




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yeah, on reflection, 5th was a nice edition.


No. No it wasn't.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in ca
Huge Hierodule






Outflanking

Davor wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yeah, on reflection, 5th was a nice edition.


No. No it wasn't.


Support for argument?

Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?

A: A Maniraptor 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






To tell you the truth, every edition had it's bright sides and glaring problems.

I remember pretty well the parking lots of 5 ed. I loved stomping them with my greentide basically cause i found it super-fun to throw a helton of glances - say, 5-8 glances that teared a vehicle part by part. Immobilized, stunned, teared off the weapons, but it remained there. It was fun! But overall i agree that vehicles were too sturdy and they were way harder to deal in mellee with to-hit on 6-s if they moved combat speed. However, mellee mattered back than and there were not that much stupidly fast and protected skimmers. There were draigopallies, horde orkses, genestealers, berserker rushes. Mellee had strong presence and it was a viable part of almost every fight while not being dominant over shooting. No challenges, no focused fire and free wound allocation assured that. And termies meant something. Though, only TH+SS ones cause power weapons were plain ignoring any armor which was an issue too. The thing i miss alot was no pre-measurement.

6 ed brought more cinematic and interesting wound allocation, way more interesting power weapon options and crappy random charges, huge nerfs to cover saves for slow massive armies. It basically killed slow hordes that i loved so much. Way more fragile vehicles and totally ruined dreads which had allready been semi-optimal in 5 ed - not really good, but playable. It totally ruined outflanking mellee-fighters and 90% of mellee fighters on the whole. However, it'd be playable if not rediculous codex-ballance. It's total trash with new tau, daemons and mostly eldar. Stupid countless detachments, not-optimised alliances and basically ignoring foc.

7 ed is basically like 6 with some FAQ-es, much needed FMC nerf, much needed S: D nerf, a tiny bit sturdier vehicles, psy-phase and not properly tested daemonology. It's really no different other than that - it's not a completely different game like it was when 4 switched to 5 or 5 switched to 6. And don't tell me about free foc. It was allready free in 6 basically with all that detachments and allies.

If you're unhappy with the rules ballance - the best thing you could do is get together and create your own combined monstrousity with changes you think are best. Swithcing one imperfect product to another won't help.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/27 10:33:28


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Polonius wrote:
If you added hull points rules to 5th edition, you wouldn't be far off from a nicely balanced core rule set.
Vehicles would be even easier than they were to kill in 6th ed then (quite possibly the easiest to kill of any edition), and even GW realized that they went to far in 6th with that.

The problem with 5E vehicles wasn't the core vehicle rules or even overall vehicle durability. There was tons of vehicle kill in 5th (gobs of deepstriking meltas, SW armies with 25 long range S8/9 BS4 guns, etc) It was stuff like 35pt transports packed with assault troops and a damage table completely focused on gun-tanks (while the 35pt transports didn't care about the vast majority of glancing hits and even on pen's only cared about half the time.) Nobody thought things like Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks, Fire Prisms, Land Raiders, Predators, Falcons, Hellhounds, Ravagers, etc were an issue in 5th by and large.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
If you added hull points rules to 5th edition, you wouldn't be far off from a nicely balanced core rule set.
Vehicles would be even easier than they were to kill in 6th ed then (quite possibly the easiest to kill of any edition), and even GW realized that they went to far in 6th with that.

The problem with 5E vehicles wasn't the core vehicle rules or even overall vehicle durability. There was tons of vehicle kill in 5th (gobs of deepstriking meltas, SW armies with 25 long range S8/9 BS4 guns, etc) It was stuff like 35pt transports packed with assault troops and a damage table completely focused on gun-tanks (while the 35pt transports didn't care about the vast majority of glancing hits and even on pen's only cared about half the time.) Nobody thought things like Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks, Fire Prisms, Land Raiders, Predators, Falcons, Hellhounds, Ravagers, etc were an issue in 5th by and large.

After hacking apart a LRBT / Sentinel / HWT gunline with 40 CSM and a daemon prince, I can attest to that. Zerg rushed up the board, roflpwned everything in assault.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Off-topic, but Vaktathi - if I could exalt a signature, I would.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in sg
Been Around the Block




Singapore

I play 4th edition but the vehicles are easy to destroy, like they were too fragile.
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

Davor wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yeah, on reflection, 5th was a nice edition.


No. No it wasn't.

Yes. Yes it was.

I loved RT, disliked second, completely skipped third, loved 4th, loved 5th until 2011, disliked 6th and recently found I dislike 7th even more.

I still play 5th with a couple of friends occasionally. No flyers, no fortifications, no look-out-sir madness, no challenges, no allies... so good

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Fifth edition gets a bad wrap, but mostly because of the terrible balance between books. Armies like Tau and Eldar were terrible, with outdated books. Armies like Grey Knights and Necrons were amazingly powerful.

With even light comp (and possibly a few house rules regarding KPs), 5th edition is fine.

The main core problems with 5th edition are that vehicles are shockingly durable, terrain rules still rely on true line of sight, and cover saves were far too common and defaulted to a 4+.

If you took 5th and lowered the basic cover save to 5+, and found some way to tame down vehicles (and by that, it's mostly transports), you'd have a really solid rule set.
   
Made in es
Morphing Obliterator




Elsewhere

 Polonius wrote:
Fifth edition gets a bad wrap, but mostly because of the terrible balance between books. Armies like Tau and Eldar were terrible, with outdated books. Armies like Grey Knights and Necrons were amazingly powerful.

This is the reason I said 'until 2011'. Codex GK, Codex Necrons and (for other, completely different reasons) Codex: Sisters of Battle killed most of the fun.

With even light comp (and possibly a few house rules regarding KPs), 5th edition is fine.

The main core problems with 5th edition are that vehicles are shockingly durable, terrain rules still rely on true line of sight, and cover saves were far too common and defaulted to a 4+.

If you took 5th and lowered the basic cover save to 5+, and found some way to tame down vehicles (and by that, it's mostly transports), you'd have a really solid rule set.

Agreed.
Add Hull Points, lower the basic cover save to 5+, fix wound allocation and tweak a handful of units and you get quite a good game.

‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Desperado Corp.

We've been thinking of letting Tau and Eldar use their new books and supplements, with tweaks to make them useable in 5th.

We also figured that Piranhas cost negative points.

40 points for a Piranha and two Gun Drones, right? Those Gun drones would be 24 points , which means the Piranha hull is 16 points. Two Fire warriors are 18 points (and those two Fire Warriors are currently piloting the Piranha.) Ergo, the Piranha itself is -2 points.

Before people go on that they don't have Pulse Rifles or whatever, I want to point out that this still means its apparently cheaper for the Tau to outfit it's basic warriors with a Piranha than with a Pulse Rifle each.

Yay Tau logistics!

OT though, we'll probably Comp sixth with better Tau and Eldar codexes, allow supplements (comped to make sense), nerf cover a little, possibly tweak vehicles in some way. No one really uses transport spam here, so we're good on that front.

How do we go about fixing wound allocation though? Some of us like 6th's version, I personally think it bones assault armies too much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 15:20:56


Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. 
   
 
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