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So what's the consensus on ruins in this new edition. It says if you are in a ruin you get a 4+ cover even if you are not 25% obscured by line of sight.

Okay they also imply on pg. 108 of the BRB that the base of a ruin would count as difficult terrain (rubble) but because they can never be 25% obscured by rubble so you gain no benefit it just slows you down.

My question is what do you guys consider in a ruin?

A) within the outline of the ruin itself.

B) los on bottom floor. Ruin 4+ for 2nd floor or higher.

C) The whole base of a ruin is 4+ always.

This to me is very important because ruins is what we deal with most at tournaments. It went from 6 paragraphs of ruin rules to 1 sentence. Nice!

I use the rules from Cities of Death.

RAW, as long as you're on the base of the ruin, you get the save, even if you're in front of the actual ruin.

HIWPI, only give the save if any part of the ruin, regardless of size, is between the target and the shooter.

I'd go with the base of the ruin, similar to the old method for area terrain.

And what if the ruin is free-standing without a base?

Then you will have to agree with your opponent on what would grant cover in the case of something without a base.

When I built my COD buildings I mounted them all on a piece of MDF. My group has pretty much used the entire footprint as terrain since it avoids the "I can see you, no you can't" discussions that can come up when trying to determine cover.

The area terrain rules are just gone.

Now ruins only gives a 4+ cover save if you are actually 'in' it, which means you actually have to have the model ON the terrain, so if you don't have your ruin on a base, then models have to actually go stand on the upper floors to be 'in' it.

But here's the real crazy part: any terrain that is listed as having to be 'in' to get a cover save only provides a cover save if you're actually in it.

So a model standing outside of a ruin gets shot at by an enemy model standing on the other side of the ruin and like 98% of the model is obscured by that ruin...he gets NO cover save from that ruin.

Hooray for GW!!!


And since difficult ground is now the default for a lot of things that were formerly area terrain (like forests) and these only give a 5+ cover save if models are 'behind' (which means 25% actually obscured) that means that forests only now provide a cover save if your models are actually obscured by the trees.

All those tournaments that use forests for area terrain...they're all now basically worthless.

Hooray for GW!!!

Wait...
Trees now matter while walls of Ruins do not?
What backwardness is this?!

 yakface wrote:
All those tournaments that use forests for area terrain...they're all now basically worthless.

There's a Terrain Datasheet in the Appendix called "Twised Copse" that covers those forests (p707 in the iBook if that helps).

Difficult terrain (so 5+ if obscured), and gives a 5+ for being "in" it (obscured or not).

JinxDragon wrote:
Wait...
Trees now matter while walls of Ruins do not?
What backwardness is this?!

There are two distinct types of terrain now.

Things that give cover saves for being 'in' them (which is defined as having a model on the terrain feature) and things that give cover saves fore being 'behind' them (which is defined as physically obscuring 25% of a model).

Ruins are a thing that gives a cover save for being 'in' them, while forests are now just 'difficult terrain' which only gives a cover save for behind 'behind' them (at least 25% obscured).

However, rubble is listed as being both difficult terrain (5+ save for being behind it) and then later a 4+ save for being 'in' it.


I think probably the rules for 'difficult terrain' apply in all cases (if the model is 25% obscured, it gets a 5+ cover save) and then the other instances are on top of that...but even assuming that's correct, forests are most definitely in the category of ONLY providing cover to models they physically block 25% of.

So everyone that just uses forest area terrain with like 2 or 3 trees on the side is now screwed if they want to play RAW.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 yakface wrote:
All those tournaments that use forests for area terrain...they're all now basically worthless.

There's a Terrain Datasheet in the Appendix called "Twised Copse" that covers those forests (p707 in the iBook if that helps).

Difficult terrain, and gives a 5+ for being "in" it

Even if you choose to use those rules for non-GW forests, they still no longer provide cover to people standing on the other side of them unless the trees actually block 25%. 6th edition reduced the abstraction of firing 'through' area terrain down to just forests (they were the only thing that played that way), but at least they still had that, so any tournament could just call their area terrain 'forests' and still have terrain that provided some cover when being fired through despite not being something that actually (in the real world) blocks line of sight.

Now that is totally gone. Terrain now ONLY blocks line of sight how it actually physically blocks line of sight. Nothing provides cover saves automatically just for being fired through anymore, which is a huge burden for events trying to put terrain on their tables. They're going to have to house-rule stuff to make it work.

 yakface wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 yakface wrote:
All those tournaments that use forests for area terrain...they're all now basically worthless.

There's a Terrain Datasheet in the Appendix called "Twised Copse" that covers those forests (p707 in the iBook if that helps).

Difficult terrain, and gives a 5+ for being "in" it

Even if you choose to use those rules for non-GW forests, they still no longer provide cover to people standing on the other side of them unless the trees actually block 25%. 6th edition reduced the abstraction of firing 'through' area terrain down to just forests (they were the only thing that played that way), but at least they still had that, so any tournament could just call their area terrain 'forests' and still have terrain that provided some cover when being fired through despite not being something that actually (in the real world) blocks line of sight.

Now that is totally gone. Terrain now ONLY blocks line of sight how it actually physically blocks line of sight. Nothing provides cover saves automatically just for being fired through anymore, which is a huge burden for events trying to put terrain on their tables. They're going to have to house-rule stuff to make it work.

Ah yes, I see your point.

Thicker forests or house rules required

 grendel083 wrote:

Ah yes, I see your point.

Thicker forests or house rules required

Or you can just bring...a shrubbery! Make a forest that goes all the way across the base, with no breaks, but only rises about 1". It will cover 25% of most models (their shins!)

 yakface wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Wait...
Trees now matter while walls of Ruins do not?
What backwardness is this?!

There are two distinct types of terrain now.

Things that give cover saves for being 'in' them (which is defined as having a model on the terrain feature) and things that give cover saves fore being 'behind' them (which is defined as physically obscuring 25% of a model).

Ruins are a thing that gives a cover save for being 'in' them, while forests are now just 'difficult terrain' which only gives a cover save for behind 'behind' them (at least 25% obscured).

However, rubble is listed as being both difficult terrain (5+ save for being behind it) and then later a 4+ save for being 'in' it.


I think probably the rules for 'difficult terrain' apply in all cases (if the model is 25% obscured, it gets a 5+ cover save) and then the other instances are on top of that...but even assuming that's correct, forests are most definitely in the category of ONLY providing cover to models they physically block 25% of.

So everyone that just uses forest area terrain with like 2 or 3 trees on the side is now screwed if they want to play RAW.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 yakface wrote:
All those tournaments that use forests for area terrain...they're all now basically worthless.

There's a Terrain Datasheet in the Appendix called "Twised Copse" that covers those forests (p707 in the iBook if that helps).

Difficult terrain, and gives a 5+ for being "in" it

Even if you choose to use those rules for non-GW forests, they still no longer provide cover to people standing on the other side of them unless the trees actually block 25%. 6th edition reduced the abstraction of firing 'through' area terrain down to just forests (they were the only thing that played that way), but at least they still had that, so any tournament could just call their area terrain 'forests' and still have terrain that provided some cover when being fired through despite not being something that actually (in the real world) blocks line of sight.

Now that is totally gone. Terrain now ONLY blocks line of sight how it actually physically blocks line of sight. Nothing provides cover saves automatically just for being fired through anymore, which is a huge burden for events trying to put terrain on their tables. They're going to have to house-rule stuff to make it work.

Thank you very much for the clarification. The guys at frontline play it the same way at the BAO.

It's a little confusing when you try to use common sense but that is the case with some GO rules.

NEEEECROMANCY!
RUUUUUUN!

Let's leave threads more than 1 month idle alone, please.