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Simple question-- why don't the CWE grow new space elves in vats, like the Dark Eldar do? Especially a craftworld like Iyanden that is barely hanging on or Biel Tan, which is always looking to expand it's aspect shrines? As I understand it the vat born still have souls (thus the DE vatborn still have to go on raids to recharge their essence) and are in all aspects fully Eldar, although they are discriminated against in the dark city due to their low origins.

If the necromancy of wraith constructs is tolerated... why not meddle in birthing new generations in vats? They could bounce back quicker, much quicker, if they did. I see no reason, rational or irrational to stop them from doing this. Since twins are so essential to so many of the most destructive of Vauls engines, they could even birth huge numbers of twins, hatching 500-1000 per generation (I believe from Xenology that eldar gestation takes 24 months, I assume the vat period would be at least as long). It's more efficient too since a large reason why their are so few Eldar is that family formation is basically shot there-- would you want to bring a kid into the world knowing there was about even chances their soul would be devoured? But the vat born would be wards of the craftworld not the children of any individual. I know if I was an autarch I would be demanding that the process be initiated, before more craftworlds were lost.

Because it's a terrible thing to do? While necromancy is done it's a last resort and is still slightly less terrible. Plus Autarch's don't command the Craftworlds so they have no say in the matter. Maybe they just don't have the technology for it.
Don't see why the idea of Slaanesh stops people having children though...

Not to mention the fact it would ruin the whole "dying race" thing.

Eldar still breed the same way we do as per the Path of series and Xenology. Put tab a into slot b and repeat until satisfied, wait until babby comes out of slot b. And from what we see of their culture, the Eldar love their families and children just as much as we do.

Vat-birthing has all sorts of moral quandries, and is unlikely to be accepted by CWE culture. Especially when love is such a big part of it.

I doubt they are particularly eager to hold on to their 'dying race' title.

Pulling souls back from the after life to fight again and risk their souls again in an eternity of war seems quite a bit more immoral than a crash population rebuilding program.

I think many people would abstain from having children if they knew there was a 50% or higher chance that said child would be tortured for all eternity by the most perverted predator in the galaxy.

Well, no one really commands a craftworld. They don't have a chief executive per say, except during rare, time limited situations. Still, if the entire council of Autarchs demands something, that is a pretty strong force to contend with politically. Objection would have to be equally unanimous, which I feel like is unlikely.

I imagine the technology would not be hard to acquire, if they do not already have it. Corsairs and Outcasts have regular, extended contact with the Dark Eldar, and vat technology is extremely commonplace among them.

I imagine that is how it would start actually, with a pirate prince or void dreamer or some corsair admiral vat breeding new corsairs to swell the numbers of his fleet. Then the practice catches on with all the corsairs till it is gradually adopted by the more liberal craftworlds.

Every society will have some values or positions that it finds core to its very existence, and which it is not willing to sacrifice or compromise. If they did sacrifice these values, they would arguably be no longer what they were trying to protect.

There is survival at any cost no matter how degrading and there is survival with dignity. The former is what Nurgle offers.

Craftworld Eldar dead are called back to service but they at least led lives before they died and their lives were not solely for the sake of fighting. Use of wraith constructs therefore is quite different from making new Eldar who are solely to fight.

Eldar society and language is hinted at to be full of history, myth, and etiquette. Just pumping out children purely to increase numbers and neglecting their upbringing is like raising a generation of ferals. One of the key goals of the Craftworlds is to preserve pre-Fall Eldar culture and civilization from before it become decadent, so such methods would be at odds with one of the fundamental purposes of their culture. The lack of "proper" upbringing is possibly one of the reasons why trueborn Dark Eldar look down on the vatborn: they are viewed as uncouth uncultured thugs.

Ultimately the issue is of whether the means justify the ends. Is survival at any price even if it requires debasement and betrayal of core values worth it? For the Eldar, the answer is no. They want to survive as Eldar, without having to compromise those core beliefs and ideas of identity. It is easy to laugh and dismiss them as being silly or hidebound and rigid, but it is equally possible to find acts at which a modern individual would rebel against even though the alternative might be death or another horrible fate.

I assume that the test tube birthing is part of what has led to the Dark Eldar's decline. Increased hostility, lowered sanity, elimination of psychic potential, etc. And even if that isn't true, I also think that it stands to reason that the CWE would think that it was.

IIRC, vat-grown Eldar has no "soul" and completely lacks even the most basic aptitude for psychic stuff. And since everything the CWE use is psychic...

 Silverthorne wrote:
I doubt they are particularly eager to hold on to their 'dying race' title.

Pulling souls back from the after life to fight again and risk their souls again in an eternity of war seems quite a bit more immoral than a crash population rebuilding program.

I think many people would abstain from having children if they knew there was a 50% or higher chance that said child would be tortured for all eternity by the most perverted predator in the galaxy.

Well, no one really commands a craftworld. They don't have a chief executive per say, except during rare, time limited situations. Still, if the entire council of Autarchs demands something, that is a pretty strong force to contend with politically. Objection would have to be equally unanimous, which I feel like is unlikely.

I imagine the technology would not be hard to acquire, if they do not already have it. Corsairs and Outcasts have regular, extended contact with the Dark Eldar, and vat technology is extremely commonplace among them.

I imagine that is how it would start actually, with a pirate prince or void dreamer or some corsair admiral vat breeding new corsairs to swell the numbers of his fleet. Then the practice catches on with all the corsairs till it is gradually adopted by the more liberal craftworlds.

No but the writers probably are.

Like most moral things it's an opinion.

Unless you give them a soul stone making them 100% safe. Shame only ALL children get them.

The Farseers do.

Because Craftworlders frequently trade with Dark Eldar.

you can't think of a single example of a soul stone failing to protect an Eldar? You need to read more background, souls being drunk or spilled out of soul stones is almost a trope it's so common. Aside from the trivial task of physically destroying the gem demons and sorcers can drain the essence of filled soul stones just by proximity. Pretty well known since it happened to like, the most famous elf in all the background.

Corsairs trade with DE and have them in their crews. I specifically mentioned that's where it would start.

No, the farseers don't, actually. Only the avatars do, and they are not summoned very often.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I assume that the test tube birthing is part of what has led to the Dark Eldar's decline. Increased hostility, lowered sanity, elimination of psychic potential, etc. And even if that isn't true, I also think that it stands to reason that the CWE would think that it was.

This sounds like the most rational thing I have read so far in this thread. Have an exalt for it.

 Silverthorne wrote:
you can't think of a single example of a soul stone failing to protect an Eldar? You need to read more background, souls being drunk or spilled out of soul stones is almost a trope it's so common. Aside from the trivial task of physically destroying the gem demons and sorcers can drain the essence of filled soul stones just by proximity. Pretty well known since it happened to like, the most famous elf in all the background.

Corsairs trade with DE and have them in their crews. I specifically mentioned that's where it would start.

No, the farseers don't, actually. Only the avatars do, and they are not summoned very often.

No so why don't you give a link?

Corsairs are still not Craftworlders.

.....Just what?

Avatars don't lead craftworlds. I'm sure it probably varies from craftworld to craftworld, but they usually seem lead by some sort of council made of far seers, and maybe autarchs.

There is the argument that some people propose that the Eldar are not 'dying' physically, but culturally. There time is past, humanity is forging forwards.... kinda. Their population has little to do with it. Biel-Tan seeks to revive the race by stepping forward to conquer. It's a mental thing, not physical.

The practise of using soul stones and the like is abhorrent, but the Eldar tolerate it because the souls are willing to do it for the continuation of the race. I agree that the vat growing would disgust the Eldar. Lack of parents, 'artificial' life and the whole discrimination thing the Dark Eldar have going on. I think that is why the Eldar avoid it.

And yeah, the Eldar Craftworlds don't really have a unified leader. They are possibly the most democratic race in existence.

Wraith aren't brought back from the afterlife. An Eldar soul that passes on is always consumed by Slanesh (Cegorath saves a few, but not many). Because of this, CW Eldar do what they can to never let their people pass on. The Soulstones trap the soul *before* it passes on, and then it is transfered to the Craft world's Infinity Circuit. Basically, Purgatory. Wraith constructs use these stored souls, not the souls of Eldar who have passed on.

To make more Eldar, they would have to have a Soul, or they wouldn't really be Eldar. And if you're going to use something that isn't truly Eldar, why use Eldar at all? In those cases, just influene an Ork WAAGH. Easier, more available, and no perversion required.

If the clone Eldar did have souls, then they are mass producing Eldar for damnation. First, because soulstones at limited (they cannot be manufactured, only harvested from the Eye). Second, the soul stone isn't a perfect guarantee. Third, soul stones only provide purgatory, not true salvation from being consumed.

Therefore, using clones would be pointless and possibly damning. Not the most effective plan, and it betrays what hey are at their core.

Vat-born dark eldar have souls otherwise they wouldn't need to fear slaneesh. Also they wouldn't be able to be resurrected by heamonculi.

Bharring wrote:
Wraith aren't brought back from the afterlife. An Eldar soul that passes on is always consumed by Slanesh (Cegorath saves a few, but not many). Because of this, CW Eldar do what they can to never let their people pass on. The Soulstones trap the soul *before* it passes on, and then it is transfered to the Craft world's Infinity Circuit. Basically, Purgatory. Wraith constructs use these stored souls, not the souls of Eldar who have passed on.

To make more Eldar, they would have to have a Soul, or they wouldn't really be Eldar. And if you're going to use something that isn't truly Eldar, why use Eldar at all? In those cases, just influene an Ork WAAGH. Easier, more available, and no perversion required.

If the clone Eldar did have souls, then they are mass producing Eldar for damnation. First, because soulstones at limited (they cannot be manufactured, only harvested from the Eye). Second, the soul stone isn't a perfect guarantee. Third, soul stones only provide purgatory, not true salvation from being consumed.

Therefore, using clones would be pointless and possibly damning. Not the most effective plan, and it betrays what hey are at their core.

The Dark Eldar do not need soulstones to keep Slaanesh at bay.

I just assumed it was a combination of 1. not wanting to deal with heamonculi, who are needed to run the process, and 2. They lack the resources to raise and take care of the resulting offspring correctly.

Even with the DE, trueborns are a status symbol and loved (at least in the twisted world of DE). For CWE there is even a larger hurdle in that raising children in the monastic way of life common to CWE is even harder, and they can't risk kids slipping through the cracks in the system and going nuts or becoming possessed.

I'm seeing implications that being vatborn would mean you have no soul. Why? Is the true nature of the oh-so-wonderful soul so entirely dependent on the mashing together of sweaty animal genitalia? Does some cosmic force watch each and every conception and say "Hot damn, your baby gets a soul"? Even if this were the case, wouldn't it be extremely beneficial to make every new Eldar child effectively a Blank? That's assuming that coitus = soul, though, which is a silly idea.

Nobody said that these vatborn wouldn't be raised with love and teaching, especially if they were running this specifically as a population-increasing program. There would be measures in place to ensure these new Eldar children are cared for (going to Eldar orphanage is hardly the worst thing in the world, either). Meanwhile, if it's so difficult for Eldar to conceive, why not give willing couples a child or two, vatborn from their very own DNA? Every Eldar is a warrior, no matter what path their life has taken. Whether you're a chef, a butcher, a gardener, a housecleaner - when the Craftworld calls for war, you answer. That's what is meant by these vatborn "defending the Craftworld".

The "don't vatbirth because it's dooming Eldar lives to Slaanesh" doesn't make sense, either. Why don't they just give up now, then? The Eldar aren't humans, so the primary means of population growth is hardly going to be "we're obsessed with copulating and sometimes we forget to use contraception".

pm713 wrote:
Because it's a terrible thing to do? While necromancy is done it's a last resort and is still slightly less terrible. Plus Autarch's don't command the Craftworlds so they have no say in the matter. Maybe they just don't have the technology for it.
Don't see why the idea of Slaanesh stops people having children though...

Not to mention the fact it would ruin the whole "dying race" thing.

Slaanesh doesn't stop people having children, it's just faster to make Vat-Born to supply troops for raids.

My explanation would be that they may not have the resources to start Vat-Birthing hundreds of Eldar as they don't raid, their economies tend to be self-sufficient. Well, the craftworlders anyway.

How is it worse than necromancy?

Making babies using genitals = a good! (babies have souls)
Using the souls of the dead to make robots = questionable?
Making babies using science = THE WORST EVIL (babies don't have souls because reasons)

Since the Eldar are in decline they probably refuse to use vat babies because, maybe, its a sign of desperation. Such a proud race having to resort to such activity to survive would probably seem too low for them.

They already accept they have to rouse the dead to survive sometimes, that already hurts them, but going one step lower is just too far.

So simply pride and arrogance would be the reason for it.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
How is it worse than necromancy?

Making babies using genitals = a good! (babies have souls)
Using the souls of the dead to make robots = questionable?
Making babies using science = THE WORST EVIL (babies don't have souls because reasons)

Considering that the science involved most likely requires the pain and suffering of many sentient species the CWE most likely wouldn't want it. Sometimes using science to solve problem is considered bad even today. That's why stem cell research is hamstrung.

Even if the CWE did resort to cloning they probably wouldn't have enough spirit stones to do it in a meaningful way. So they would be damning anyone without one to be consumed by slaneesh. This is ok for dark eldar because the don't care if other individuals are damned. They avoid slaneesh by trying to live forever.

All dark eldar have souls or they wouldn't need to hide from slaanesh, and the soul still needs to be lingering around in order for them to be resurrected.

I'd argue that as the Eldar aren't really a capitalist society, they don't need population booms to boost their economies. In fact, being stuck on giant space ships kind of limits any desire to procreate too much. The Craftworlders have survived by being small nomadic bands. They simply are not in a position to lay down roots and try to carve out a new empire.

Craftworld Eldar are beyond capitalism etc - they are post scarcity I think its called - They only work at things they want to do.

kinda a much lower powered and Grim Dark version of the Culture...

 Silverthorne wrote:
Simple question-- why don't the CWE grow new space elves in vats, like the Dark Eldar do? Especially a craftworld like Iyanden that is barely hanging on or Biel Tan, which is always looking to expand it's aspect shrines? As I understand it the vat born still have souls (thus the DE vatborn still have to go on raids to recharge their essence) and are in all aspects fully Eldar, although they are discriminated against in the dark city due to their low origins.

If the necromancy of wraith constructs is tolerated... why not meddle in birthing new generations in vats? They could bounce back quicker, much quicker, if they did. I see no reason, rational or irrational to stop them from doing this. Since twins are so essential to so many of the most destructive of Vauls engines, they could even birth huge numbers of twins, hatching 500-1000 per generation (I believe from Xenology that eldar gestation takes 24 months, I assume the vat period would be at least as long). It's more efficient too since a large reason why their are so few Eldar is that family formation is basically shot there-- would you want to bring a kid into the world knowing there was about even chances their soul would be devoured? But the vat born would be wards of the craftworld not the children of any individual. I know if I was an autarch I would be demanding that the process be initiated, before more craftworlds were lost.

I would guess a combination of a few things.

First, the Eldar Pregnancy is long and requires a lot of effort. CWE respect effort and probably see the long hardship as some sort of Path to be accomplished, something to dedicate themselves to. Using a machine to do so might lead them away from the path, lead them down the same road that led to the fall in the first place.

Second, CWE have limited resources. They grow their weapons and materials while DE manufacture it in factories. This probably has to do with growing things being lower cost in terms of energy/raw materials but slower. DE are a strange faction in that they have enormous energy+raw material wealth. They can spend enormous inputs to kill in a particular fashion. The cost is almost irrelevant. CWE on the other hand are very limited. Very high tech but the cost of things prevents some of their wide spread use.

Third the number of Eldar produced is not the limiting factor for CWE. It's the number of Eldar they can Raise. Training a new citizen takes a lot of effort. You have to have the proper number of adult eldar to properly rear the children, teach them the Path, teach them all the skills that make a CWE a CWE. While the pregancy is draining, it pales in comparison to the needs to turn an eldar child into an adult. DE dont worry so much about this, grow a bunch of children and they will eventually find their way or they will die.

Swastakowey wrote:Since the Eldar are in decline they probably refuse to use vat babies because, maybe, its a sign of desperation. Such a proud race having to resort to such activity to survive would probably seem too low for them.

They already accept they have to rouse the dead to survive sometimes, that already hurts them, but going one step lower is just too far.

What makes it worse than necromancy?

Trystis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
How is it worse than necromancy?

Making babies using genitals = a good! (babies have souls)
Using the souls of the dead to make robots = questionable?
Making babies using science = THE WORST EVIL (babies don't have souls because reasons)

Considering that the science involved most likely requires the pain and suffering of many sentient species the CWE most likely wouldn't want it. Sometimes using science to solve problem is considered bad even today.

Where are you getting that from? Just, what?

Trystis wrote:That's why stem cell research is hamstrung.

Actually, it's really not. Ethical opposition to stem cell research is a mixture of religious "only God can mess with life" and the abortion debate. We are not yet able to induce mass-replication of stem cells; in short, we have to create them by fertilising a sperm and an ovum. People take issue with this because they see it like scientists are grinding up babies for their soup, when in actuality it's just a lump of cells that would never have been created otherwise. This is part of the abortion debate - when does that lump of cells become considered a human child, and all that. For detractors of stem cell gathering, this life is always valid, although they don't believe that every ovum and sperm are a life, so it's a bit hypocritical (nobody is wailing for the trillions of possible-babies that die every day).

In 2014, this kind of science is fledgling at best and yet we are on the cusp of solving this exact problem. What makes you think that the Eldar - never mind the Imperium, who we know are capable of vat-growing new limbs and organs, something we are rapidly approaching in our own era - wouldn't be able to clone stem cells? Do you really think the mind-bogglingly advanced Eldar aren't capable of feats of genetics beyond that of 21st century humans?

Frozen Ocean, Trystis is referring to the crystal coffins they use to regrow Dark Eldar, not to clone them.

It was in direct response to my question about why "making babies with science" was bad, though.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Simple question-- why don't the CWE grow new space elves in vats, like the Dark Eldar do? Especially a craftworld like Iyanden that is barely hanging on or Biel Tan, which is always looking to expand it's aspect shrines? As I understand it the vat born still have souls (thus the DE vatborn still have to go on raids to recharge their essence) and are in all aspects fully Eldar, although they are discriminated against in the dark city due to their low origins.

If the necromancy of wraith constructs is tolerated... why not meddle in birthing new generations in vats? They could bounce back quicker, much quicker, if they did. I see no reason, rational or irrational to stop them from doing this. Since twins are so essential to so many of the most destructive of Vauls engines, they could even birth huge numbers of twins, hatching 500-1000 per generation (I believe from Xenology that eldar gestation takes 24 months, I assume the vat period would be at least as long). It's more efficient too since a large reason why their are so few Eldar is that family formation is basically shot there-- would you want to bring a kid into the world knowing there was about even chances their soul would be devoured? But the vat born would be wards of the craftworld not the children of any individual. I know if I was an autarch I would be demanding that the process be initiated, before more craftworlds were lost.

The whole concept of the Eldar race dying off is a jump the shark moment. There's no reason they could do this, and turn everything around in a few generations.

In fact one could proffer the Dark Eldar are that, the true eldar, and could expand at any time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Craftworld Eldar are beyond capitalism etc - they are post scarcity I think its called - They only work at things they want to do.

kinda a much lower powered and Grim Dark version of the Culture...

They act like a post scracity society but they aren't. If so they could throw hundreds of thousands of ships at any enemy and wipe them out.

The Eldar empire may have been able to do that. Craftworld Eldar certainly cannot, and thats their limiting factor. Their population is small, but its their manufacturing base that appears to be declining.

The Dark Eldar only keep Slanesh at bay as long as they live, and by torturing as much and as many as they can. In Dark Eldar society, members die regularly, and are consumed by Slanesh. The Dark Eldar 'fix' is to not care about anyone but themselves, whereas Craftworlders care about saving other members of their Craftworld from Slanesh.

So the Dark Eldar solution isn't workable solution for Craftworlders. If it were, they would be Dark Eldar.

(The difference between the two isn't where they live)