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Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

So.. yeah. Not sure if this is the right category for this thread but one thing hit me lately.

See - it's very common to mention the very exploitative pricing practice used by GW given the rising price tags on stuff and some really stupid ideas(Witch Elves for WFB anyone?).. then I looked at Warmachine and.. it's not really that much better - it's just the armies that are smaller, so the cost is not as high. But what I was getting at is the last thing mentioned in thread's title - plastic model kits. I've been looking for possible conversion material for my Imperial Guard Astra Militarum and some useful stuff like 1:35 scale artillery that looks like Earthshaker Cannon emplacements from Forge World and industrial buildings(for Warmachine and 40k Hive environments) and... boy, were those kits expensive! For example in my FLGS a Leman Russ kit costs a little short of $45 while a regular 1:35 artillery piece, tank or building from a mainstream manufacturer come up at prices ranging from $35-42 while most of them hanging around the $40-41 price tag.

Now I don't know if there are some factors related to me living in Poland or something, but I find it hard to look at a 40k vehicle kit with all the options and actually think that it's overpriced. Given the fact that most 'regular' model kits are made out of plastic that feels inferior to GW's one(not to mention the amount of it - 40k vehicle bits are very thick and chunky) and they often lack the crispiness(derp) of the detail that 40k kits have I actually start thinking that 40k is not -that- overly expensive. Especially that those models have also some use other than just making dioramas for enthusiasts. I mean.. you can play with it. Of course there's also the price tag of the Codex and rulebook, on every model, but the game itself has it's own costs to develop and work on, while model vehicles are there just.. to look pretty. GW uses more, seemingly better quality(or at least prettier) plastic with better moulds and often gives lots of additional bits/options.. It's a bit less prominent in case of buildings, but it's still there.

Penny for your thoughts?

P.s. - sorry if you got disappointed that this is not yet another GW pricing bashing thread!

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

'Dubs does do good stuff, I'll give them that, but it's that they artificially raise prices, even if almost nothing has changed. The extreme price increases GW makes allows much greater scope for pricing by other manufacturers. Why sell a squad at £20 less than GW, when you can sell it for £5 less, and get the same custom?
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

 Selym wrote:
'Dubs does do good stuff, I'll give them that, but it's that they artificially raise prices, even if almost nothing has changed. The extreme price increases GW makes allows much greater scope for pricing by other manufacturers. Why sell a squad at £20 less than GW, when you can sell it for £5 less, and get the same custom?


But the main problem here is that it's not other wargaming manufacturers that I'm talking about (aside from Privateer Press and Spartan Games - they like to price some of their models ridiculously), but actual 'regular' model kit manufacturers such as Revell or Tamiya! I don't have a problem with GW setting prices for hobby as a whole, but when we count in that we can play with our models while hobbyist model collectors can only have their plastic fix for display. And suddenly our hobby turns out to not be -that- expensive, compared to a collection of regular models and the price difference with rulebooks is offset by the ability to use them for their respective games.

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Klerych wrote:
 Selym wrote:
'Dubs does do good stuff, I'll give them that, but it's that they artificially raise prices, even if almost nothing has changed. The extreme price increases GW makes allows much greater scope for pricing by other manufacturers. Why sell a squad at £20 less than GW, when you can sell it for £5 less, and get the same custom?


But the main problem here is that it's not other wargaming manufacturers that I'm talking about (aside from Privateer Press and Spartan Games - they like to price some of their models ridiculously), but actual 'regular' model kit manufacturers such as Revell or Tamiya! I don't have a problem with GW setting prices for hobby as a whole, but when we count in that we can play with our models while hobbyist model collectors can only have their plastic fix for display. And suddenly our hobby turns out to not be -that- expensive, compared to a collection of regular models and the price difference with rulebooks is offset by the ability to use them for their respective games.

Fair statement, to be sure, but it's never nice to know that GW could sell a box of whatever at half the current price, and still come away with a large profit margin. Would attract enough more buyers to make up the difference, too.

Personally, the only reason I'm not buying from GW at the moment is the fact that they are very openly money-grabbing. Any chance to make a sale, and they practically try to rob you.
At least when other companies make a go for your money, they try to be nice about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/24 20:13:31


 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

A decent well detailed 1:35 kit for £45 Sure I'll stump up the cash. It's worth it to me.

I don't know about lack of detail. Tamiya, one of many, produce some amazingly detailed kits, lots of component parts etc.

Even comparing apples for apples there are a feth ton of polish companies producing compatible minis that blow GW out of the water detail wise and are still cheaper than the Nottingham Devils product.





   
Made in us
Preceptor




Rochester, NY

Honestly after all is said and done, 40k wouldn't feel like such a rip-off if it were a better game. If a new edition/codex came out, and everyone felt like it was balanced, fun, and its contents were concise and clear, I don't think people would squirm about the model prices. But when in one codex your carnifexes are good, then a new codex comes out and they're bad (but mysteriously a new $65 kit for the same slot is good), and after you bought those, a new codex comes out and your carnifexes are good again but the previously new unit is bad, you start to suspect something's up.

But what do I know? There should be a few people here shortly that will tell you it's done that way on purpose and you're playing it wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/24 20:41:25


Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

- Hanlon's Razor
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






The model prices aren't bad for those most part. All the Finecast stuff is stillborn; overpriced for what you're getting, but the plastics are pretty boss.

I think it's the combination of truly outrageous rules costs along with the sheer quantity of models necessary to enjoy a good game of Warhammer 40k (Game plays best in the 1500~2000pt region) that is the hard part to swallow.

In Infinity, a $60 TAG can be nearly a third of your army. In Warmachine, a $60 box of infantry or heavy jack/warbeast can be a fifth of your army.

A new addition such as these models in other games makes for something both worth taking (usually) and worth the dollar cost. Where as even the biggest $85-$115 kits are around 200~300 pts and that's 10~15% of your army. Not including the massive amounts of infantry models you need and their transports.

Also, for the "Kings" of big kits, I point to the Gundam Master Grade kits. Giant 12" tall robots with quadruple the sprues of a GW model of similar stature, fully possible, colored plastics, and lots of detail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/24 20:46:28


Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

Well, yeah, some armies will be more expensive, some will be cheap. Look at Ogres in Warhammer Fantasy Battles - for, what, 250$ and some ingenuity when it comes to converting you can have a viable 2400pts ETC-ready army. I think Deathwing and Draigowing can be inexpensive too.

The role of a miniature is also a big factor - a 200pt hero mini(say, sm Captain) can cost you as little as 30$ while a squad of 10 vets with a chimera(145pts with meltas) will cost 70$. Even more if you want to use Scion models as grenadier doctrine veterans with their carapace armour.

All in all I start thinking that the hobby is not really that overpriced, aside maybe from the rulebooks(although call me crazy but I think there's nothing wrong with, say, 65$ price tag on a BRB).

While I get that in Infinity the same money will mean much more(or even in Warmachine), it's still the same problem - those games are ten times smaller in battle scale than 40k so it is actually bound to be expensive. It seems a bit abstact that 40k army with lots of models would cost the same amount as a (relatively) small Warmachine force. Not to mention Infinity's skirmishes.

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

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Made in us
Wraith






 Klerych wrote:
Well, yeah, some armies will be more expensive, some will be cheap. Look at Ogres in Warhammer Fantasy Battles - for, what, 250$ and some ingenuity when it comes to converting you can have a viable 2400pts ETC-ready army. I think Deathwing and Draigowing can be inexpensive too.

The role of a miniature is also a big factor - a 200pt hero mini(say, sm Captain) can cost you as little as 30$ while a squad of 10 vets with a chimera(145pts with meltas) will cost 70$. Even more if you want to use Scion models as grenadier doctrine veterans with their carapace armour.

All in all I start thinking that the hobby is not really that overpriced, aside maybe from the rulebooks(although call me crazy but I think there's nothing wrong with, say, 65$ price tag on a BRB).

While I get that in Infinity the same money will mean much more(or even in Warmachine), it's still the same problem - those games are ten times smaller in battle scale than 40k so it is actually bound to be expensive. It seems a bit abstact that 40k army with lots of models would cost the same amount as a (relatively) small Warmachine force. Not to mention Infinity's skirmishes.


Don't be so quick to equate costs. Through smart purchases, I have over 700pts of Infinity. That's the equivalent in gameplay to roughly 4000pts of a 40k army. I paid around $400 for that. You might get a Draigowing for that same cost.

The skirmish games are undeniably cheaper.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

Here's an example I consider. Look at Dreamforge's Leviathan Crusader. Now look at GW's Imperial Knight. The Imperial Knight is shorter, almost completely lacks articulation (the Leviathan is almost fully articulated), cannot hot swap its own weapons due to them sharing parts (the Leviathan is actually designed to swap its weapon arms without even needing magnets), but costs more than the Crusader (admittedly, the IK does have more greeble for those that like that). As the self-proclaimed market leader in model quality and production, GW could, and damn well should, be doing better.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 TheKbob wrote:
 Klerych wrote:
Well, yeah, some armies will be more expensive, some will be cheap. Look at Ogres in Warhammer Fantasy Battles - for, what, 250$ and some ingenuity when it comes to converting you can have a viable 2400pts ETC-ready army. I think Deathwing and Draigowing can be inexpensive too.

The role of a miniature is also a big factor - a 200pt hero mini(say, sm Captain) can cost you as little as 30$ while a squad of 10 vets with a chimera(145pts with meltas) will cost 70$. Even more if you want to use Scion models as grenadier doctrine veterans with their carapace armour.

All in all I start thinking that the hobby is not really that overpriced, aside maybe from the rulebooks(although call me crazy but I think there's nothing wrong with, say, 65$ price tag on a BRB).

While I get that in Infinity the same money will mean much more(or even in Warmachine), it's still the same problem - those games are ten times smaller in battle scale than 40k so it is actually bound to be expensive. It seems a bit abstact that 40k army with lots of models would cost the same amount as a (relatively) small Warmachine force. Not to mention Infinity's skirmishes.


Don't be so quick to equate costs. Through smart purchases, I have over 700pts of Infinity. That's the equivalent in gameplay to roughly 4000pts of a 40k army. I paid around $400 for that. You might get a Draigowing for that same cost.

The skirmish games are undeniably cheaper.


I picked up a 300 point infinity army (the higher end 'standard' size tourney level) for $10 more than the new 7th ed BRB


If you want to argue that of course 40k is more expensive, it has more models, then I'd like to point you to the entierty of Historical gaming, Dreamforge games, Wargames factory, or any one of a dozen other companies.
Some examples (keeping everything in US pricing and RRP for simplicity):
Dreamforge soldiers, 10 multi pose models with tons of options for $18.
Wargames factory soldiers, 18 men with still more options than GW for only $22.
GW's 10, almost entirely static cadians are $29.

It's not an issue of GWs competitors being skirmish games therefore cheaper, GW is simply, objectively, expensive relative to the hobby.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
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Saratoga Springs, NY

 jonolikespie wrote:

If you want to argue that of course 40k is more expensive, it has more models, then I'd like to point you to the entierty of Historical gaming, Dreamforge games, Wargames factory, or any one of a dozen other companies.
Some examples (keeping everything in US pricing and RRP for simplicity):
Dreamforge soldiers, 10 multi pose models with tons of options for $18.
Wargames factory soldiers, 18 men with still more options than GW for only $22.
GW's 10, almost entirely static cadians are $29.

It's not an issue of GWs competitors being skirmish games therefore cheaper, GW is simply, objectively, expensive relative to the hobby.

Well that shouldn't just be a complaint with GW, that should also be a complaint with Privateer Press, Mantic, Corvus Belli, Spartan Games, or any other company that is charging higher prices for similar products. I'm just curious why GW is the one ebreybody hates about this if there are many other companies out there that are charging a similar amount for their models.

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

 dementedwombat wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:

If you want to argue that of course 40k is more expensive, it has more models, then I'd like to point you to the entierty of Historical gaming, Dreamforge games, Wargames factory, or any one of a dozen other companies.
Some examples (keeping everything in US pricing and RRP for simplicity):
Dreamforge soldiers, 10 multi pose models with tons of options for $18.
Wargames factory soldiers, 18 men with still more options than GW for only $22.
GW's 10, almost entirely static cadians are $29.

It's not an issue of GWs competitors being skirmish games therefore cheaper, GW is simply, objectively, expensive relative to the hobby.

Well that shouldn't just be a complaint with GW, that should also be a complaint with Privateer Press, Mantic, Corvus Belli, Spartan Games, or any other company that is charging higher prices for similar products. I'm just curious why GW is the one ebreybody hates about this if there are many other companies out there that are charging a similar amount for their models.


Because the companies you listed (with the exception of Mantic, who does have better prices than GW), do not produce a game that requires more than 20 models to be functionally playable at the level at which it is intended (yes, there are a very few, and usually ineffective, exception to that within 40K).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 01:21:25


"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Angry Chaos Agitator





 dementedwombat wrote:
Well that shouldn't just be a complaint with GW, that should also be a complaint with Privateer Press, Mantic, Corvus Belli, Spartan Games, or any other company that is charging higher prices for similar products. I'm just curious why GW is the one ebreybody hates about this if there are many other companies out there that are charging a similar amount for their models.


Because if I spent $300 on GW products and started an army, I wouldn't even have enough points to even play in most games at my FLGS. Whereas if I spent $300 on any of the other games listed, I would either have a very large force with many options or several different forces.

Because the competition has been dealing with the efforts of starting a wargame, buying the basic essential assets, hiring artists, etc. while over the last twenty years GW has already had the assets in hand. GW should have been able to streamline and sell their miniatures for cheaper than the competition... the very idea that a very small and unheard-of company that doesn't even really have a brand can match and usually be cheaper than GW is ridiculous.

Because 'higher prices for similar products' is blatantly not true. While games that rely on small skirmish-level armies like Warmachines keep model prices high because you don't need many models, any other games that rely on a similar number of miniatures as Warhammer and 40k always, always, always have a far lower price per model. Look at Kings of War, look at Warpath!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 02:09:02


 
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

 jonolikespie wrote:
The skirmish games are undeniably cheaper.

Because of smaller amount of models. Now imagine the cost if you'd be playing Infinity with the amount of models on the table equal to 40k's 2000pts and price of such a collection(although Infinity isn't the best example here, because it's miniatures are designed to be more-expensive-through-being-prettier).

 jonolikespie wrote:
I picked up a 300 point infinity army (the higher end 'standard' size tourney level) for $10 more than the new 7th ed BRB

That's cool, my friend bought 1700pts of all-competitive Necrons(no dead weight models) for ~200$. Anecdotes aside, I meant the 'store' prices dictated by the manufacturers..

 jonolikespie wrote:
If you want to argue that of course 40k is more expensive, it has more models, then I'd like to point you to the entierty of Historical gaming, Dreamforge games, Wargames factory, or any one of a dozen other companies.
Main issue I have with the companies you listed is that their quality varies. Let me explain on your examples:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Some examples (keeping everything in US pricing and RRP for simplicity):
Dreamforge soldiers, 10 multi pose models with tons of options for $18.
Wargames factory soldiers, 18 men with still more options than GW for only $22.
GW's 10, almost entirely static cadians are $29.

See, your big mistake, in my opinion, is bringing up Cadians in the first place. That's a very old kit that has simply been scaled up in price to match their standard for infantry kits in their category. Another thing - Dreamforge's models, while appealing most the times are always absurdly bland and devoid of additional detail that GW slaps all over new models. While it's the design's fault rather than company's issue, I still find them extremely boring as miniatures. As for Wargames Factory.. I'm sorry, but they're much closer to 'regular model kit' manufacturer's quality than modern, proper wargaming. They don't have the amount of detail nor fidelity of it to match GW's recent releases as those greatcoat troopers are just as bland as those old Cadians you brought up and their sculpts are worse, with bad gun design and even slightly more static poses.

 jonolikespie wrote:
It's not an issue of GWs competitors being skirmish games therefore cheaper, GW is simply, objectively, expensive relative to the hobby.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Because if I spent $300 on GW products and started an army, I wouldn't even have enough points to even play in most games at my FLGS. Whereas if I spent $300 on any of the other games listed, I would either have a very large force with many options or several different forces.
I disagree. I see no reason to expect GW to sell armies for it's games cheaper just because the battles are bigger in scale, which requires more models. Show me another 28mm game with such big battles that isn't genuinely a rip-off and a sorry excuse to intentionally make cheaper models for other manufacturer's system. Yes, I'm looking at you, Mantic. As we all know that it's 'games' were just a poor excuse to make WFB-compatible models or cheaper rip-offs of other ones, like Dreadball was for Blood Bowl. I'm sorry, but I find that to be even worse than GW's awful pricing policies.

 Mysterious Pants wrote:
Because 'higher prices for similar products' is blatantly not true. While games that rely on small skirmish-level armies like Warmachines keep model prices high because you don't need many models, any other games that rely on a similar number of miniatures as Warhammer and 40k always, always, always have a far lower price per model. Look at Kings of War, look at Warpath!

It is blatantly true. Very true. Kings of War and Warpath are not a good example as I mentioned earlier when relating to Mantic.


Now don't get me wrong - I am not saying that it'd be bad or stupid of GW to lower the prices, or that their products are not overpriced - that's a whole lot of money for a bit of plastic, but expecting them to price a 2000pts force the same as 50pts of Warmachine while providing transports, tanks, flyers, big squads of infantry and artillery on such a scale is.. I don't know, mentally impaired? Stupid? Their game is bigger, so it will cost more, period. It doesn't have to cost that much more, but let's not be ridiculous, skirmish games WERE MEANT to be cheaper and smaller as an alternative to GW's 'big' products. It's just some companies' modus operandi that can be summed up by "let's make stuff cheaper so people buy it as an alternative" which is how small companies all over the world in any possible industry worked because they couldn't compete with the 'big dogs' in a war of economic attrition. I assure you that if Privateer Press, Mantic or Dreamforge knew that they'd sell as many kits at GW's prices, they would raise them. Simple as that. They're not some kind of benevolent, charity companies - if they could go for equal gain as GW, they would. And it's even easier for some of them to escape players' negative attention for their pricing policies(now I'm talking about proper games such as Warmachine, Infinity and the likes, not Mantic or Dreamforge which are just model kit developers) because they hide behind the "but it's smaller, we have to make money on something!" argument even though they sell their miniatures at the same absurdly high prices as GW, just on smaller scale so it doesn't draw so much attention.

P.s. - and the topic is back in the tracks of "gw pricing bashing". x)

2014's GW Apologist of the Year Award winner.

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Made in au
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Australia

 Klerych wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
The skirmish games are undeniably cheaper.

Because of smaller amount of models. Now imagine the cost if you'd be playing Infinity with the amount of models on the table equal to 40k's 2000pts and price of such a collection(although Infinity isn't the best example here, because it's miniatures are designed to be more-expensive-through-being-prettier).

Irrelevant. Building a force for the points level the game is designed to be played at is the issue here. I could play infinity with 50 models but it would take forever and frankly be a bad game at that point. Similarly you can play 40k at 40,000 points, but you don't regularly, do you?
 Klerych wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
I picked up a 300 point infinity army (the higher end 'standard' size tourney level) for $10 more than the new 7th ed BRB

That's cool, my friend bought 1700pts of all-competitive Necrons(no dead weight models) for ~200$. Anecdotes aside, I meant the 'store' prices dictated by the manufacturers..

I bought that from a store. Full retail would be $20 more than the new BRB
 Klerych wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
If you want to argue that of course 40k is more expensive, it has more models, then I'd like to point you to the entierty of Historical gaming, Dreamforge games, Wargames factory, or any one of a dozen other companies.
Main issue I have with the companies you listed is that their quality varies. Let me explain on your examples:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Some examples (keeping everything in US pricing and RRP for simplicity):
Dreamforge soldiers, 10 multi pose models with tons of options for $18.
Wargames factory soldiers, 18 men with still more options than GW for only $22.
GW's 10, almost entirely static cadians are $29.
See, your big mistake, in my opinion, is bringing up Cadians in the first place. That's a very old kit that has simply been scaled up in price to match their standard for infantry kits in their category. Another thing - Dreamforge's models, while appealing most the times are always absurdly bland and devoid of additional detail that GW slaps all over new models. While it's the design's fault rather than company's issue, I still find them extremely boring as miniatures. As for Wargames Factory.. I'm sorry, but they're much closer to 'regular model kit' manufacturer's quality than modern, proper wargaming. They don't have the amount of detail nor fidelity of it to match GW's recent releases as those greatcoat troopers are just as bland as those old Cadians you brought up and their sculpts are worse, with bad gun design and even slightly more static poses.

Being an old kit means nothing. It is the most basic kit for one of the more popular armies and it is still on sale.
Whether or not you like the look of Dreamforge stuff is similarly irrelevant, they are not technically bad models, they are good quality. If you prefer models with more bling on then that's great, but more bling does not make a model objectively better (I personaly like the look of the newer tac squad box but find the sternguard, if build with only things from their kit, have way too much bling).
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'regular model kit' quality, does all plastic multi part (including GW) not fall under this category? But anyway the important part here is that it very much seemed like you where saying GW is only more expensive because it needs more models. I am giving you an example here of models half the price that, unless you can show me actual proof to the contrary, I believe are more than half the quality of those Cadians. Therefore GW is expensive because they are expansive, not because they need more models.

 Klerych wrote:
Now don't get me wrong - I am not saying that it'd be bad or stupid of GW to lower the prices, or that their products are not overpriced - that's a whole lot of money for a bit of plastic, but expecting them to price a 2000pts force the same as 50pts of Warmachine while providing transports, tanks, flyers, big squads of infantry and artillery on such a scale is.. I don't know, mentally impaired? Stupid? Their game is bigger, so it will cost more, period. It doesn't have to cost that much more, but let's not be ridiculous, skirmish games WERE MEANT to be cheaper and smaller as an alternative to GW's 'big' products. It's just some companies' modus operandi that can be summed up by "let's make stuff cheaper so people buy it as an alternative" which is how small companies all over the world in any possible industry worked because they couldn't compete with the 'big dogs' in a war of economic attrition. I assure you that if Privateer Press, Mantic or Dreamforge knew that they'd sell as many kits at GW's prices, they would raise them. Simple as that. They're not some kind of benevolent, charity companies - if they could go for equal gain as GW, they would. And it's even easier for some of them to escape players' negative attention for their pricing policies(now I'm talking about proper games such as Warmachine, Infinity and the likes, not Mantic or Dreamforge which are just model kit developers) because they hide behind the "but it's smaller, we have to make money on something!" argument even though they sell their miniatures at the same absurdly high prices as GW, just on smaller scale so it doesn't draw so much attention.

P.s. - and the topic is back in the tracks of "gw pricing bashing". x)


There are plenty of historical games out there that rival or surpass 40k in size but cost half as much though. That's the thing you seem to be missing.
You also seem to be under the impression we don't want GW to be making money, we just want our models as cheap as possible. I'd personally love to throw a few thousand dollars at GW but I won't because I currently do not believe I'd be getting my money's worth. If they had better rules and more competitive (not better, just in line with the competition) there wouldn't be a problem.
And lastly, I don't believe I have seen anyone saying "it's smaller, we have to make money on something". Infinity models are all metal and undeniably technically much better sculpts than GW yet an infinity character costs less than a finecast character from GW. PP I have less experience with but I know they charge about half as much for a dreadnought sized model as GW do (although from a quick glance I will admit plastic infantry do seem to cost a little bit more model for model than those cadians).

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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that's one of the things i like about orks. a visit to the clearance section at hobby lobby, 20 or 25 bucks, and i can cobble together a battlewagon.
   
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One of the issues I see from GW is no realy great starter point, the battle forces seem to be hit or miss good start points.
The rule book is a small fortune and then a codex.
All of that is over 300$
Well less than a recommended start in infinity or warmachine :(

When it comes to prices between 40k and warmachine it realy depends on the kit, I was able to find a 10model kit for 40k more than a 10 model kit for warmachine in about 15 seconds.
But even then I think they are close in price to be Irelivent.

What ups the price for 40k is how they price there extras
Farseer is 19$
Warcaster for cygnar 12$
Not a big difference but it consistantly seems to be small difference to like sized models, growing larger the larger a model.
There are irregularity off corse
Where it realy gets bad is in the books

40k book here is 114$
Warmachine rule book is 30$
Codex for 40k 74$
Army book for warmachine 35$

So comparable pricing 40k is more expencive as a consistant but with some more specific instances is not.
But to build a equal model army for 40k here will often still run more money than a warmachine one.
With all comparisons you need to sit back and look at a lot more than specifcly model to model.
   
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 Klerych wrote:
1:35 scale artillery that looks like Earthshaker Cannon emplacements from Forge World and industrial buildings(for Warmachine and 40k Hive environments) and... boy, were those kits expensive!



That's probably because 1/35 scale corresponds to 50mm, whilst 40k is 28mm. So something in 1:35 scale would be moderately larger than the equivalent object in 40k scale, hence higher prices for bigger kits[not counting if these 1:35 scale kits have resin/PE parts that push the price up]

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 jonolikespie wrote:

Irrelevant. Building a force for the points level the game is designed to be played at is the issue here. I could play infinity with 50 models but it would take forever and frankly be a bad game at that point. Similarly you can play 40k at 40,000 points, but you don't regularly, do you?

Relevant. Would you expect a game that plays with the amount of minis equalling 40,000pts to be the same price as regular 40k? That's what I mean by cost scaling up with game size. You expect 40k's 50 models to be the same price as Infinity's 15 and [imaginary 40,000pts equivalent X game's] 200 models? I don't think so. 40k is bigger so it's more expensive, that's common sense.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I bought that from a store. Full retail would be $20 more than the new BRB

Fair enough then, I agree that it's a nice price tag for a playable force. How many minis did it contain, by the way?

 jonolikespie wrote:
Being an old kit means nothing. It is the most basic kit for one of the more popular armies and it is still on sale.

It means a lot, actually, because it's price is only dictated by GW's current infantry kit category pricing. From the dawn of time GW's blisters had letter markings on them as the miniatures were set in their respective price categories.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Whether or not you like the look of Dreamforge stuff is similarly irrelevant, they are not technically bad models, they are good quality. If you prefer models with more bling on then that's great, but more bling does not make a model objectively better (I personaly like the look of the newer tac squad box but find the sternguard, if build with only things from their kit, have way too much bling).

Sure, the sculpt quality is okay, but if a miniature has more ornaments and overall more fine detail then by default the sculpt 'value' is higher. A heavily ornamented box will be considered of better quality than a regular wooden crate.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean buy 'regular model kit' quality, does all plastic multi part (including GW) not fall under this category?
I might be using the wrong term, english is not my primary language. By 'regular model kit' I mean those typical WWII/modern plastic kits from manufacturers such as Zvezda, Revell and the likes. Not wargaming miniatures kits - just planes, tanks, the most regular thing that comes to your mind when someone says "hobbyist scale model". Hope that clears it out a little.

 jonolikespie wrote:
But anyway the important part here is that it very much seemed like you where saying GW is only more expensive because it needs more models. I am giving you an example here of models half the price that, unless you can show me actual proof to the contrary, I believe are more than half the quality of those Cadians. Therefore GW is expensive because they are expansive, not because they need more models.
I am not saying that the models couldn't nor that they shouldn't be a bit cheaper, especially in case of outdated sculpts of those poor Cadians. I am saying that those models you listed are deliberately sold as 'cheaper substitutes' by companies whose main goal while designing them was explicitly "let's make something in scale of [40k/WFB] and sell it cheaper so people buy". That was their modus operandi, that was their business plan, as simple as that. If GW drops prices to match theirs, then guess what - those companies will drop prices too because that's what they do to stay afloat!


 jonolikespie wrote:
There are plenty of historical games out there that rival or surpass 40k in size but cost half as much though. That's the thing you seem to be missing.

Do they have IP to back them up? What about sculpt quality and amount of detail? Remember that competition in historical games is a bit different than that among the made-up franchises because if someone doesn't like your WWII game then he's free to make his own using identical models(because they all utilize historical designs) while one can't just go "I will create my own 40k! With hookers and blackjack!" so they can't compete in that field. Historical games are also cheaper because they're aimed at much different audience in my opinion. Most regular historical games players I've seen were history enthusiasts, most often age 30 and up and they're less likely to spend bigger money on a miniature kit than a younger player will be to spend on a fantasy/sci-fi one for one of the established IPs.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You also seem to be under the impression we don't want GW to be making money, we just want our models as cheap as possible. I'd personally love to throw a few thousand dollars at GW but I won't because I currently do not believe I'd be getting my money's worth.
I cannot argue with that - everyone has his own view on the prices and his own budget.

 jonolikespie wrote:
If they had better rules and more competitive (not better, just in line with the competition) there wouldn't be a problem.

While I agree that they're not on par with competition, I can't say "there wouldn't be a problem". Even if GW magically fixes everything wrong with 40k in this edition, re-releases well-balanced Codexes and drops mini prices there still will be craploads of whiners. Imagine what'd happen if they decided to re-do the Eldar codex to get rid of broken crap and fix it for good of all. A lot of Eldar players would rage about the life span of their beloved Codex that suddenly turns out to be awesome and that it didn't need any nerfs.

 jonolikespie wrote:
And lastly, I don't believe I have seen anyone saying "it's smaller, we have to make money on something". Infinity models are all metal and undeniably technically much better sculpts than GW yet an infinity character costs less than a finecast character from GW. PP I have less experience with but I know they charge about half as much for a dreadnought sized model as GW do (although from a quick glance I will admit plastic infantry do seem to cost a little bit more model for model than those cadians).

I was mostly saying that all wargaming models are overpriced for what they are. GW's unit kits could be easily sold at 15$ and heroes at 10 or even 5$.. but it also applies to Infinity, Warmachine, Hordes, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions and other games. All the current prices are results of only one thing - the relation between supply and demand from the community. GW is bad for drilling the prices so much but other companies aren't much better, quickly adapting to them and raising their own prices because they know people will still buy it. Unless people vote with their wallets, that is. When demand drops, supply has to change. So far everyone in the industry is happy that they convinced people that the hobby is some kind of exclusive, elite thing that should be expensive.

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Better example would be 1:48 scale kits like Hobbyboss KV-1 tank at $25 retail compared to a Russ at $49.50.
The kit comes with all kinds of extras as well as etched brass components.
Gets worse if you compare to Australian price of a Russ at $86.
The HobbyBoss kit is still under $30 here BTW.

Also bigger kits get worse, Pegasus just released the T2 hunter-killer for $60 at 12" long it's almost double the length of the Lord of skulls at 7", which is a $160 kit.

I payed $44 for the Revell AT-AT, it stands twice the height of a knight at $140.
   
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 Klerych wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
The skirmish games are undeniably cheaper.

Because of smaller amount of models. Now imagine the cost if you'd be playing Infinity with the amount of models on the table equal to 40k's 2000pts and price of such a collection(although Infinity isn't the best example here, because it's miniatures are designed to be more-expensive-through-being-prettier).


That's like saying Warhammer Fantasy is cheap because imagine if all you needed was one hero and a regiment box. It's a strawman argument because Games Workshop would not make the entry point to Warhammer Fantasy so low.

Quantity of models is a very conscious decision when designing a game regarding overall price entry point. Games Workshop have chosen to price themselves obscenely high by not only setting the model prices as high as they possibly feel the market can bear, but also inflating the required model count to play a standard sized game. Corvus Belli have decided to charge slightly more per model than you'd pay for a 10 model plastic kit from GW, but designed a game where you only ever need those 10 models.

That makes playing the game cheaper than Warhammer. It's not an invention by the Infinity playing masses to make the game sound more appealing. It's simply a fact. You pay about 1/10 of the price for a standard sized Infinity army plus a few additional models for options than you do a single standard 40k army.

Model count is irrelevant other than Corvus Belli deliberately designed a game requireing less models to reduce the price entry point, and Games Workshop did not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/25 09:54:20


 
   
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 Klerych wrote:
Fair enough then, I agree that it's a nice price tag for a playable force. How many minis did it contain, by the way?

14, so on the larger size I guess.

 Klerych wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
Being an old kit means nothing. It is the most basic kit for one of the more popular armies and it is still on sale.

It means a lot, actually, because it's price is only dictated by GW's current infantry kit category pricing. From the dawn of time GW's blisters had letter markings on them as the miniatures were set in their respective price categories.

I have to disagree here. GW are still selling those cadians. Whether they are outdated or not is irrelevant as they are still on sale and they are still the primary means of creating an imperial guard army. If you want to comepare Dreamforge or Wargames factory models to any other basic infantry though that's fine. They still work out as a hell of a lot cheaper for 10 multi part plastic models.

 Klerych wrote:
Sure, the sculpt quality is okay, but if a miniature has more ornaments and overall more fine detail then by default the sculpt 'value' is higher. A heavily ornamented box will be considered of better quality than a regular wooden crate.

If the wooden crate is sturdy and a proper cube it is worth a lot more than a heavily ornamented box that can't close properly because it isn't square and will shatter if you drop it.

You like models with lots of bling. I think a lot of recent GW models have too much bling. This is a personal preference.
The Wargames factory models might not be able to have as good detail as GW, but Dreamforge certainly does have the same quality of details even if they have less of those details. Having less doesn't devalue them, some people like that look better.

 Klerych wrote:
I am not saying that the models couldn't nor that they shouldn't be a bit cheaper, especially in case of outdated sculpts of those poor Cadians. I am saying that those models you listed are deliberately sold as 'cheaper substitutes' by companies whose main goal while designing them was explicitly "let's make something in scale of [40k/WFB] and sell it cheaper so people buy". That was their modus operandi, that was their business plan, as simple as that. If GW drops prices to match theirs, then guess what - those companies will drop prices too because that's what they do to stay afloat!

Except most of these companies aren't making substitute models for 40k. Dreamforge games are making their own game. Those Wargames factory shock troopers I'll give you are mostly just there to be IG, but there are quite a few other Wargames factory historical models priced the same that have nothing to do with 40k and prove that lots of decent quality models don't need to cost a lot of money.
I have something like 120 vikings from them which I found to be equal quality to a lot of GW sculpts but only cost me.. $180 or so I believe.

 Klerych wrote:
Do they have IP to back them up? What about sculpt quality and amount of detail? Remember that competition in historical games is a bit different than that among the made-up franchises because if someone doesn't like your WWII game then he's free to make his own using identical models(because they all utilize historical designs) while one can't just go "I will create my own 40k! With hookers and blackjack!" so they can't compete in that field. Historical games are also cheaper because they're aimed at much different audience in my opinion. Most regular historical games players I've seen were history enthusiasts, most often age 30 and up and they're less likely to spend bigger money on a miniature kit than a younger player will be to spend on a fantasy/sci-fi one for one of the established IPs.
Those games don't have protectable IP to back them up, no, and I am sure that helps drive the price down. But they are still companies proving that high model count does not mean a game has to be expensive.

 Klerych wrote:
I was mostly saying that all wargaming models are overpriced for what they are. GW's unit kits could be easily sold at 15$ and heroes at 10 or even 5$.. but it also applies to Infinity, Warmachine, Hordes, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions and other games. All the current prices are results of only one thing - the relation between supply and demand from the community. GW is bad for drilling the prices so much but other companies aren't much better, quickly adapting to them and raising their own prices because they know people will still buy it. Unless people vote with their wallets, that is. When demand drops, supply has to change. So far everyone in the industry is happy that they convinced people that the hobby is some kind of exclusive, elite thing that should be expensive.

I think the important thing here is that, and this is entirely my opinion, your mileage may vary, ect, but I don't feel ripped off when I buy infinity, or X wing, or dystopian wars, or anything else. I happy wasted hundreds of dollars a month on this hobby but it is only really GW who leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when I look at their prices because I personally don't see the value.

I know that is entirely personal but I am also quite sure I am not the only one to have expressed that opinion on these forums.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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But that's not the point here! Read my posts, mate. I don't argue that entry point for 40k is acceptable, I'm just saying that a bigger game will cost more and that's a fact. You can't expect GW to price their 2000pts army just like Warmachine's 50pts or Infinity's whatever is the regular high format. You can't expect GW to sell three times as many models along with vehicles for three times less, that's just stupid!

Right now a full unit of mono-pose, non-customizable Stormblade Infantry with 3 unit attachments(just 3 special weapons normally sold separately) costs 50$ here. And that's 9 miniatures. Sure, it makes up a part of your force, but looking at the box as a separate thing the price is still ridiculous as hell. Not to mention the Warmachine colossals which aren't that fancy, have no customizability(can only be glued in slightly different poses and even that is very limited), are smaller than Imperial Knight and have godawful mould lines that took me an hour to scrap off my Stormwall. All that for similar price - although they seem to be much more expensive in Poland, might have something to do with PP's weird, apparently hostile attitude towards my country because in most online stores a colossal costs 150$ while a knight can be found for as low as 100$. Oh well.

Infinity is very different in that you only need around ten models on the field. Comparing it to 40k in terms of price is just.. wow. Blows my mind. It's like saying that you could buy an awesome catboat for much less than a big yacht and then expect the yacht to be of same price, because the small sailboat is cheaper! Like.. size doesn't matter, right? It actually does, doesn't it? No?

Also let's not involve Australia in this conversation - the price policies there are different from the rest of the world so that's not an argument.

P.s. - I was talking about 1:35 models because they're a bit more to scale with the chunkiness of heroic 28mm. Most 40k miniatures look ridiculous on some smaller scale buildings or with vehicles, especially that the base also contributes to the model's height.

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If you substitute non-GW models for playing 40K you can greatly reduce the price of an army.

If you play historicals you can get a much larger army -- needed for mass battle rules -- for the same amount of money.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you substitute non-GW models for playing 40K you can greatly reduce the price of an army.

If you play historicals you can get a much larger army -- needed for mass battle rules -- for the same amount of money.



How many 28mm historicals with the amount of detail of 40k minis are out there with bigger armies? I'm asking out of pure curiosity. With ground, flying vehicles and stuff, right?

 jonolikespie wrote:
If the wooden crate is sturdy and a proper cube it is worth a lot more than a heavily ornamented box that can't close properly because it isn't square and will shatter if you drop it.

Kinda pointless to say as I was talking about visuals. Do you suggest that 40k >miniatures< should be compared to "a heavily ornamented box that can't close properly because it isn't square and will shatter if you drop it"? If yes, I think I'll give up. If not, that was redundant.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You like models with lots of bling. I think a lot of recent GW models have too much bling. This is a personal preference.
The Wargames factory models might not be able to have as good detail as GW, but Dreamforge certainly does have the same quality of details even if they have less of those details. Having less doesn't devalue them, some people like that look better.
I guess I can agree with that. It's all preferences, I just find those 'flashier', more intricate models to be better personally.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Except most of these companies aren't making substitute models for 40k. Dreamforge games are making their own game.
I don't know, maybe you're right but I can't look at the Leviathan and it's accessories with a straight face and say that they aren't an obvious 40k substituting when I see the Beowulf Artillery, Nova Cannon and Ripper Saw arms. I find that to be even worse than GW's stupid pricing policy as it's obvious Knight weaponry substitute. I just find that morally wrong just like Mantic's big 'cheaper GW substitutes' idea. Of course it's nice to give players an alternative like that - some people dig the Leviathan model and probably would want to use it as a Knight, but pretending it to not be a blatant substitute is... silly.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I know that is entirely personal but I am also quite sure I am not the only one to have expressed that opinion on these forums.
Maybe it'll come out surprising but.. I'm happy for you. Really. I'm genuinely happy for you, because most of the community is unhappy with literally everything. It's just sad that GW is the only thing they can ever blame. To me GW is somewhat justified with their games being somewhat expensive due to their sizes because they try to compromise quality, pretty models(look at a WFB Wood or Dark Elf army) and quantity of miniatures on the table to represent epic clashes. I am somewhat convinced that holding a sci-fi/fantasy IP is also a big factor when it comes to pricing stuff. Especially when you have no license issues with making models of historical designs due to them being.. well, historical.

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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Here's an example I consider. Look at Dreamforge's Leviathan Crusader. Now look at GW's Imperial Knight. The Imperial Knight is shorter, almost completely lacks articulation (the Leviathan is almost fully articulated), cannot hot swap its own weapons due to them sharing parts (the Leviathan is actually designed to swap its weapon arms without even needing magnets), but costs more than the Crusader (admittedly, the IK does have more greeble for those that like that). As the self-proclaimed market leader in model quality and production, GW could, and damn well should, be doing better.

It is obviously your opinion that the former is better than the latter. Personally I think the Imperial Knight looks a lot better, and frankly a lot more 40k what with the heraldry and steam-punkness that the Dreamforge model is lacking in. In general with models you get what you pay for, you can get much worse models that GW for a lot cheaper, or the same quality or better for the same or higher price. Claiming that 40k is more expensive because it's bigger is just stupid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 11:17:10


 
   
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I was responding purely to your argument that I quoted. but since you were disrespectful enough to dismiss my argument as 'stuff', I'll do the same and welcome you to my super exclusive ignore list.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 11:18:47


 
   
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 Klerych wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
If you substitute non-GW models for playing 40K you can greatly reduce the price of an army.

If you play historicals you can get a much larger army -- needed for mass battle rules -- for the same amount of money.



How many 28mm historicals with the amount of detail of 40k minis are out there with bigger armies? I'm asking out of pure curiosity. With ground, flying vehicles and stuff, right?



Warlord games produces vehicles in resin/metal, I think they have better detail even though they cost less than GW.

Compare the BA Panther Zimmeret, which costs £25, to the 40k Hydra, which costs £35.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/25 11:26:48


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 -Loki- wrote:


I was responding purely to your argument that I quoted. but since you were disrespectful enough to dismiss my argument as 'stuff', I'll do the same and welcome you to my super exclusive ignore list.




But.. 0.o I only used "stuff" to not have to litter the thread with too big quotes when I related to everything you wrote.. I actually addressed everything you said.. Jesus...

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