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 Orlanth wrote:

I even showed you examples of what is categorically British culture.

If thats the best that you could do then you just proved my point for me, thanks.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

4oursword wrote:Would that we could have avoided poetry to the same degree. There were 7 other topics in the anthology, and we got conflict :l

As an aside, Albatross, A Clockwork Orange can be studied at A-Level English, along with a lot of other books on the theme of dystopia. Good luck getting GCSE students to read them and understand them, though.

The way our education system is laid out, you don't need to understand them

You just need to memorise word-for-word how the exam board understands them.

Seriously, every time you see a question in an exam that contains the words 'your opinion' they actually mean 'our opinion', anything that deviates from the marking sheet is seen as incorrect, so if you actually form your own understanding of the messages and themes in a text, you will suffer as a result, but blindly regurgitate what's on the syllabus and your golden.

This does seem to be what i've gone through at both A level and GCSE. A level wasn't so bad about it but you did have certain points they wanted you to cover...

 Manchu wrote:
Of Mice And Men and To Kill A Mockingbird are not that great. It's a pity they are foisted on American children but we have a need for low-hanging fruit like these and The [not so] Great Gatsby. There certainly is no good reason that children outside of the US should be made to read them.

A thousand French Knights Break Wind in your general direction. To Kill a Mockingbird is refined awesomesauce. I don't think Brits would get it though. But if you're from the South, from an earlier time, there are a lot of themes there.

Agreed on Gatsby. I hated that book and just wanted every single person in it to die in a fire in front of me.

I think Brits should have to read Moby Dick. This would be epic payback for burning Washington.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

I even showed you examples of what is categorically British culture.

If thats the best that you could do then you just proved my point for me, thanks.

Well its not the best I could do, I mentioned that this was what I could come up with from the top of my head. I could trfy and write a more in depth reply but there is no need. When the evidence for something is so obvious that you can run off several answers from the top of ones head then that is evidence enough.
Here we are again highlighted in bold.

 Orlanth wrote:

British culture, examples from the top of my head:
OK for a start British culture is the mix of the variant constituent cultures of the UK brought together by a common society and language. As the UK has had an enormous cultural influence on the world, particularly from English culture but also from the British culture as an offshoot of the Union. English culture developing into British culture includes several of the most popular sports played in the world today including rugby, rounders (baseball), football and cricket. The English cultural tradition of trial by jury became a part of British culture through the Union and then globalised.
National culture can also often be defined by diet and culinary choices, the UK has a largely unified culinary palette which can be considered British rather than from the constituent nation states.
When looking at architecture as cultural iconograpghy there is a lot which is distinctly British also. In particular the ironworks of the early Industrial Revolution, which happened first in the UK. While originally technically English there was heavy Scottish influence in that many of the prominent engineers were Scottish and many of the great works were built in Scotland. One can argue that the works of Brunel could symbolise an aspect of British culture.
I will stop there, but the list does not.

Seeing a Britiash culture has shaped the world as it is today, probably more so than any other. It is ignorant in the extreme to assume it doesnt exist. For starters there would be no US culture without British culture, its a direct descendent culture. Are you going to try and claim the Americans have no culture either?

So, you have made no attempt to give any evidence to suggest that the above arer not examples of British culture.

Unless that is not the point you are proving, because you aren't intentionally proving any point, because you haven't forwarded an actual logical argument.

There is one point you are proving, quite unintentionally.
By persisting with your denial of the existence of such a thing as British culture, despite having lived and been educated here, and despite examples being shown to you; you do provide walking evidence that some of the youth of today have been successfully programmed, and have passed through the education system with no clear sense of national identity.

I can sympathise that you don't actually understand how important and alarming that is because frankly you have been brainwashed, and in all likelihood the degeneration of education from the last two decades has much to do with this.
It is also to be expected that you don't recognise you have been brainwashed and will fight the label, because that is part of the nature of brainwashing.
Wash, rinse, and spin. With extra, extra, spin.
That is not really your fault, but you can do something about it. Find someone from a generation older and ask them what they thought of their national identity. You can then find out for yourself.
It Britain truly had no culture, it would have shown long long ago, so if you look for one, you will find it quickly enough.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

4oursword wrote:Would that we could have avoided poetry to the same degree. There were 7 other topics in the anthology, and we got conflict :l

As an aside, Albatross, A Clockwork Orange can be studied at A-Level English, along with a lot of other books on the theme of dystopia. Good luck getting GCSE students to read them and understand them, though.

The way our education system is laid out, you don't need to understand them

You just need to memorise word-for-word how the exam board understands them.

Seriously, every time you see a question in an exam that contains the words 'your opinion' they actually mean 'our opinion', anything that deviates from the marking sheet is seen as incorrect, so if you actually form your own understanding of the messages and themes in a text, you will suffer as a result, but blindly regurgitate what's on the syllabus and your golden.

True dat. The amount of people in my French class who just memorized their stuff word-for-word with no understanding of the meaning was depressing.

 4oursword wrote:

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

4oursword wrote:Would that we could have avoided poetry to the same degree. There were 7 other topics in the anthology, and we got conflict :l

As an aside, Albatross, A Clockwork Orange can be studied at A-Level English, along with a lot of other books on the theme of dystopia. Good luck getting GCSE students to read them and understand them, though.

The way our education system is laid out, you don't need to understand them

You just need to memorise word-for-word how the exam board understands them.

Seriously, every time you see a question in an exam that contains the words 'your opinion' they actually mean 'our opinion', anything that deviates from the marking sheet is seen as incorrect, so if you actually form your own understanding of the messages and themes in a text, you will suffer as a result, but blindly regurgitate what's on the syllabus and your golden.

True dat. The amount of people in my French class who just memorized their stuff word-for-word with no understanding of the meaning was depressing.

As someone who did French and German at GCSE last year, I can confirm that no understanding of the language is necessary to pass.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

I even showed you examples of what is categorically British culture.

If thats the best that you could do then you just proved my point for me, thanks.

First define culture.

You can certainly point to things like cricket, sandwiches, Midsomer Murders and London Pride beer and say these are elements of British culture.

Surely modern British culture also includes ice hockey, The Wire, curries, M&S sushi and Australian wine.

I was taught a lot of foreign literature when I was at school before most of you were born, at a good traditional private prep school that wasn't being interfered with by Labour Party apparatchiks, I might add.

Perhaps learning about foreign literature is part of British culture.

Interfered with by the Labour party? Did this happen in the... err... 70's?



Surely British culture is just absorbing the best/things we like most from others. Specifically commonwealth countries. Since we don't have an Empire anymore it's kind of spread further. Then again I don't particularly feel part of any culture. I think that perhaps that modern Britain doesn't have it's own culture. It's homogeneous and that's a good thing. A culture outwith a culture. I'm sure somebody can explain what I'm attempting to say better.

I don't think it particularly matters what that nationality of the author is. As long as the kids come out with a decent education, that should be what's most important. Perhaps British authors are enough of a resource to fulfil that task. I wouldn't really think of it as enforcing British culture though. I think Gove's proposals are stupid, but the idea if done correctly might not be bad. We've had a good few posts about potential authors that could be good choices.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Its the other way round I think. You proved his point.

Orlanth claims that British culture, history and tradition has been marginalised and discouraged by a political agenda, and provided plenty of examples to back up his opinion.

In response, you simply scoff and make ad hominem insults of "tin foil hat" and "thats bollocks" and "theres no such thing as British culture".

Every post you make reminds me why you're on my ignore list.

If you think that using painfully generic examples of 'British Culture', especially if he has to resort to literal ancient history, proved his point then you are very much mistaken. Its always nice to be on someones ignore list but I have to ask, why are you responding to me?


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 Medium of Death wrote:

I see someone reads Viz

Actually a generic example of culture does prove a point.

It proves there is an underlying common culture in Britain.

There may be regional variations on the basic model, but its still there.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually a generic example of culture does prove a point.

Even if those points are common across countries throughout the world?

 Palindrome wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually a generic example of culture does prove a point.

Even if those points are common across countries throughout the world?

Hmmmm, country conquers much of the known world.

Much of world has common culture points.

Common culture points originate from country which conquered much of the known world.

Its not hard to draw a conclusion

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its not hard to draw a conclusion

Apparently its that English 17th century English culture is alive and well, oh wait........

Specific cultures are far too porous and mutable to pin down with anything but inadequate stereotypes which is why any notion of teaching 'British culture' is a fools errand.

British culture is being generally miserable because it's raining and grumbling about something else to pass the time.


OT: Of Mice And Men is a great book to have on the list of texts because it is not a very challenging book. That means it is suitable for lower set kids who might struggle with a longer, more complicated text. It allows them to read within their own range which means you can then test their understanding of the themes discussed and the techniques used.

Whereas if you give those same kids a much harder, longer text (such as an Austen novel) they will then be completely limited to reciting what their teacher taught them to say.

But then again, that's probably what Gove wants. A nation of badly educated people who can only recite what those in positions of power have told them to say.

I never said anyone one way or the other about teaching British Culture. I simply agree that one exists. You have been asserting that it doesn't, which is demonstrably false.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You have been asserting that it doesn't, which is demonstrably false.

While I think that proving that it exists is an impossibility. Orlanth is the one making the accusation that British culture is no longer being taught in schools.

Is culture taught in any school? That closest my school has gotten to that is US history.

Culture is taught by everything around you. That includes school, but that's only one factor.

If schools change what they are teaching they are changing the culture they are teaching. Is that good or bad? That's a matter of personal opinion.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Is culture taught in any school? That closest my school has gotten to that is US history.

Culture doesn't need to be taught, it pervades the whole of the society in which one lives.

When people ask for culture to be taught in school it is because they don't like the current culture and wish to change it to the culture that they would like.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
First define culture.

In fairness one can't without being trite. However this will apply to all cultures.

Let us take the example given of France.
It is impossible to deny the French have their own culture, but it is also hard to formally define it.

One can only give examples of it, and as warned before said examples when given as a list are a trite answer.
So for example French culture is 'defined' (badly) by:
Berets, long stick loaves, strings of onions, street mime, accordions, Eiffel Tower, garlic , escargots, frogs legs and other than those good food.
If I carry on a definition of a culture' is at best going to be two dimensional and at worst a racial stereotype.
What this exercise can do is not so much define culture as provide examples of it so that we know it exists.

Your mistake is to look at an art like a science, seeking to define culture as a subset. At least your comment is honestly intended, and I, like you, would want to define British culture.
However the lack of a clear definition is deliberately misconstrued as evidence of its non-existence, and proported as such by those who wish to deceive.
Hence why those who want to deny our culture are taught to bring this up as an 'argument'.
Said argument is cetegorically invalid as no national culture can be given a clear formal definition, because human populations and their respective artforms don't fit into neat labeled boxes. Yet we still know that culture exists.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

You can certainly point to things like cricket, sandwiches, Midsomer Murders and London Pride beer and say these are elements of British culture.

Ok your on.

Though you should really start with fish n' chips and football.

Most cultural markers are gastronomic, e.g. stars and stripes and blueberry pie, not that most Americans actually eat blueberry pie.
the other major indicator are sport preferences.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

I was taught a lot of foreign literature when I was at school before most of you were born, at a good traditional private prep school that wasn't being interfered with by Labour Party apparatchiks, I might add.

Broadly similar educational background to myself then.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Perhaps learning about foreign literature is part of British culture.

Every trading nation will trade culture, and the British are most definitely a trading nation being a maritime power.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Surely modern British culture also includes ice hockey, The Wire, curries, M&S sushi and Australian wine.

Less so, you could add curry because the UK eats a lot of it, you could definitely include Tikka Masala because its IIRc the nations most eaten dish, the recipe was also developed in the UK by Indian immigrants.
Australian wine is just a price choice, you could just as easily say Chilean or South African wines also.

Point here is this is where some would prefer to say this means anything can be potentially British culture, and isn't really British culture and therefore there is no British culture.
This rhetoric is where the ideology of there being no British culture spawns from. What those who spout it airbrush over is that this could be said of every culture on the planet, even such places with isolationist outlooks and very distinctive mores because all cultures are interlinked by our globalization.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But then again, that's probably what Gove wants. A nation of badly educated people who can only recite what those in positions of power have told them to say.

Actually that is what we currently have got, and Gove wants to undo it.
I wont assume noble motives from him, but it is in Tory party interests to undo New Labourised indoctrination, I do not think that the current government would actually be able to get away with indoctrinating people the other way.
Its a bit off that many people are saying this is what them evil Tories are doing, when the facts show the current policy is for a broader rather than a suspicious narrowing of the curriculum, which is what we had/have and would be needed to indoctrinate.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Is culture taught in any school? That closest my school has gotten to that is US history.

Culture doesn't need to be taught, it pervades the whole of the society in which one lives.

When people ask for culture to be taught in school it is because they don't like the current culture and wish to change it to the culture that they would like.

Culture is taught in school, the world over I might add, because it enbeds the next generation in society.
Culture is taught, it isnt just observeed, and culture is also to be participated in.

Let us take this to our earliest roots, in Tribalism.

Our national identities are just that our tribal bondings that we as humans develop. It is natural and beneficial to develop those bondings as it builds a former stronger society, this has been as true now as it was when trbies knew that in order to guard the warterhole they had to stand together with spears against the next tribe.

Culture has always been educational and participatory and it is mentally healthy to encourage children to participate.
This again is the same in a national curriculum, team sports, and cultural activities, as it is through tribal ritual around the campfire.

You might wonder if the changes are part of a political evolution then, but no there is no moving beyond our 'primitive past', as it's not primitive, it's just us, besides deceiving the tribe to become secure as big chief is part of the same old system. So the 'progressives' certainly haven't moved on and are in no way enlightened as the type of polltics that does something as damaging as messing with a stable established culture for personal power gain is as backward and crass as it comes, no matter how it's dressed up.


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 Palindrome wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Its the other way round I think. You proved his point.

Orlanth claims that British culture, history and tradition has been marginalised and discouraged by a political agenda, and provided plenty of examples to back up his opinion.

In response, you simply scoff and make ad hominem insults of "tin foil hat" and "thats bollocks" and "theres no such thing as British culture".

Every post you make reminds me why you're on my ignore list.

If you think that using painfully generic examples of 'British Culture', especially if he has to resort to literal ancient history, proved his point then you are very much mistaken. Its always nice to be on someones ignore list but I have to ask, why are you responding to me?

Your contributions have passed into comedy.

First, the painfully generic examples I had mentioned several times that giving examples was trite, but still were useful as a pointer, as the examples can be given and are around today the culture thereofre exists.
Second, all examples of a national culture are by definition generic.
Third, as for the "resort to literal ancient history" that is what got me to respond to you. Palindrome, Ancient history, really? The only example I gave that was of a specific time was Brunel, who liveed from 1806 to 1859. Ancient history refers to events and peoples up to and including the Romans. You really thought Brunel was ancient history? Honest.
Last, maybe he was responding to you because even if you are on the ignore list, your posts will be visible if quoted by someone else.

text removed.
Reds8n

 Orlanth wrote:
You really thought Brunel was ancient history? Honest.

Nope, trial by jury which was a Greek innovation in the first place.

Do you guys read Twain or Vonnegut at all?

I read Huckleberry Finn in school (I think).

 Palindrome wrote:
I read Huckleberry Finn in school (I think).

See, I'd recommend Twain over Steinbeck if you were looking at a school age book, and if you were reading Steinbeck is recommend east of Eden or grapes of wrath over Of mice and Men 8 days a week. They're superior novels. They're just significantly longer.

Sometimes I think Of Mice and Men gets put on school reading lists more because of its length than it's quality.

And I'd put Hemingway over Steinbeck on my just reads for American lit. I feel like Sun Also Rises would be a really appropriate book for the European classroom....

I can't really remember what we had to read in school but I think the only US books were Huckleberry Fin and Death of a Salesman. I only did English up to Standard grade though.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
You really thought Brunel was ancient history? Honest.

Nope, trial by jury which was a Greek innovation in the first place.

It wasn't a continuous cultural connection as only individual city states had trial by jury and they in time were conquered and got Roman law. Hellenic culture was largely extinguished and remained buried for centuies, modern Greek culture has mostly different origins. Byzantium was Greek speaking, but was the Rome of the East, not a new Athens.

The modern trial by jury cultural original comes from the Anglo Saxons. This is where there is the distinction between Common Law and Roman Law, most of Europe's judicial systems broadly descend from Roman law. The Uk and nations based on UK culture such as the US, Canada, Australia, India and much of Africa etc have a judicial system based on English 'Common law', which became British law and British culture as the Scots adopted it also while independent.

It's not ancient, its medieval, like football, but like football its a part of a British culture that is anything but thin, are by no means a painfully weak addition to human culture, though they are generic. You got that bit right.

In any event none of this is medieval or ancient. Football is ongoing trial by jury is ongoing. The only cultural example I used was Brunel, Brunels works are of the past, evwen though they are in use today. But are clearly recent enough and broad enough to enter the common psyche. So much also the 2012 Olympics heavily featured Brunel as a symbol of host nation culture.

You going to challenge the rest of my post, or the earlier ones? Go ahead, I can take it.

 Orlanth wrote:

You going to challenge the rest of my post, or the earlier ones? Go ahead, I can take it.

What would be the point of doing a line by line refutation of your posts? I'm not in the mood to inflate my post count and I have already posted about twice as many times in this thread than I should have.

You simply can't take things that are common throughout the world and claim that they somehow constitute 'British' culture, its as easy as that. They may have originated in the British Isles, they may even have at one time been the sole preserve of parts of the UK but that's largely immaterial.

The UK is comprised of 4 distinct national groups which are further subdivided along preexisting or even imported cultural lines, how on earth can you claim that there is a single unifying culture that all these groups can claim as their own? In addition to that how can you claim that culture can be taught? You can teach a stereotypical parody of what is deemed to be 'culture' but that is all it will ever be.

What would you all recommend for school reading

 Jihadin wrote:
What would you all recommend for school reading

From what I remember from school; porn, lots of porn. Of course that doesn't really involve reading.

I'm not really sure to be honest, most of the 'classic' books that I have read I have found to be disappointing.