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 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Only select a single Herald, same as any other HQ choice.

How do I have permission to ignore the restrictions on Heralds, stating may be included in a Primary Detachment, and not stating they may be included in any other detachment?

Because there isn't a restriction. It doesn't say they may only be included in Primaries.

Read it again, here it is "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds".
Where does that say they can only be included in Primaries? It doesn't.
But if they are then each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds.

I have permission to include "up to four Heralds" in my Primary Detachment. I have no permission to include Heralds in any other type of detachment. If you think I do, please quote the rules giving that permission. (Use quotations.)

If we read it your way, then you can have an Unbound Army like this:
1xFarseer, Warlord (Eldar Primary)
Infinity x Heralds (not Primary)
--but we cannot have an Unbound army like this:
Infinity x Heralds (Daemon Primary)
because I'm only allowed up to four Heralds in a Primary.

My reading doesn't create the shenanigans that yours does, and also closes a loophole, all while abiding by the letter of the rules.

Yes, you can have infinity Heralds in a Chaos Daemons Primary Unbound List. All the damn rule allows you to do is to take more than one Herald in a single HQ FoC slot. In Unbound FoC isn't a requirement, therefore this exemption doesn't even come up, therefore defaulting to the Unbound rules from the BRB.

LinkXx wrote:

Yes, you can have infinity Heralds in a Chaos Daemons Primary Unbound List. All the damn rule allows you to do is to take more than one Herald in a single HQ FoC slot. In Unbound FoC isn't a requirement, therefore this exemption doesn't even come up, therefore defaulting to the Unbound rules from the BRB.

Again, Not what the rule says. There are two parts to the rule, and these two parts are in two separate sentences.
First, it says that you may take 0-4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment.
Secondly, it says that these Heralds take only one HQ slot.
I don't think anyone's arguing about the second point, so let's just stick with the first.

And while Unbound armies do not have FOC limits, there IS a limit on Heralds. If Daemons is your Primary Detachment (and yes, Unbound armies still have a Primary Detachment), then you may take "up to four." That means you may take four or less, and not more than four.

Edit: Poll added. Vote!

I'm tired of arguing you. Your entire argument is based on misinterpreting the text and there is no way to convice you because you just keep misinterpreting all the our the point sin the same incorrect way

You are misreading everything

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

LinkXx wrote:

Yes, you can have infinity Heralds in a Chaos Daemons Primary Unbound List. All the damn rule allows you to do is to take more than one Herald in a single HQ FoC slot. In Unbound FoC isn't a requirement, therefore this exemption doesn't even come up, therefore defaulting to the Unbound rules from the BRB.

Again, Not what the rule says. There are two parts to the rule, and these two parts are in two separate sentences.
First, it says that you may take 0-4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment.
Secondly, it says that these Heralds take only one HQ slot.
I don't think anyone's arguing about the second point, so let's just stick with the first.

And while Unbound armies do not have FOC limits, there IS a limit on Heralds. If Daemons is your Primary Detachment (and yes, Unbound armies still have a Primary Detachment), then you may take "up to four." That means you may take four or less, and not more than four.

Edit: Poll added. Vote!

At this point I think it's been worded just about every which way possible, so if you don't want to accept RAW, fine, but I'll give it one last shot. Think of this way:

1) The BRB says I can take an allied detachment with an HQ choice.
2) The Daemons codex contains HQ choices.
3) I take a Herald of Khorne as my allied HQ choice because the BRB says I can.
4) The codex has a box explaining what to do with Heralds in your primary detachment.
5) Daemons are not my primary detachment, so this box does not apply to my army.
6) Nothing about 5) restricts 1)

Edited for spelling

I really cannot understand why no one else is providing rules quotes, with page references, for their arguments. Please do so. I don't want to address things that may or may not be based on reading the rules. Even if you think I'm misinterpreting the rules, at least I am sharing with you what I've read (by using quotations).

I'm glad no one is claiming that a GK list may take infinity Warbands without having any Inquisitors in the list. But surely, everyone can also see the exact parallel to Heralds that this draws. It's spelled out in one of my earlier posts, which no one has yet adequately addressed.

 ZultanQ wrote:
5) Daemons are not my primary detachment, so this box does not apply to my army.

I don't know where you're getting this idea from. Nowhere do the rules say you may ignore things in your codex. All of your codex applies to your army.
Let's look at Inquisitorial Warbands, since there's such a close parallel. It is wrong to say, "I may take Warbands as Elite choices if I don't have an Inquisitor." It is right to say, "I may only take one Warband per Inquisitor in my army." (Coteaz is an exception.)
The wording is so precisely similar, we can easily compare this to Heralds. It is wrong to say, "I may take Heralds as HQ choices even if I don't have a Daemon Primary Detachment." It is right to say, "I may only take Heralds in a Daemon Primary Detachment."
If you disagree with that last sentence, please first provide rules explaining why you think you may take a Warband without taking an Inquisitor.

At this point I think it's been worded just about every which way possible, so if you don't want to accept RAW, fine

I can just as easily say that YOU are the one who is not accepting RAW. Watch: why are you refusing to accept RAW?
It's pretty unhelpful to make that accusation. I don't see how it would further an understanding of the rules.

And you are wrong (again): it has not been worded in "every which way possible." No one except me has given some good, solid rules quotes to back up their position.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I really cannot understand why no one else is providing rules quotes, with page references, for their arguments. Please do so. I don't want to address things that may or may not be based on reading the rules. Even if you think I'm misinterpreting the rules, at least I am sharing with you what I've read (by using quotations).

The only reference you need is the "Heralds of Chaos" entry on pg 94 of the codex. Everything else you seem to want is superfluous and is not needed to prove you wrong yet you are either too stupid or too stubborn to not think so.

Just learn how to read. "May" is not the same as "Only".

As above.

Exactly the same argument was given, and debunked, in sixth.

You have permission to take an hq choice. It states it, right there in the allies FOC

Now find where that permission is removed. Page and para. The permission, an additional one, does not function as a restriction.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Just learn how to read. "May" is not the same as "Only".

Personal insults are not helpful to the conversation.

In a situation where I have many restrictions, and can only do anything with specific permission, then yes, "may" is the same as "only" unless otherwise specified.
For example, using the metaphor you provided, the Warden says, "Each lunch in your day you may drink a glass of milk." (English is obviously not this fellow's first language.) I also must ask, "May I have soda for lunch?" Because at this point, he's given me specific permission for MILK, not for soda. I may not assume that I can pick soda instead.

Elric - you have permission in the ally FOC. Cite where this is removed

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Just learn how to read. "May" is not the same as "Only".

Personal insults are not helpful to the conversation.

In a situation where I have many restrictions, and can only do anything with specific permission, then yes, "may" is the same as "only" unless otherwise specified.
For example, using the metaphor you provided, the Warden says, "Each lunch in your day you may drink a glass of milk." (English is obviously not this fellow's first language.) I also must ask, "May I have soda for lunch?" Because at this point, he's given me specific permission for MILK, not for soda. I may not assume that I can pick soda instead.

You're right that it doesn't give permission but it doesn't deny soda either because it doesn't say so. We get permission to take heralds from the fact HQs are a choice in an allied detachment (I can't give you a page reference because i have an epub of it so stop whining about it). The inquisitor stuff doesn't apply because they don't use a normal force org chart because they use their own detachment so stop bringing it up.

We have the permission, so stop saying we don't

Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

So does this mean I can take Creed, Kell, Straken, and Nork Deddog without Command Squads? I mean, they are listed in the HQ section, and they don't SAY I can't take them outside of the command squads.

Just so you know, that was being facetious. It is completely obvious that the topic creator is correct, and that the intent was 4 Heralds limit per detachment, and the Heralds of Chaos Box shows you how you take those units.

Seriously guys, stop trying to loophole stuff, and start focusing on RAI to help comprehend what the written word means.

Is there any restrictions listed to take those characters?

If there is, you must fulfill the requirements to take them.

Heralds have no restrictions, only an additional rule that affects primary detachments.

 Happyjew wrote:
Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

Actually they are. There's a list of what counts as a 'herald' and the list includes all the named heralds of the various gods. Beyond that, the box appears before the individual listings, specifcally encompasses all the listsings that follow it, and contains no language that suggests that the 1-4 for 1 HQ is some sort of alternative selection method.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see any reason (RAW aside) that an allied detachment or second CA detachment shouldn't be able to include a single Herald as an HQ, but the new rules and definition of primary detachment make things sticky.

 Happyjew wrote:
Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

That''s actually a really good point, this section could definitely use a FAQ

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

Actually they are. There's a list of what counts as a 'herald' and the list includes all the named heralds of the various gods. Beyond that, the box appears before the individual listings, specifcally encompasses all the listsings that follow it, and contains no language that suggests that the 1-4 for 1 HQ is some sort of alternative selection method.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see any reason (RAW aside) that an allied detachment or second CA detachment shouldn't be able to include a single Herald as an HQ, but the new rules and definition of primary detachment make things sticky.

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

 Happyjew wrote:

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

Um yeah, I thought that's what I said... Didn't I? Anyway, that was really just in response to your "how we take X" query - you can take them because they're listed in the text box that governs Heralds (at least if you're on that side of the argumentative fence).

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

Um yeah, I thought that's what I said... Didn't I? Anyway, that was really just in response to your "how we take X" query - you can take them because they're listed in the text box that governs Heralds (at least if you're on that side of the argumentative fence).

They actually aren't in the text box, but mixed in with the character descriptions, which leads credence to the text box not describing how you take the following entries.

I think the vote clearly shows what side everyone is on, with only a single person voting Elric's way and that was most likely Elric himself. Next to the 16 that disagree.

As far as permissions go, you are granted the same permission to take Heralds as a single HQ as you are to take any of the entries in the HQ list. The core rules allow this.

The part you're confused on is the separate entry in HQ called "Heralds of Chaos", which allows up to 4 Heralds in your primary detachment as a single HQ slot. Here's the part the you seem to not be understanding:

- "Heralds of Chaos" is itself an HQ slot option!

The restrictions applied by "Heralds of Chaos" only apply if you select "Heralds of Chaos" as your HQ unit. In such a case, then yes you would be required to have them in a primary detachment only and up to four selected. However, nothing prohibits taking an individual Herald for an HQ slot because you are not selecting the "Heralds of Chaos" option.

Only the "Heralds of Chaos" HQ choice limits you to a primary detachment. All other HQ choices follow the standard rules of the Force Org chart.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos."

Note the term: Each .... in your Army...
How many Primary Detachments allowed in an Army: One

Each... in your Armies... would be okay. That would mean over a few different armies and it makes sense. But it does not say that.

Resolution: Wait for the FAQ.

Yep. So, outside of your primary you get ...why look, as many as you can select according to the FOC you are using states you can field

Permission granted. Cite denial. Oh, and this isn't a 7th ed thing, exactly the same question was raised, and debunked, in 6th

Leerjawise wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

Um yeah, I thought that's what I said... Didn't I? Anyway, that was really just in response to your "how we take X" query - you can take them because they're listed in the text box that governs Heralds (at least if you're on that side of the argumentative fence).

They actually aren't in the text box, but mixed in with the character descriptions, which leads credence to the text box not describing how you take the following entries.

I'm looking right at the text box right now and most certainly does include all the named heralds. Perhaps this is a book version issue?

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

Um yeah, I thought that's what I said... Didn't I? Anyway, that was really just in response to your "how we take X" query - you can take them because they're listed in the text box that governs Heralds (at least if you're on that side of the argumentative fence).

They actually aren't in the text box, but mixed in with the character descriptions, which leads credence to the text box not describing how you take the following entries.

I'm looking right at the text box right now and most certainly does include all the named heralds. Perhaps this is a book version issue?

Wait, your copy includes the Blue Scribes, and the Masque of Slaanesh, in the bulleted list of Heralds in the box detailing the 1-4 rule?

 Happyjew wrote:


Wait, your copy includes the Blue Scribes, and the Masque of Slaanesh, in the bulleted list of Heralds in the box detailing the 1-4 rule?

Hah, basic reading comprehension fail on my part. No, both those characters are missing, which leaves you with an entirely valid point. Mea culpa.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Re-read the list. It includes Heralds of each god, as well as Karnak, Skulltaker, the Changling, and the named Nurgle Herald (whose name eludes me at the moment.

Um yeah, I thought that's what I said... Didn't I? Anyway, that was really just in response to your "how we take X" query - you can take them because they're listed in the text box that governs Heralds (at least if you're on that side of the argumentative fence).

They actually aren't in the text box, but mixed in with the character descriptions, which leads credence to the text box not describing how you take the following entries.

I'm looking right at the text box right now and most certainly does include all the named heralds. Perhaps this is a book version issue?

Not the four named heralds, the two in question are the Blue Scribes and the Masque of Slaanesh

*Ninja'd*

 Happyjew wrote:
Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

Okay Happy, this is a valid point.

Now, please explain to me, if the lack of the 'only' in the Heralds box allows you to take Heralds outside of that restriction, why can't I take Ghost Knights without Mordrak or Command Squads without a SM Commander? Neither of those boxes contain an only either.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Elric. Please explain how one takes the Blue Scribes or Masque of Slaanesh.

Both of these choices are mixed in with the rest of the Heralds, but are not included in the list of what Heralds one can take in a Primary Detachment of 1-4.

Okay Happy, this is a valid point.

Now, please explain to me, if the lack of the 'only' in the Heralds box allows you to take Heralds outside of that restriction, why can't I take Ghost Knights without Mordrak or Command Squads without a SM Commander? Neither of those boxes contain an only either.

There is a difference between Heralds and Command Squads/Warlocks.

Warlocks has a restriction within the army list entry. Same as Command Squads/Honour Guard.

Heralds as a whole have a special permission to take 1-4 in a primary detachment, however, as the entries are separate from that rule, it is not a rule that is always in effect.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

LinkXx wrote:

Yes, you can have infinity Heralds in a Chaos Daemons Primary Unbound List. All the damn rule allows you to do is to take more than one Herald in a single HQ FoC slot. In Unbound FoC isn't a requirement, therefore this exemption doesn't even come up, therefore defaulting to the Unbound rules from the BRB.

Again, Not what the rule says. There are two parts to the rule, and these two parts are in two separate sentences.
First, it says that you may take 0-4 Heralds in a Primary Detachment.
Secondly, it says that these Heralds take only one HQ slot.
I don't think anyone's arguing about the second point, so let's just stick with the first.

And while Unbound armies do not have FOC limits, there IS a limit on Heralds. If Daemons is your Primary Detachment (and yes, Unbound armies still have a Primary Detachment), then you may take "up to four." That means you may take four or less, and not more than four.

Edit: Poll added. Vote!

Eric.......I posted the following.......on page one...

From the rule book, 7th edition, pg 117, top right corner.

"If you use the Unbound method, then once you chose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction (pg 118) as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes. Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive command benefits." -emphasis, mine

Ya I think this one is good and done. The information has been given, if not received.