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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 15:27:03
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Auspicious Skink Shaman
Louth, Ireland
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MWHistorian wrote:If I was an independent seller, I'd be doing everything I could to promote other games like X-wing, Warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc. More options, the more chances are someone will find something they like. I'd get tournaments going for each game and have my employees always ready with an army for a demo game.
The only issue is that there are so many systems that are 'not- 40k' so might be locally clustered. Malifaux and batman are really hard to get a game of compared to 40k.
My FLGS has said that GW stuff brings people in which is why it's important to have even if he doesn't get a whole lot of margin on it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 15:59:54
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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Soteks Prophet wrote: MWHistorian wrote:If I was an independent seller, I'd be doing everything I could to promote other games like X-wing, Warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc. More options, the more chances are someone will find something they like. I'd get tournaments going for each game and have my employees always ready with an army for a demo game.
The only issue is that there are so many systems that are 'not- 40k' so might be locally clustered. Malifaux and batman are really hard to get a game of compared to 40k.
My FLGS has said that GW stuff brings people in which is why it's important to have even if he doesn't get a whole lot of margin on it.
A lot of the guys who play warmachine don't sell their 40k armies for this very reason. It's easier to get in games if you play 40k. If you go up to warmachine night, you usually see a couple 40k games going on but you don't see the inverse on 40k nights in my experience.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 16:15:36
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Cosmic Joe
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dereksatkinson wrote: Soteks Prophet wrote: MWHistorian wrote:If I was an independent seller, I'd be doing everything I could to promote other games like X-wing, Warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc. More options, the more chances are someone will find something they like. I'd get tournaments going for each game and have my employees always ready with an army for a demo game.
The only issue is that there are so many systems that are 'not- 40k' so might be locally clustered. Malifaux and batman are really hard to get a game of compared to 40k.
My FLGS has said that GW stuff brings people in which is why it's important to have even if he doesn't get a whole lot of margin on it.
A lot of the guys who play warmachine don't sell their 40k armies for this very reason. It's easier to get in games if you play 40k. If you go up to warmachine night, you usually see a couple 40k games going on but you don't see the inverse on 40k nights in my experience.
That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 16:17:18
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
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dereksatkinson wrote: Soteks Prophet wrote: MWHistorian wrote:If I was an independent seller, I'd be doing everything I could to promote other games like X-wing, Warmachine, Infinity, Dust, etc. More options, the more chances are someone will find something they like. I'd get tournaments going for each game and have my employees always ready with an army for a demo game.
The only issue is that there are so many systems that are 'not- 40k' so might be locally clustered. Malifaux and batman are really hard to get a game of compared to 40k.
My FLGS has said that GW stuff brings people in which is why it's important to have even if he doesn't get a whole lot of margin on it.
A lot of the guys who play warmachine don't sell their 40k armies for this very reason. It's easier to get in games if you play 40k. If you go up to warmachine night, you usually see a couple 40k games going on but you don't see the inverse on 40k nights in my experience.
Counter anecdote: over here GW games are practically dead. The much lauded "last 6th edition tournament" for 40k managed to grab a record breaking 6 players (and that really is record breaking since I think it was the first 40k tournament in close to 4 months that wasn't cancelled due to lack of participants). The WHFB tournament this month wasn't so lucky and was once again cancelled due to lack of participation.
So to sum it up, yes, ubiquity is probably the only reason why 40k keeps going in allot of places, but even that is no longer true in many others.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 16:17:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 16:33:48
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Even though GW is obviously digging it's own grave, it is still hilarious to see people's reactions. People are using a single hobby shop as a reference point for the entire state of the business or trying to use their "economy knowledge" to predict the future. It's obvious that there are things going in behind the scenes that might paint a different picture...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 16:44:39
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Bronzefists42 wrote:Even though GW is obviously digging it's own grave, it is still hilarious to see people's reactions. People are using a single hobby shop as a reference point for the entire state of the business or trying to use their "economy knowledge" to predict the future. It's obvious that there are things going in behind the scenes that might paint a different picture...
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but when it's the same story over and over, it starts pointing towards a trend.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 16:44:42
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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MWHistorian wrote:That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
Because you'd get better margins... Damn greed shop owners.
PhantomViper wrote:So to sum it up, yes, ubiquity is probably the only reason why 40k keeps going in allot of places, but even that is no longer true in many others.
I've kind of seen it go in cycles honestly.. Games will get hot,, the for some strange reason, in a few years they are no longer on the shelves.
I remember when confrontation was big and everyone was talking about how Rackham was going to take the place of warhammer fantasy. They even went public back in 2005 and it took less than 5 years for them to go under due to the economic downturn. They overextended themselves and went under even though management was doing exactly what the players wanted.. imagine that.. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bronzefists42 wrote:Even though GW is obviously digging it's own grave, it is still hilarious to see people's reactions. People are using a single hobby shop as a reference point for the entire state of the business or trying to use their "economy knowledge" to predict the future. It's obvious that there are things going in behind the scenes that might paint a different picture...
The economy has secular and cyclical trends... That's kind of the whole basis for economics.
You follow the trend and look for historical precedence to get an idea where you are in the cycle. I never said I had a crystal ball that was capable of "predicting the future". I just believe the economy is going to be a major headwind for GW going forward. I don't see how that is controversial.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 16:53:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 17:02:16
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Cosmic Joe
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dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
Because you'd get better margins... Damn greed shop owners.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not even sure what your your argument is. Perhaps being less snarky and more clear would help?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 17:02:39
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 17:27:43
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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MWHistorian wrote:
I'm not even sure what your your argument is. Perhaps being less snarky and more clear would help?
There are two active posters on my ignore list. Dereksatkinson is one of them and for very good reason. Don't feed the troll.
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The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 17:33:52
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Stoic Grail Knight
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dereksatkinson wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:The idea behind Apocalypse was to sell larger armies and particularly larger models such as the Baneblade. There are plenty of people who would like to add a large model to their collection, the success of the Forge World kits showed this.
Silence! This doesn't fit the narrative being spun by the collective group think. GW is only one thing..
Uh, what? I'm pretty sure that's what everyone thinks the purpose of Apocalypse is/was. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen people really complain about Apocalypse. It offers products that a certain percentage of players may want to engage in at different times, selectively.
However, people *do* have a problem with Escalation. That throws away the whole optional content style of Apocalypse and replaces it with "Those big models are for all games, guys. It's not really optional."
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 17:57:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 17:47:02
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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MWHistorian wrote:dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
Because you'd get better margins... Damn greed shop owners.
I'm not even sure what your your argument is. Perhaps being less snarky and more clear would help?
 I don't see how that response was snarky.
You pointed out that GW products are relatively low margin vs other games. It's in the game store owner's best interest to promote the game that makes them the most money for THEM. Same reason why gamestore owners sell magic cards..
My "greedy game shop owners" comment was clearly sarcastic. People who run game stores don't do it to make a lot of money. Automatically Appended Next Post: Palindrome wrote:
There are two active posters on my ignore list. Dereksatkinson is one of them and for very good reason. Don't feed the troll.
In my PMs i've had about a half dozen of these..
Saw in [ur=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596875.page]this[/url] thread how you basically got kicked out for having too much knowledge so that everyone else could just sit around recycling the same old butthurt to each other and complain about prices/facebook. Have to say I'm pretty shocked, though not that surprised.
Just so you know there are some people on dakka who do appreciate posts that are factual and draw upon personal experiences and impartial sources, we don't all like to sit around whinging all day. Keep at it, fella
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 17:48:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 17:58:55
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Lol, I've had PMs regarding you, my interactions with you and the threads concerned.
Let's just say the opinions expressed were different.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:05:05
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Fixture of Dakka
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Gentlemen, please take your personal feud elsewhere.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:08:16
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Cosmic Joe
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dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
Because you'd get better margins... Damn greed shop owners.
I'm not even sure what your your argument is. Perhaps being less snarky and more clear would help?
 I don't see how that response was snarky.
You pointed out that GW products are relatively low margin vs other games. It's in the game store owner's best interest to promote the game that makes them the most money for THEM. Same reason why gamestore owners sell magic cards..
My "greedy game shop owners" comment was clearly sarcastic. People who run game stores don't do it to make a lot of money.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palindrome wrote:
There are two active posters on my ignore list. Dereksatkinson is one of them and for very good reason. Don't feed the troll.
In my PMs i've had about a half dozen of these..
Saw in [ur=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596875.page]this[/url] thread how you basically got kicked out for having too much knowledge so that everyone else could just sit around recycling the same old butthurt to each other and complain about prices/facebook. Have to say I'm pretty shocked, though not that surprised.
Just so you know there are some people on dakka who do appreciate posts that are factual and draw upon personal experiences and impartial sources, we don't all like to sit around whinging all day. Keep at it, fella
But that's not at all what I was saying. Did you even read my post? I said that as a shopkeeper, I would encourage the other games like Warmachine, infinity, DZ, etc over 40k in case GW goes under. I never said anything about greedy shop owners or profit margins. Where in the world did you get that idea?
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:12:50
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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There's no feud this end, I assure you, in fact I'm on the record defending Derek to other posters, but given we do have a history and I'm familiar with a number of his debating habits, appeals to authority like this aren't unusual, so I've just tried to balance it out by bringing my perspective to the table too.
But he does have certificates you know.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:13:53
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Drakhun
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MWHistorian wrote:dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:dereksatkinson wrote: MWHistorian wrote:That's the ENTIRE point of my post, If I were a store owner, I'd be actively working to change that.
Because you'd get better margins... Damn greed shop owners.
I'm not even sure what your your argument is. Perhaps being less snarky and more clear would help?
 I don't see how that response was snarky.
You pointed out that GW products are relatively low margin vs other games. It's in the game store owner's best interest to promote the game that makes them the most money for THEM. Same reason why gamestore owners sell magic cards..
My "greedy game shop owners" comment was clearly sarcastic. People who run game stores don't do it to make a lot of money.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palindrome wrote:
There are two active posters on my ignore list. Dereksatkinson is one of them and for very good reason. Don't feed the troll.
In my PMs i've had about a half dozen of these..
Saw in [ur=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596875.page]this[/url] thread how you basically got kicked out for having too much knowledge so that everyone else could just sit around recycling the same old butthurt to each other and complain about prices/facebook. Have to say I'm pretty shocked, though not that surprised.
Just so you know there are some people on dakka who do appreciate posts that are factual and draw upon personal experiences and impartial sources, we don't all like to sit around whinging all day. Keep at it, fella
But that's not at all what I was saying. Did you even read my post? I said that as a shopkeeper, I would encourage the other games like Warmachine, infinity, DZ, etc over 40k in case GW goes under. I never said anything about greedy shop owners or profit margins. Where in the world did you get that idea?
Dude, dont feed the trolls.Derek is the first person I have ever put on ignore in my years of hanging out here at DakkaDakka. Its just not worth the it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:19:39
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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MWHistorian wrote:But that's not at all what I was saying. Did you even read my post? I said that as a shopkeeper, I would encourage the other games like Warmachine, infinity, DZ, etc over 40k in case GW goes under. I never said anything about greedy shop owners or profit margins. Where in the world did you get that idea?
No need to be hostile. I wasn't putting words into your mouth.
MWHistorian wrote:My FLGS has said that GW stuff brings people in which is why it's important to have even if he doesn't get a whole lot of margin on it.
From a gamestore owner's perspective, you want the high margin products selling so you can pay the rent and keep the lights on. So you spent $100 in his store, he'd prefer it be on warmachine over gamesworkshop. That's why so many game stores constantly hold magic nights and tournaments which is a high margin business. My JOKE was that those store owners are being "greedy" by wanting to stay in business.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 18:20:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:36:27
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Cosmic Joe
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That's not my quote.(the second one.)
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 18:44:38
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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ah.. I see that now.
It was a quote inside another quote
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 18:45:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 19:40:57
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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dereksatkinson wrote:I remember when confrontation was big and everyone was talking about how Rackham was going to take the place of warhammer fantasy. They even went public back in 2005 and it took less than 5 years for them to go under due to the economic downturn. They overextended themselves and went under even though management was doing exactly what the players wanted.. imagine that.. You think the players wanted the abandonment of high end metals for a 100% shift into pre-painted plastics? That it was the "economic downturn" that ended Rackham? Automatically Appended Next Post: dereksatkinson wrote:From a gamestore owner's perspective, you want the high margin products selling so you can pay the rent and keep the lights on. So you spent $100 in his store, he'd prefer it be on warmachine over gamesworkshop. That's why so many game stores constantly hold magic nights and tournaments which is a high margin business. The other thing to remember about non- GW products is that the store can often negotiate a better trade discount with their distributor when they do more volume with that distributor. So every dollar of non- GW sold makes the store more money, but also has the potential to make every other sale of non- GW products more profitable. I know one local store ended up negotiating a full 5% better trade discount once they got their MTG business going after they ditched 40k on Friday nights for Friday Night Magic. This ended up making their board game sales more profitable. It made their WM/H and Infinity sales more profitable. Everything they got from that distributor was now more profitable because their buying power got their discount improved when splitting it into GW prevented that. Automatically Appended Next Post: jonolikespie wrote:Didn't they at some point (maybe like 5+ years ago now) call all their trade partners freeloaders? Anyone selling their product without having a physical storefront was just mooching off of the GW stores who bring in new customers and create the community, the online stores just steal sales. I believe that was the beginning of the decline that led to people in Oz and Canada no longer being able to just buy the stuff from the US and get it mailed for a significant discount. They haven't been able to lock down eBay, so if Oz and Canada people really want GW stuff, there's a good chance you'll find it on eBay from the US at a good price. The ironic thing about considering online sales freeloaders because they don't provide what a physical location does, is that GW doesn't provide those things anymore either. Everything has been slashed away. The local GW store here actually charges people to learn how to paint (they have a $80 "learn the hobby" program). There's no policy ensuring the ability to game at a local GW and many of the single employees have decided to slash gaming completely and others have so limited table space that after they keep their demo tables clear, there might be room for one game and likely a small one. All the while GW is trying to hypocritically get independent store customers to buy from GW's online store with their limited edition and direct only items. And they're still pulling stock shenanigans with preorders. One local store that still sells GW got a third of his preorders for 7th edition while the local GW has them filling up the shelves. I honestly wonder what their goal is in that. I mean, a kid's not going to buy a 4k point army to play the huge games GW keeps encouraging. So what do they actually think they're going to end up with? It really does sound like a pump and dump scam - sell the boxed set to kids, sell a squad or three of Space Marines, and move on to the next sucker. Do they really see 14-18 year old kids turning up with a large army to play at the GW store (since they think the hobby revolves around the GW store)?
I think the rules are entirely an idea used to sell miniatures. If they can get the idea of a nice big game with a table full of painted models into the head of a 15 year old, then all his birthday and holiday money and money from odd jobs and babysitting can go towards chasing that goal before he finally quits without ever reaching it. It's like when financial advisors estimate how much money you'll need to retire or how much life insurance you'll need for your families needs in order to get mutual fund and life insurance sales. heartserenade wrote:Holy gak that blew my mind. BECAUSE YOU'RE CORRECT. Next evolution: to be more profitable, GW will turn into a multi-level marketing scam. The reason multi-level marketing continues to survive is that the recruits are the sales targets. You tell them that if they're going to effectively sell the product, then they need to believe in it and thus use it themselves. The recruits who end up making money in MLM aren't the ones who can sell product, but the ones that can sell the dream and recruit new recruits as their customers. The other piece of the puzzle for MLM is that the commissions need to be terrible and the margins bad to make room for overrides. So if you wanted to do a GW MLM, you'd have to start everyone at a discount that is worse than what you can already get through an online discounter. So trade sales would have to be completely scrapped first. Given that GW pretty much relies entirely on word of mouth, their independent trade customers, and people happening across their store thinking they can get video games there, I don't think a switch to MLM would actually be that bad for them. It's a new channel. I wonder how many 40k players would sign up to sell GW to their friends in exchange for a small discount that grows with every new recruit they make. And on top of running gaming parties at people's houses and trying to get everyone they know playing, they'd also get the joy of attending sales meetings with dreamers wearing baggy suits that don't fit chanting "recruit! recruit! recruit!" EDIT: My personal experience with MLM is in helping some friends get out of it. They were in a couple of the financial services MLMs selling life insurance and mutual funds. They were literally getting 25% of the commission for the same sale that an independent financial advisor would get. And half that what a typical life insurance sales person would get for the same sales. They ended up eventually shifting over to being independant and now get four times the money for the same sales. It's shocking how much the MLM pyramid structure sucks out of the revenues of the participants. So it'd probably be a natural fit for GW. .
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/06/04 20:37:03
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 20:26:32
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Oberstleutnant
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frozenwastes wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:Didn't they at some point (maybe like 5+ years ago now) call all their trade partners freeloaders? Anyone selling their product without having a physical storefront was just mooching off of the GW stores who bring in new customers and create the community, the online stores just steal sales. I believe that was the beginning of the decline that led to people in Oz and Canada no longer being able to just buy the stuff from the US and get it mailed for a significant discount.
They haven't been able to lock down eBay, so if Oz and Canada people really want GW stuff, there's a good chance you'll find it on eBay from the US at a good price.
We don't need to use ebay and pay the extra fees involved though that is an option. Discount Games Store in the US sells to Aussies and Canadians at 20+% off US RRP and repackages items to greatly reduce shipping cost. Submit orders via email and pay with paypal and get sweet plastic goodness a couple weeks later at half of Aussie RRP. It's ridiculous that we have to do this though, and it increases the cost-value disparity with chinaforge so very few legit products come out ahead down here. Bundles and some basic troops being about it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 20:34:34
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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I've dealt with them before. They're great. I figured if I recommended eBay, they'd be found pretty fast. Here's their non-eBay web store. .
http://www.vendio.com/stores/Discount_Games_Store
I tend to get more Warmachine & Hordes stuff from them lately, but if someone is in Australia or Canada and planning on sticking with GW stuff, I'd highly recommend them.
Something is wrong with regional pricing when I can get something to my door for less than the local store can get it on their trade discount.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 20:35:34
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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frozenwastes wrote:I think the rules are entirely an idea used to sell miniatures. If they can get the idea of a nice big game with a table full of painted models into the head of a 15 year old, then all his birthday and holiday money and money from odd jobs and babysitting can go towards chasing that goal before he finally quits without ever reaching it. It's like when financial advisors estimate how much money you'll need to retire or how much life insurance you'll need for your families needs in order to get mutual fund and life insurance sales. So it's basically a scam. Sad part is that I would not doubt this at all, and their goal isn't really to get you to play anything, just have the illusion of playing so you keep buying all the big toys. In fact... that scarily ties in to things like Escalation - throw out some garbage rules for fielding big expensive kits, and who cares if nobody wants to play with them, because you already bought a $50 book and spend a few hundred dollars on a couple Baneblades or Knights or Titans because GW told you that you can field it. Same thing with Unbound... trick kids into buying a bunch of crap only to find later that hey nobody wants to play with a mishmash of kits. But GW already got their money. That's insanely brilliant, but I doubt that GW is smart enough to perpetrate a conjob like that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 20:36:27
- Wayne
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 20:46:02
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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I can't call it a scam. Just like I can't call the numbers a financial sales agent comes up with a scam either. If you get sold on the idea of needing 2 million come retirement and then put a savings and investment plan in place to get you there, that's not a scam. That's just good commissions for the sales person. The only way it would be a scam is if you didn't get what you were promised. Like if the insurance didn't pay out when you died or something.
Similarly you can actually play the game at these higher points levels. And the lower ones. It's not a great or even good game, but it actually has rules and will actually play out.
The rules are a marketing idea, but they still technically are also a game. Even if GW doesn't care if you ever play it at full size as long as you buy miniatures to get there.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 21:02:23
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Yes but there are people who do want to play Unbound with a mishmash of figures or ApocEscalation with giant tanks and stuff. Just not everyone.
The key question is how pissed off are the "just not everyones" and if they desert the system what damage will that do in terms of lost sales and reduced recruitment by word of mouth?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/04 22:08:47
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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I am enjoying playing Infinity with my 40K figures.
Different scales and all but my group of six has only bought two copies of the 7th edition rules.
I am thinking of converting my 40K to Victory Decision or StarGrunt rather than play 7th edition.
Make of that what you will. Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: I really like 40K but I don't want to play it right now as it is being run under GW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/04 22:09:45
Captain Killhammer McFighterson stared down at the surface of Earth from his high vantage point on the bridge of Starship Facemelter. Something ominous was looming on the surface. He could see a great shadow looming just underneath the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, slowly spreading northward. "That can't be good..." he muttered to himself while rubbing the super manly stubble on his chin with one hand. "But... on the other hand..." he looked at his shiny new bionic murder-arm. "This could be the perfect chance for that promotion." A perfect roundhouse kick slammed the ship's throttle into full gear. Soon orange jets of superheated plasma were visible from the space-windshield as Facemelter reentered the atmosphere at breakneck speed. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:17:32
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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Kilkrazy wrote:Yes but there are people who do want to play Unbound with a mishmash of figures or ApocEscalation with giant tanks and stuff. Just not everyone.
Apoc games are fairly common in my area and lists are already unbound in that scenario. I don't really understand the hate people are giving GW over those rules. It's pretty clear to me that they wanted to give people a rule-set that allowed them to play casually while using a diverse field of units to choose from.
Kilkrazy wrote:The key question is how pissed off are the "just not everyones" and if they desert the system what damage will that do in terms of lost sales and reduced recruitment by word of mouth?
Well.. i've heard about people deserting the system since around 1998 which was obviously a bit premature.
It seems to be consensus that people are abandoning GW because PP is cheaper, more balanced and GW eats babies etc.. Which is fine.. More power to them. But when I look at their models, they cost the same if not more than GW (before discounts). They don't have troop transports or fliers or anything that closely resembles modern warfare. Plus, there is way too much of the game where your entire army is in a 16" bubble and I don't see much fun in that. When I see a 40k game, the entire board is used, drop pods are deepstriking, units are outflanking and coming in from reserve.. It's just more dynamic and has a more cinematic feel. I don't see that with any of the competition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:27:34
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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dereksatkinson wrote:
But when I look at their models, they cost the same if not more than GW (before discounts).
You also don't need as many for a typical viable army.
That argument is like comparing a skirmish game ( WM) to a mass battle game ( 40K) and scoffing that they're both the same price per model.
They don't have troop transports or fliers or anything that closely resembles modern warfare.
Because WarmaHordes is not modern warfare?
Plus, there is way too much of the game where your entire army is in a 16" bubble and I don't see much fun in that.
That is subjective.
When I see a 40k game, the entire board is used, drop pods are deepstriking, units are outflanking and coming in from reserve.. It's just more dynamic and has a more cinematic feel. I don't see that with any of the competition.
Again, that is subjective.
There are games out there that are just as "cinematic" and epic as 40K. Dropzone Commander, Bolt Action etc. If you really don't see games out there that are as fun as Gamesworkshop's, you're just not looking hard enough. Or at all...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/05 13:28:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:32:23
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:dereksatkinson wrote:
But when I look at their models, they cost the same if not more than GW (before discounts).
You also don't need as many for a typical viable army.
That argument is like comparing a skirmish game ( WM) to a mass battle game ( 40K) and scoffing that they're both the same price per model.
They don't have troop transports or fliers or anything that closely resembles modern warfare.
Because WarmaHordes is not modern warfare?
Plus, there is way too much of the game where your entire army is in a 16" bubble and I don't see much fun in that.
That is subjective.
When I see a 40k game, the entire board is used, drop pods are deepstriking, units are outflanking and coming in from reserve.. It's just more dynamic and has a more cinematic feel. I don't see that with any of the competition.
Again, that is subjective.
There are games out there that are just as "cinematic" and epic as 40K. Dropzone Commander, Bolt Action etc. If you really don't see games out there that are as fun as Gamesworkshop's, you're just not looking hard enough. Or at all...
Again, that is subjective.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/05 13:43:20
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:That argument is like comparing a skirmish game ( WM) to a mass battle game ( 40K) and scoffing that they're both the same price per model.
I priced it out.. it's about $450-$500 for an army. Then, if I wanted to go to a major tournament, I'd need up to 2 more armies because they seem to allow you to switch factions so you don't get a bad matchup. So to really be competitive, you are talking $1000-1500.
Because WarmaHordes is not modern warfare?
Right.. the background is bizarre and hard for a lot of people to connect with.
Plus, there is way too much of the game where your entire army is in a 16" bubble and I don't see much fun in that.
That is subjective.
How exactly is that subjective? Are you going to argue that every single warmachine game isn't just bubble wrapping a caster?
When I see a 40k game, the entire board is used, drop pods are deepstriking, units are outflanking and coming in from reserve.. It's just more dynamic and has a more cinematic feel. I don't see that with any of the competition.
Again, that is subjective.
I can see you disagreeing that it's more cinematic but you can't say that Warmachine is a game where vast amounts of units operate independently. People use casters to boost their units and that is where the main strategy (outside of list building) is.
There are games out there that are just as "cinematic" and epic as 40K. Dropzone Commander, Bolt Action etc. If you really don't see games out there that are as fun as Gamesworkshop's, you're just not looking hard enough. Or at all...
And how many people are saying 40k is going to be replaced by Dropzone commander? lol
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