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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 20:12:43
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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If we accept the argument that GW prices have only increased at the rate of "real" inflation, how do we account for the prices of other wargame companies that haven't?
Is it because increasingly only the shrinking number of well-off people are buying GW stuff?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 20:21:36
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Regular Dakkanaut
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dereksatkinson wrote:
GW's competition is so small and are basically coming up from zero. It's not a good comparison to make. Growth rates for companies that are just starting out are naturally going to be higher than established businesses.
The market grew by 20% last year and 15% average over the last five years. That is M-A-R-K-E-T of which GW is a small part of.
You are correct about smaller companies. However, when you have hundreds, if not thousands of them, those small numbers add up very fast.
I am most certain Fantasy Flight, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli, Hawk Wargaming, Warlord Games, Wyrd Miniatures, Manic, and quite a few others are not $1,000 companies.
You might want to do a bit of reading on Kodak, Digital Equipment Corporation, Wang Computer Corporation, TSR, Lehman Brothers, and quite a few other business cases like this. The story is always about a series of smaller players picking apart the bigger complacent player until they collapse or become insignificant, and then from the ashes one of the smaller players starts to become the bigger player.
Like I said. Let's wait for the July numbers, then we can see which way the crow is flying. Automatically Appended Next Post: dereksatkinson wrote:I also understand that your home might not have doubled in price but you are definitely in the minority. Even if it's in the 50% range (which is not the case in the USA for sure) that doesn't counter the price changes in every other sector that makes up the CPI.
First, I live in the mid-West of the USA.
Second, I own seven properties.
Third, best is at 50% gain over last decade, worst gain is at 30% and one is even at a complete flat rate.
Fourth, two are in New England, three here in the mid-west, one in florida, and one in Aruba.
So, I am a pretty bad example I guess.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 20:31:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 20:49:00
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Stoic Grail Knight
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I think the implication is that the other products are inferior.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 21:01:40
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Accolade wrote:
I think the implication is that the other products are inferior.
Nah, can't be, else that would be a wildly unsubstantiated piece of subjective hyperbole.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 21:18:11
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Deep in a chamber far below the surface on Holy Terra, a creaking noise fills the air. A heavy gilded obsidian door slowly swings open, carved with intricate javascript code. A shadowy figure steps slowly towards the center of the room, towards the throne: 80 feet tall, dominating, intimidating. The muted glints of light reveal it's architecture: countless skulls, human skulls of the banned and damned, clad in bronze, re-purposed for data storage. Filled with unknowable secrets, they stared balefully at the visitor.
There was a stirring atop to throne. A dark face, hooded in grandmaster's robes - granite shaded, trimmed in orange - beheld he emissary.
The visitor kneeled in reverence.
"My lord, it is Jonolikespie. He knows too much."
Long moments passed in that room, a heavy silence, as dust motes flitted in the cold air.
Finally, Legoburner spoke. A quiet, rasping whisper said:
"It is good you bring me this news, Alpharius. I have considered this matter. No one can know he dread secrets we protect. You know what must be done."
Alpharius nodded, and tightened his grip on his hammer. Spattered with the blood and gore of a thousand spammer and trolls, the very surface of it roiled with the damned souls it claimed.
"Your will be done. Praise Connery."
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 22:41:25
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Dakka Veteran
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In the face of a global community of 40k players citing specific reasons why they no longer play or buy GW, many of such reasons being exactly the same, I feel there really is no need for a macroeconomics explanation of a declining GW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 22:58:08
Subject: Re:The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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7th edition seems to be a very specific reason. It seems to be taking away the structure of the old editions list making and turning the product into pay to win. Yep, you heard it first here a subscription based product ( rule books) has a pay to win mentality.
I think this grates with people as well as having a new edition that seems worse to the old ones. I think this is the first edition I have seen come out that isn't greeted by RAGE but greeted by disappointment and apathy.
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My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0029/06/19 22:58:20
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
Hasbro isn't having to prop up its own retail chain and produces a lot more than just games. It can easily absorb less than stellar performance in games with its toy sales.
True. However that doesn't change the fact that their gaming division has seen about zero growth over the last 5 years - in fact even GW has grown more over that period! (not 'declined in double digits')
So if GW is doing terribly because they are "not seeing double digit growth whilst rest of the gaming market is" then Hasbro is doing even worse than GW. Maybe they're even bigger idiots?
That is of course possible, however more likely answer is that largest players of the market see less relative growth than small players, to whom even small absolute growth can mean enormous relative growth. GW is something like ten times bigger than its next biggest competitor, and as I recall, Hasbro's gaming division is 5-6 times bigger than GW.
This is not to say that GW are doing particularly great (they aren't), just that it's a folly to compare growth % of companies which are so disparate in size. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept the argument that GW prices have only increased at the rate of "real" inflation, how do we account for the prices of other wargame companies that haven't?
Have they not? I don't play WM/H, but browsing through PP catalogue, their minis do not seem to be signifantly cheaper than GW minis. Maybe their single character models are slightly cheaper, but basic infantry, war machines etc. seem to be about same price, in some cases even more expensive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/12 23:09:38
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 23:22:28
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Backfire wrote:
So if GW is doing terribly because they are "not seeing double digit growth whilst rest of the gaming market is" then Hasbro is doing even worse than GW. Maybe they're even bigger idiots?
No, GW is going backwards while the rest of the industry is experiencing double digit growth, at least based on current info.
It is very difficult for a dominant incumbent to achieve significant growth, but maintenance is really a must.
Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept the argument that GW prices have only increased at the rate of "real" inflation, how do we account for the prices of other wargame companies that haven't?
Have they not? I don't play WM/H, but browsing through PP catalogue, their minis do not seem to be signifantly cheaper than GW minis. Maybe their single character models are slightly cheaper, but basic infantry, war machines etc. seem to be about same price, in some cases even more expensive.
Not when you factor in game value in, no, they haven't. This is old ground, but if two companies charge price A for a model, and company X's game requires the purchase of 10 of those models for a typical game, and company Z's game requires 30, then Company X's game is cheaper, even though the models cost the same!
Seriously, this gets brought up time and again, is it really that hard of a concept for people to grasp?!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 23:26:42
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 23:34:55
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Fixture of Dakka
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One of my favourite examples that helps with this is Fantasy Flight and X-Wing.
Q: "How well has X-Wing been selling?"
A:
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 23:40:41
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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azreal13 wrote:Backfire wrote:
So if GW is doing terribly because they are "not seeing double digit growth whilst rest of the gaming market is" then Hasbro is doing even worse than GW. Maybe they're even bigger idiots?
No, GW is going backwards while the rest of the industry is experiencing double digit growth, at least based on current info.
Well, we don't know yet if they're going backwards, they had growth until around mid-2013 after which their sales have declined. We do not know yet if the decline has continued.
And once again, if entire industry is experiencing double digit growth, why is Hasbro not part of it either?
Kilkrazy wrote:
Have they not? I don't play WM/H, but browsing through PP catalogue, their minis do not seem to be signifantly cheaper than GW minis. Maybe their single character models are slightly cheaper, but basic infantry, war machines etc. seem to be about same price, in some cases even more expensive.
Not when you factor in game value in, no, they haven't. This is old ground, but if two companies charge price A for a model, and company X's game requires the purchase of 10 of those models for a typical game, and company Z's game requires 30, then Company X's game is cheaper, even though the models cost the same!
Seriously, this gets brought up time and again, is it really that hard of a concept for people to grasp?!
Seriously, how hard it is to grasp that the point was about MINIATURES, not gaming systems as a whole. The fact that PP games may require less minis to play is completely irrelevant to this point.
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Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 23:50:06
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Backfire wrote: azreal13 wrote:Backfire wrote:
So if GW is doing terribly because they are "not seeing double digit growth whilst rest of the gaming market is" then Hasbro is doing even worse than GW. Maybe they're even bigger idiots?
No, GW is going backwards while the rest of the industry is experiencing double digit growth, at least based on current info.
Well, we don't know yet if they're going backwards, they had growth until around mid-2013 after which their sales have declined. We do not know yet if the decline has continued.
And once again, if entire industry is experiencing double digit growth, why is Hasbro not part of it either?
We do know they're going backwards, based on their last financial statement. What we don't know of that was a blip or a trend.
I already addressed your second question.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Have they not? I don't play WM/H, but browsing through PP catalogue, their minis do not seem to be signifantly cheaper than GW minis. Maybe their single character models are slightly cheaper, but basic infantry, war machines etc. seem to be about same price, in some cases even more expensive.
Not when you factor in game value in, no, they haven't. This is old ground, but if two companies charge price A for a model, and company X's game requires the purchase of 10 of those models for a typical game, and company Z's game requires 30, then Company X's game is cheaper, even though the models cost the same!
Seriously, this gets brought up time and again, is it really that hard of a concept for people to grasp?!
Seriously, how hard it is to grasp that the point was about MINIATURES, not gaming systems as a whole. The fact that PP games may require less minis to play is completely irrelevant to this point.
Price per miniature is irrelevant when you're talking about a game
I'd have no problem with £30 a mini if I only needed one of two to play a game that was a lot of fun. If price per mini was truly important, GW would have less of an issue, price per mini x number required to experience the game properly is what is causing issues.
Plus, read up on something called "Price Leadership" GW could very well be making you hobby more expensive even if you don't buy anything from them.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 23:52:53
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/12 23:57:12
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Drakhun
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Backfire wrote: azreal13 wrote:Backfire wrote: So if GW is doing terribly because they are "not seeing double digit growth whilst rest of the gaming market is" then Hasbro is doing even worse than GW. Maybe they're even bigger idiots? No, GW is going backwards while the rest of the industry is experiencing double digit growth, at least based on current info. Well, we don't know yet if they're going backwards, they had growth until around mid-2013 after which their sales have declined. We do not know yet if the decline has continued. And once again, if entire industry is experiencing double digit growth, why is Hasbro not part of it either? Kilkrazy wrote: Have they not? I don't play WM/H, but browsing through PP catalogue, their minis do not seem to be signifantly cheaper than GW minis. Maybe their single character models are slightly cheaper, but basic infantry, war machines etc. seem to be about same price, in some cases even more expensive. Not when you factor in game value in, no, they haven't. This is old ground, but if two companies charge price A for a model, and company X's game requires the purchase of 10 of those models for a typical game, and company Z's game requires 30, then Company X's game is cheaper, even though the models cost the same! Seriously, this gets brought up time and again, is it really that hard of a concept for people to grasp?! Seriously, how hard it is to grasp that the point was about MINIATURES, not gaming systems as a whole. The fact that PP games may require less minis to play is completely irrelevant to this point. Never mind. You changed what you said, making my counter argument irrelevant.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/12 23:59:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 00:00:06
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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azreal13 wrote:
I'd have no problem with £30 a mini if I only needed one of two to play a game that was a lot of fun. If price per mini was truly important, GW would have less of an issue, price per mini x number required to experience the game properly is what is causing issues.
Just £30? Why not £150? After all, even then it would be cheaper than PP or GW army. Surely that would be acceptable, right?
azreal13 wrote:
Plus, read up on something called "Price Leadership" GW could very well be making you hobby more expensive even if you don't buy anything from them.
So...if the other companies are price gouging, that too is GW's fault?
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Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 00:05:58
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Backfire wrote: azreal13 wrote:
I'd have no problem with £30 a mini if I only needed one of two to play a game that was a lot of fun. If price per mini was truly important, GW would have less of an issue, price per mini x number required to experience the game properly is what is causing issues.
Just £30? Why not £150? After all, even then it would be cheaper than PP or GW army. Surely that would be acceptable, right?
If I enjoyed the game sufficiently? Yep.
azreal13 wrote:
Plus, read up on something called "Price Leadership" GW could very well be making you hobby more expensive even if you don't buy anything from them.
So...if the other companies are price gouging, that too is GW's fault?
Essentially, yes. GW sets the prices, and that allows other companies to follow suit. PP couldn't charge £30 for 10 minis if the accepted price point for 10 minis was £20 without good reason. As the dominant player for literally decades, GW has established pricing conventions which other companies follow.
EDIT
There is a flip side to that, which is that because there is so much meat in the pricing, smaller companies, with less efficiencies, can establish themselves, undercut GW and still make a living. Ironically, it is thanks to GW that we have such a diverse range of companies making so many valid alternatives to GW games and models.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 00:08:41
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 00:35:10
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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....slow clap....
For derek and backfire's white knighthoods finally coming through!
I know six 40K players. Two have bought the rules. One has torrented the rules. No one seems interested in playing that game anymore.
We are too busy building terrain for Infinity.
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Captain Killhammer McFighterson stared down at the surface of Earth from his high vantage point on the bridge of Starship Facemelter. Something ominous was looming on the surface. He could see a great shadow looming just underneath the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, slowly spreading northward. "That can't be good..." he muttered to himself while rubbing the super manly stubble on his chin with one hand. "But... on the other hand..." he looked at his shiny new bionic murder-arm. "This could be the perfect chance for that promotion." A perfect roundhouse kick slammed the ship's throttle into full gear. Soon orange jets of superheated plasma were visible from the space-windshield as Facemelter reentered the atmosphere at breakneck speed. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 01:36:52
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Wraith
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I want to say that this thread should be help up as the epitome of folks saying Dakka is "nothing but a cesspool of bile and hatred with not a rational thought in sight".
I've read this article in full over a period of time and cannot help but to see what I felt was gut intuition to a product losing value while increasing in price come to light from folks more skilled in the monetary mindset than I.
I look forward to the discussions held when July does hit from the folks are contributing in a meaningful way. Just wanted to say thanks for a great read.
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Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 01:46:59
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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*edit, nevermind*
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 01:48:04
Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 02:02:45
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Wraith
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Also, it was mentioned that the ebooks and print versions differed greatly as the fluff in the print version was lacking a swath of stuff. Is there a discussion or proof of that elsewhere? I haven't seemed to track that factoid down.
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Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 02:46:15
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Fixture of Dakka
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jamesk1973 wrote:....slow clap....
For derek and backfire's white knighthoods finally coming through!
I know six 40K players. Two have bought the rules. One has torrented the rules. No one seems interested in playing that game anymore.
We are too busy building terrain for Infinity.
Finally?
I see GW like the car makers in N-America when Japan chipped away with their reasonably priced cars that outperformed the American cars in many ways,
The same arrogance is at GW ignoring the market and their customers.
GW is like the Titanic heading towards the iceberg stating this ship is unsinkable!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 02:46:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 05:21:00
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I don't know how much Warmachine models cost because I have never been interested in the game.
I compared GW's SM and Tau infantry with Perry Bros' ACW models because they are fairly similar in terms of size and complexity, and because Perry Bros is in my mind the most prominent manufacturer of 28mm plastic figures.
Even if PP models cost the same as GW models the question of why Perry models defy the laws of inflation is not invalidated.
The basic point I am making is that the price of GW models apparently is not accounted for by economic reasons. That may well apply to PP to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 06:13:18
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Compel wrote:One of my favourite examples that helps with this is Fantasy Flight and X-Wing.
Q: "How well has X-Wing been selling?"
A:
Isn't X-Wing really expensive? It looks expensive to me, £10-12 for a small pack with a single X-Wing and rules. I don't think the outright cost is all that's stopping GW, it's that people just don't want to buy what they're selling. It's the huge sudden leaps in price that make people pause for thought and the way they push low quality product like Finecast at premium prices.
But they've done a poor job of selling their product and managing a customer base. They take customers for granted, their head of IP described our favourite hobby as being the buying of more GW miniatures. They claim not to advertise and rely on word of mouth, which means the Internet is swamped with criticism that they don't respond to because they've closed their Facebook and Twitter, reduced their website to an online store, their few communications with the gaming community come in the form of legal threats to fan sites. Their hobby magazine would pull people in if it weren't a mere picture book, their stores are small without gaming space and run by a single salesman rather than a hobby shop run by a gamer. Independent game stores are often very successful because they manage the long term and foster a customer community, GW as in other ways look as the short term and heap large sales demands on their employees leading to the unpleasant hard sell on everyone coming through the door.
My reasons for not buying GW are not primarily to do with price, although I do think some of their pricing is just silly so there is a value for money aspect. It's because their product is poor (Finecast), they offer little variety in product (only a couple of mass battle games), a worthless monthly magazine that isn't any fun, horrible shops where half the stuff is direct-only anyway, and lastly I don't want to give money to a company that IP bullies it's competitors, because I value diversity in my hobby.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 06:16:44
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Wraith
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There are some reasons why PP minis cost so much. Part of it probably has to do with their capabilities and that a lot of models use a thick, heroic style that requires more materials. They are also a larger scale than 40k. Many of the metals are cheaper than a similar sized finecast. I have several "large" metal minis that run about $12~$20, usually casters being more pricey. Nothing like the GW Fantasy Ogres that are out of this world priced. When PP goes from a traditionally metal kit to their resin, you see a significant price decrease. My Bane Thralls went from $85~ish a box to $60~ish a box.
Yes, PP resin has mold lines like it's going out of style, sadly, but it's usually on the smaller bits I've found. Their metals are very clean.
Infinity is probably the worst cost per model wise, to be honest. You have tiny, truescale 28mm minis that are $15+. But some armies only need about 10. To play a tournament, you might go up to $20. There are box sets that help offset this cost, but that's putting you back about $300 for 600~pts (2x tournament lists for maximum options). And the rules are free. So there's that...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 06:17:17
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 06:51:42
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
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Howard A Treesong wrote:
Isn't X-Wing really expensive? It looks expensive to me, £10-12 for a small pack with a single X-Wing and rules. I don't think the outright cost is all that's stopping GW, it's that people just don't want to buy what they're selling. It's the huge sudden leaps in price that make people pause for thought and the way they push low quality product like Finecast at premium prices.
It comes back again to how much you need for a game. Anything over 4 ships in a standard game is considered a swarm/horde army and the absolute most you could possibly fit in a standard 100 point squadron is 8 ships. It will generally cost you around £150 to build full size squadrons for both factions with plenty of extras to swap in/out between games, including all the rules.
I'm not sure I agree with PP being just-as expensive as GW. Metal PP infantry vs GWs plastic infantry? Yeah GW wins hands down but otherwise prices are less than GW.
Faction starters contain generally contain 2-3 dreadnought sized models, a hero and quickstart rules for £35. You don't get much change from £35 for a single dreadnought model from GW. Most plastic PP Warjacks run at £20 so cheaper than GW's £28. Full metal jacks go for £20, and huge metal with about twice the bulk as a GW dreadnought goes for £30.
Single human sized infantry warcasters go for between £6-£13, depending on bulk. The £6-£8 ones are on par with the crop of plastic characters coming out from GW which go for £15-£18 each, and the £13 ones are probably broadly similar in bulk to the Daemon Prince sized models from GW which run from £15-£23.50.
Infantry, yes GW generally wins hands down. Unless you start comparing like for like. PP Cryx Black Ogruns are £23 for 3 and are on par size wise with GW Ogryns which are £28.50 for 3. Plastic Bane Thralls are a similar size to Terminators. 10 Bane Thralls for £35 vs 5 terminators for £28. No contest. Even the metal bane knights run £50 for 10 which just beats out the GW Terminators.
The only real outliers that GW wins on are rank and file 28mm man-sized infantry. PP models generally run £35 for 10 which GW obviously beats with their rank and file boxes. However, compare them to the newer boxes such as Sternguard or the Scions and suddenly PP is winning hands down again.
Factor in, of course, that all of the PP boxes come with the complete rules for the unit and have much, much more in-game value than any of the GW units and it's absolutely no contest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 07:11:59
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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X-wing is reasonably priced, I think.
The models are very nice, and well painted to a playable standard (except the lambda shuttle which is a bit poor). I'd charge between 20 and 40 quid to paint a millenium falcon to the same standard as the FFG on, which is 25, painted, out of the box.
You get a lot in each expansion, and each feels like it changes the base game significantly when you get your first. It's also very immediate gratification - just punch out the card and clip a few bits together.
After that you're looking for the various upgrade cards and just the model really, yes, you could print/proxy the cards for friendly play, but FFG support tourneys very well and that means using official cards. Marketing lessons from other CCGs come in.
Each product feels like it has immediate value, whereas GW products feel like you're paying to work more and more as over complex models make the prep time for a table-ready unit longer and longer.
I like x-wing. A lot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 07:28:18
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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winterdyne wrote:X-wing is reasonably priced, I think.
The models are very nice, and well painted to a playable standard (except the lambda shuttle which is a bit poor). I'd charge between 20 and 40 quid to paint a millenium falcon to the same standard as the FFG on, which is 25, painted, out of the box.
You get a lot in each expansion, and each feels like it changes the base game significantly when you get your first. It's also very immediate gratification - just punch out the card and clip a few bits together.
After that you're looking for the various upgrade cards and just the model really, yes, you could print/proxy the cards for friendly play, but FFG support tourneys very well and that means using official cards. Marketing lessons from other CCGs come in.
Each product feels like it has immediate value, whereas GW products feel like you're paying to work more and more as over complex models make the prep time for a table-ready unit longer and longer.
I like x-wing. A lot.
I don't play X-Wing but although £25 for the Starter set "only" gives you 3 ships, enough of those who do play have said that those models are enough to give you a fun game.
If I looked it purely because of what you physically receive then £12 for one model does seem steep but if that price gives you fun, challenge and longevity then its worth it. That where I look at value as being separate from cost.
I do however own the Tantive IV (£74.99) because:
1. Its a gorgeous model.
2. I'm still a big Star Wars fan.
3.The Blockade Runner is one of my favourite models from the films.
My apologies to any player who hasn't got one because of people like me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 07:55:38
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Calculating Commissar
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Howard A Treesong wrote: Compel wrote:One of my favourite examples that helps with this is Fantasy Flight and X-Wing.
Q: "How well has X-Wing been selling?"
A:
Isn't X-Wing really expensive? It looks expensive to me, £10-12 for a small pack with a single X-Wing and rules. I don't think the outright cost is all that's stopping GW, it's that people just don't want to buy what they're selling. It's the huge sudden leaps in price that make people pause for thought and the way they push low quality product like Finecast at premium prices.
The X-Wing blisters still cost about the same as the bottom end of similar sized GW blisters (the £12.50 characters rather than the £25 characters), except they come pre-painted, have all the rule cards and tokens you need, and make up a significant proportion of a force (i.e probably 25% of a force rather than 2%). Automatically Appended Next Post: alphaecho wrote:I don't play X-Wing but although £25 for the Starter set "only" gives you 3 ships, enough of those who do play have said that those models are enough to give you a fun game.
You can quite comfortably play games with just the starter set, but it can get a bit dull for the rebel player with only a single ship. What many people (including myself) do is buy a starter set each, giving you both a set of rules, plenty of dice and a 2 X-Wing Vs 4 Tie-Fighter line-up which gives some more options. Since each starter costs the same as a Taurox, it's not a big leap.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/13 08:00:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 09:05:38
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Howard A Treesong wrote:
You can quite comfortably play games with just the starter set, but it can get a bit dull for the rebel player with only a single ship. What many people (including myself) do is buy a starter set each, giving you both a set of rules, plenty of dice and a 2 X-Wing Vs 4 Tie-Fighter line-up which gives some more options. Since each starter costs the same as a Taurox, it's not a big leap.
I'm trying to avoid branching out into collecting other games I'd rarely have time to play. You're not helping.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 09:20:29
Subject: Re:The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Inevitably when discussing GW pricing, comparisons are always made on a miniature by miniature basis, which is really the incorrect way to do it. In business to business sales, and sometimes auto sales, frequently a number used is "total cost of ownership" (or TCO). TCO is frequently used to show how something that may cost you more up front, may cost you less in maintenance over the long run while something cheap up front, may be much more expensive in maintenance, thus truly costing you more.
This same methodology should be applied to the overall game. Sure, some miniatures, on a like for like basis, may cost as much as GW (and these overall truly are very few), but the TCO of owning a complete force for standard level games is DRASTICALLY lower than GW. Honestly, most games can be had for the $200-$400 range for rules and a standard force required for the game.
This is where GW goes "five ways to Sunday" wrong. They have created a game that requires dozens and dozens of models. Yet they price as if their game only requires 10-20 models. In effect, you can quickly spend almost $1,000 building a decent sized, and fairly competitive army.
GW does not have the quality to justify any of their pricing. Aesthetics are not necessarily quality, as that is always personal preference. Quality to me is this simple - if I buy a GW mini and a mini from another manufacturer - will both of them last years on my shelf and give me plenty of years of playing time. In this aspect, GW is no different than any other manufacturer. However, with Finecast, that is even debatable. Finecast can wreck a miniature just sitting in your car on a fairly warm day. No other manufacturer has that problem. GW is charging you a premium for an inferior product. The same can be said for their printed products and the general quality of their rules versus competition.
The funny thing about all of this is, especially when it comes to plastics, that all of GWs competitors us third-parties for their manufacturing of plastic molds and miniatures. Usually Renedra (Perry and Warlord) or Wargames Factory (Privateer Press, Wyrd Miniatures, DreamForge Games, et al.). GWs real strength is their in house capabilities which should give them the capability to effectively crush any competitor in the market in pricing. Instead, they have given the entire market the chance to effectively chip away at them by making pricing so high that other companies can now charge much more than they normally would have and have more cash to market and support their games against GW.
Secondly, on the topic of GW health overall. It is frequently debated that looking at smaller competitors growth in percentage is wrong as double-digits of a smaller number are easier to obtain. The inverse can also be said, that a double-digit decline of a larger company then is a catastrophe. Last period, on their main product lines, GW had a real decline of 13% (UK) to 19% (Asia and Oceania). Only good performance of BL/FW/licensing helped cut this to overall 11% loss.
Sorry to say it, but in my fairly long experience, a double-digit decline of that magnitude is NOT a temporary blip - it is a big red flag of a turning point in a company moving into severe trouble. This last period, GW did nothing to reverse that trend as all they did was "more of the same". In other words, what caused that kind of massive decline in the first place, GW just did more of and at a more intense level. All that ever tends to lead to is an acceleration of the decline, not a reverse. Which is why I have said many times before that these type of actions always tend to have the reverse effects that a company is expecting.
The release of 7th edition is a particularly telling sign. The LEs, run at 40% of the total of 6th edition, are STILL available weeks after release when 6th edition sold out in a matter of hours at a higher quantity. Reports are leaking out that Dystopian Wars, 2nd edition, is outselling 40k 7th edition by a factor of 7 to 1 in some areas. And since the release of 7th, complete collections of armies going for dirt cheap have skyrocketed on ebay. Just prior to 7th edition being known, when I sold three of my 40k armies, the search for "warhammer 40k armies" turned up just under 7,000 results. Today, that same search turns up almost 50,000 results. The spike coincided with the release of 7th edition. In short, there are quite a few signs that 7th edition is NOT performing well at all and is more likely causing a lot of former customers to abandon GW.
The next period financials are going to be less about if GW turned it around and more about how quickly they are going to reach bottom. The signs are already there in the last period that desperation is sinking in (rushing digital releases out like candy; rushed release of 7th edition; 70%-100% price increases on certain new products; moving 1,100 products to direct only; inability to maintain acceptable stock levels on new product releases - Wood Elves; and the biggie, upping the dividend to much more than normal - 20 pence vs. 16 pence normal) and the financials are going to be disappointing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/13 09:24:40
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I don't think the Limited Edition not selling is a sign of fundamental decline. I think it is a sign of GW having priced the LE far higher than the market would bear.
The key thing is how many people buy the standard 7th edition because (A) that gives an immediate boost to the bottom line and (B) anyone who doesn't are likely to drop out of The HHHobby and won't buy any more codexes or models either.
If a lot of vets drop out, then GW need new recruits to make up the numbers.
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