Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 heartserenade wrote:
Yeah, I'm also in the "switched to historicals from GW" camp. All my hobby money that used to go to GW for my SM army is now going to Perry and GB and Mantic. I'm even using my Rohan figures for pseudo-historical battles (basically using historical rules but in a fictional setting).

Yes, historicals are competing against GW for my money, and they're winning hard.

Or at least not losing.

I entered fantasy gaming from historical gaming - way back in the seventies. (I am another over 50 gamer.)

I prefer fantasy - but also enjoy WWI, Hundred Years War, and Thirty Years War gaming. (And I am working on a fantasy campaign based on the French & Indian War.)

People can migrate either way, and often the effect is additive - new games and genres being added, with systems being dropped a lot more slowly than they are added.

And the miniatures are likewise passed between games - I use Perry WotR mercenaries in Mordheim.

The Auld Grump, but I will admit... once upon a time there was a certain amount of animosity between the historical gamers and the fantasy gamer - animosity that seemed rather one sided at the time, with fantasy gamers getting a kick out of Sturmgeschutz & Sorcery, and the historical side less amused.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
The future of GW is it will keep making money and succeeding. I have loved the game and purchased models for close to 20 years and will continue to do so.

Not sure if serious or Imperial servitor.

Or if a commissar is behind you with a gun to your head.

Im dead serious. I mean look at the effect GW has. Even those who claim to hate them, still have a constant need to talk about them. People who claim their rules suck, their product is over priced, and GW has terrible customer service. Still play the game and/or buy the models.... Either way they still find a need to talk about GW, hence creating interest. I mean if i disliked something that much, or hated something that much or constantly found a reason to write about how mad I am or terrible something is. I would move on, let it go, and spend time and energy talking about or playing something else I did like.
I think the future of GW is looking great in all honesty, they have come a long way and continue to put out wonderful looking models to go with a great background story/fluff.

Yeah, anti-abortionists who talk often against abortions are secretly pro-abortion and have abortions all the damn time.

Please.

People like talking about the things they dislike because they like talking about the things they dislike. Not because they secretly love them. They're creating NEGATIVE INTEREST. If you see a new game you want to try and all you see are negative comments about it, would you be more inclined to play the game?

Tsilber wrote:
Im dead serious. I mean look at the effect GW has. Even those who claim to hate them, still have a constant need to talk about them. People who claim their rules suck, their product is over priced, and GW has terrible customer service. Still play the game and/or buy the models.... Either way they still find a need to talk about GW, hence creating interest. I mean if i disliked something that much, or hated something that much or constantly found a reason to write about how mad I am or terrible something is. I would move on, let it go, and spend time and energy talking about or playing something else I did like.
I think the future of GW is looking great in all honesty, they have come a long way and continue to put out wonderful looking models to go with a great background story/fluff.

We love 40k, so we're here to talk about 40k. The worst thing about 40k is who makes it so that's what we bitch about the most, that should be pretty obvious. Thankfully we can play 40k without giving GW much if any money, especially vets who already have plenty models. Other companies like Mantic, Dreamforge and Vic Minis all get a lot of money for "counts as" 40k which directly takes money from GWs pockets and the speed of this is only increasing as GWs policies get more insane, not to mention their modeling aesthetics direction lately.

dereksatkinson wrote:

One of the main criticisms i've seen of GW is that they cut into the margins of the independent retailer. That makes their margins larger than their competition. Unless you want to argue that other game companies are doing the same.

I've never heard such a criticism. I've heard complaints that because GW stuff is so commonly sold (and so expensive) game stores need to provide a deep discount (20%+) or something they have at most a 40% margin on. But they make up for it in volume.

The criticism I've heard about GW from stores is usually about the contempt they are treated with and the trade terms; They need to buy in a range of stuff that probably won't sell, can't stock the whole range, never know what's going on, often get orders mixed up and miss deliveries when local own stores get stock fine.

And that's before getting into things like the world pricing, trade embargos, and US webstores not allowing to use images, list anything or take online payments for stuff. Really, in this modern age of technology the only way to sell GW online in the US is still "email us for a price list".

The only complaints I've heard about competition is huge/unpredictable lead times on getting stock, rather than feeling actively shafted.

Corvus Belli was a maker of 15mm Ancients wargame figures before they started Infinity. They still do the Ancients. The figures are very good, the range is a bit limited but nicely focussed on Iberian Peninsula.

Kilkrazy wrote:Corvus Belli was a maker of 15mm Ancients wargame figures before they started Infinity. They still do the Ancients. The figures are very good, the range is a bit limited but nicely focussed on Iberian Peninsula.

Corvus Belli's first English language product announcement that I can find is June 17, 2002. I'm not sure how long they operated before that in just Spain, but their English language product announcements and distribution started 12 years ago.

If someone is particularly interested I am sure they could just ask Corvus Belli who seem a very nice bunch of guys and get a potted history of the company.

 Wayshuba wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Ummm...their dividend was SMALLER than normal as they skipped giving half-year dividend.
"70 to 100% price increases on certain new products"? Which ones? I hope you're not saying "limited edition". By the way, have you noticed that for second straight year they have skipped their annual Great Spring Price Increase.

Lead time for project like 40k 7th edition is much bigger than six months. It was started at least a year in advance. "Rushing digital releases" and "moving products to Direct Only" are policies which have been on place for much longer than six months.

Dividend for year was less, but for period it is 4 pence higher than normal.

Uh, I think it is rather more important how much money they fork out overall, than in one bunch. Besides, they have had 25p dividends in the past.

 Wayshuba wrote:

70% price increase on Scions. Previous stormtroopers were 10 models for $41.25 in metal (or $4.13/model) and new Scions are 5 models in plastic for $35 (or $7/model) - a 70% price increase.

Monthly White Dwarf had 148 pages for $10 (or $0.67 a page). New White Dwarf is $4 for 32 pages ($0.125 a page) - almost a 100% price increase.

They are not doing across the board price increases now, but they are getting stupid silly on new releases instead (like $60 Witch Elves, $53 Flash Gitz, a $105 MorkGorkNaut that is half the size of the $115 Stompa and now a $37 single ork model in plastic).

Storm troopers are more expensive per model, yes, this is what happened in other reboxings of the past, too, it's regrettable and IMO stupid, but not a new trend. New Big Mek is CHEAPER than his predecessor which was $40 for single metal model.

It seems to me that they're moved to somewhat similar pricing system than PP - old model prices are not increased as much, but new models are sometimes outrageously expensive. If you want a good example of the latter, look at new Space Marine characters for 25€ a piece! Fortunately previous much cheaper models are still available.

 Wayshuba wrote:

In addition, for 7th edition and those hoping for the rules without the fluff and catalog you got your wish today. A mini-sized version of the rules is now available.... only it also comes with a mini-edition of all the codexes for the small price of $375. Hmmm... wonder how many players didn't already have their respective codexes, but I guess GW figures you will buy them all again.

Mini-version was available for 6th edition, I'm pretty sure they will eventually release it as a separate book as well once the 'bundle' sale fizzles out. Cynical sales tactic, but nothing particularly new. I think you're just reading too much into it. Sometimes cigar is just a cigar.

 Wayshuba wrote:

Backfire wrote:
As for Rackham, as I understand it, they sold lots of minis but didn't actually make much money and when they ran into trouble, hired some "marketing experts" who didn't understand the business and ruined the company for good.

Yes, there is more to the story and you are correct as well. Point is, it wasn't the recession that did them in as Derek claimed earlier, it was their own business decisions.

Well, I do not know enough to make a judgement. The way I heard it was that their margins were razor thin, and as soon as they had a slight sales drop (maybe recession, maybe not), it dragged them to red. And then they hired some financial whiz kids who were meant to save the company...

last I heard I am not getting derek to handle any of my investments.

I've been with the hobby for 25 years and still continue to purchase GW models, however, I can't say the same for the next 25 years. If you look at it from a non hobbyist perspective you don't see GW putting out anything to encourage younger gamers into the hobby.

They need to bring back the things with pick up and play rule systems such as Space Hulk/Crusade, Warhammer and heroquest, even Blood Bowl as a permanent feature, at a reasonable (somewhat stocking filler) price. Things that can be picked up easily and are expandable into the hobby whilst taking up little time, space, effort and more importantly investment.

From a kids perspective an Ork is a green thing with a gun that looks freakin' amazing and rules the galaxy, add in 2 Books and 30 pages of text to use it and it's allot less appealing.

I can't justify spending £250+ for a starter army (that would get beat) and books for my kids or nephews knowing it's in direct competition with Xbox, and Ipads, I can justify £50-£60 to distract them for 45 minutes. .

Tsilber wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
The future of GW is it will keep making money and succeeding. I have loved the game and purchased models for close to 20 years and will continue to do so.

Not sure if serious or Imperial servitor.

Or if a commissar is behind you with a gun to your head.

Im dead serious. I mean look at the effect GW has. Even those who claim to hate them, still have a constant need to talk about them. People who claim their rules suck, their product is over priced, and GW has terrible customer service. Still play the game and/or buy the models.... Either way they still find a need to talk about GW, hence creating interest. I mean if i disliked something that much, or hated something that much or constantly found a reason to write about how mad I am or terrible something is. I would move on, let it go, and spend time and energy talking about or playing something else I did like.
I think the future of GW is looking great in all honesty, they have come a long way and continue to put out wonderful looking models to go with a great background story/fluff.

Past success is not a guarantee of future success. Look at TSR. They were friggin' D&D. And they fell hard, some of the same symptoms GW has currently. (Not understanding their clientel, run by people who actively disdain the player base, greed, stupidity, pumping out tons of products that are lackluster and ill conceived, etc) Also, people who are on Dakka and complain about GW, don't necessarily still play the game and especially don't necessarily by any GW products. I flat out refuse to buy anything made by GW until they get their act together. Some people who leave, actually leave. The question is: how many people leave and is it a big enough number to affect GW.

Yes. People complain because they are seeing something that they once loved being twisted and Fethed Up Beyond All Recognition, and want to stop the process.

You don't just give up easily on something that you love.

I've only played and collected 40K since 5th Ed (2008), and LOTR SBG since ROTK (2003) but I'm already disillusioned with GW and 40K in particular.

I've delt with sloppy, poorly written rules from GW since RT came out. It's when I FINALLY (yes it took me awhile) realized that they had no intention to write decent rules or create balance that I started looking for an alternative. When I found out they were destroying the fluff of the game (Eldred and Tigirius summoning demons and tyranids allying with space marines to fight off the imperial guard and iron hands) that I called it quits. I moved on to games that actually have good rules, don't actively try to destroy it's own fluff and isn't run by a bunch of bad, stereotypes of the "evil capitalist" from a bad movie.

I have purchased GW products this year, but it's all the OOP metal models and a few used kits off eBay to make the Space Marine chapter I wanted to (a combo of Iron Hand + Blood Angels called the Obsidian Spectres). Do I expect ever to play it? No.

The thing with one's opinion is that it's great to have, but it doesn't change reality or fact. Games Workshop is struggling and doing everything a struggling company would do at this point. Since the December to Remember event in 2013, the quality and value proposition for new GW products has gone completely off the rails. The new Ork fat thing is $5~ cheaper than the twice as big Stompa. There is literally no sense to that at all. More so when you see how crazy the plastic kits from Japan are getting these days at an extremely reasonable price.

It's essentially this. Games Workshop is all but lying to their customers. They say they are a models company interested in collecting miniatures, but charge the highest price for rules on the market. You have $50 cash grab books that feature 1-4 units and they call that a codex. You have one codex that cannot legally be ran by itself because it AUTOMATICALLY LOSES. You have boxes being cut in half by the amount of units and the price going up. You have models moved from a a superior metal to resin and the price going up, let alone the resin being some of the worst in the industry. You have $15 rules additions to weak, middling codices that suddenly make them "playable" released only a few weeks later (while deleting large swaths of models from the books that just so happen to correlate strongly to a certain courtcase).

Oh, and court cases... you have a fairly good size company trying to sue book authors and small, third party houses and getting smashed in the face on both cases for intellectual property. You are defending a company that tried to claim copyright on the term "Halberd". There's no depths to that stupidity.

So yes, you can like Games Workshop and have this image in your mind that they can do no wrong and doing great. But your perception is not reality. And like many other issues in today's society, an opinion on a matter doesn't change fact.

And for the record, I love the Warhammer 40k universe and would love for it to be nothing more than awesome. A well priced game with tight rules, a vast community, and are only arguments are "my models are cooler than your models!" type. I'd love to be able to roll up to any table, plop down my army and never worry about "is it too strong or too weak;" will I perceived as TFG or pull back to much and then get tabled by what I perceive as TFG. Where there is no such thing as "chasing the meta" and no one goes years without a new model or rules updates. Where an edition update doesn't complete change large swaths of the game, but actually be a tweak, simplification, and clarification of the rules. Where game changes and new models are openly tested by the community and feedback is given on official forums so that we all know when we purchase the new rules exactly what we are getting and there's never a "bad choice" unit in a codex, just different styles and varieties. Where a "gunline" isn't looked at with disdain and an "assault" based army isn't met with an eye roll and a chuckle. Where the concept of a deathstar is just another army strategy and not a back breaking scenario of I pick my models up while you run the game.

I don't think everyone with a concerned or outright negative opinion of the current state of Warhammer 40k and Games Workshop is wanting to twist the knife or just being "haters." We are all heavily invested gamers who still care about this part of our hobby and want it to be fun and a worthwhile expenditure of our time and money. The fact that the negative concerns are growing, and not the bile spewing hatred of a new book release, but the actual apathetic approach to new product is the status quo. Releases are luke warm these days and tepid in sales, with even the poster children of their product line registering less of an uptick as normally seen.

And lastly, placing all the blame on the players is the most ludicrous and asinine thing I have ever seen. It's a completely shallow and selfish means of saying "it's not a problem for me, just get better friends!" or something along those lines. It's garbage that goes hand in hand with "Forge the Narrative" as a concept. And it does nothing but breed fissures and dissent within the community further making it a negative space.

I don't think I can exalt that enough.

 TheKbob wrote:

Spoiler:

I have purchased GW products this year, but it's all the OOP metal models and a few used kits off eBay to make the Space Marine chapter I wanted to (a combo of Iron Hand + Blood Angels called the Obsidian Spectres). Do I expect ever to play it? No.

The thing with one's opinion is that it's great to have, but it doesn't change reality or fact. Games Workshop is struggling and doing everything a struggling company would do at this point. Since the December to Remember event in 2013, the quality and value proposition for new GW products has gone completely off the rails. The new Ork fat thing is $5~ cheaper than the twice as big Stompa. There is literally no sense to that at all. More so when you see how crazy the plastic kits from Japan are getting these days at an extremely reasonable price.

It's essentially this. Games Workshop is all but lying to their customers. They say they are a models company interested in collecting miniatures, but charge the highest price for rules on the market. You have $50 cash grab books that feature 1-4 units and they call that a codex. You have one codex that cannot legally be ran by itself because it AUTOMATICALLY LOSES. You have boxes being cut in half by the amount of units and the price going up. You have models moved from a a superior metal to resin and the price going up, let alone the resin being some of the worst in the industry. You have $15 rules additions to weak, middling codices that suddenly make them "playable" released only a few weeks later (while deleting large swaths of models from the books that just so happen to correlate strongly to a certain courtcase).

Oh, and court cases... you have a fairly good size company trying to sue book authors and small, third party houses and getting smashed in the face on both cases for intellectual property. You are defending a company that tried to claim copyright on the term "Halberd". There's no depths to that stupidity.

So yes, you can like Games Workshop and have this image in your mind that they can do no wrong and doing great. But your perception is not reality. And like many other issues in today's society, an opinion on a matter doesn't change fact.

And for the record, I love the Warhammer 40k universe and would love for it to be nothing more than awesome. A well priced game with tight rules, a vast community, and are only arguments are "my models are cooler than your models!" type. I'd love to be able to roll up to any table, plop down my army and never worry about "is it too strong or too weak;" will I perceived as TFG or pull back to much and then get tabled by what I perceive as TFG. Where there is no such thing as "chasing the meta" and no one goes years without a new model or rules updates. Where an edition update doesn't complete change large swaths of the game, but actually be a tweak, simplification, and clarification of the rules. Where game changes and new models are openly tested by the community and feedback is given on official forums so that we all know when we purchase the new rules exactly what we are getting and there's never a "bad choice" unit in a codex, just different styles and varieties. Where a "gunline" isn't looked at with disdain and an "assault" based army isn't met with an eye roll and a chuckle. Where the concept of a deathstar is just another army strategy and not a back breaking scenario of I pick my models up while you run the game.

I don't think everyone with a concerned or outright negative opinion of the current state of Warhammer 40k and Games Workshop is wanting to twist the knife or just being "haters." We are all heavily invested gamers who still care about this part of our hobby and want it to be fun and a worthwhile expenditure of our time and money. The fact that the negative concerns are growing, and not the bile spewing hatred of a new book release, but the actual apathetic approach to new product is the status quo. Releases are luke warm these days and tepid in sales, with even the poster children of their product line registering less of an uptick as normally seen.

And lastly, placing all the blame on the players is the most ludicrous and asinine thing I have ever seen. It's a completely shallow and selfish means of saying "it's not a problem for me, just get better friends!" or something along those lines. It's garbage that goes hand in hand with "Forge the Narrative" as a concept. And it does nothing but breed fissures and dissent within the community further making it a negative space.

The only issue I have with this post is that the users who need to read and absorb it most will be the ones that breeze past it and dismiss it out of hand.

TheKBob.... Best Post Ever! I don't think anyone should be allowed to continue until they read that post, and I'm not talking about skimming through it until you find something that offends you. Actually read it. Well done sir.

I feel like a lot of posts like TheKbob, have a similar theme, just a general apathy is coming over the players. I feel like the saying "The opposite of love isn't hate but apathy" is really applicable for how the community is feeling.

I wish I could add facts, but all I've got is my own anecdote.
I stopped playing 40k in 2008 when I realised I wasn't enjoying myself (shortly after Apocalypse). Last year I realised I was missing the hobby and was desperate to start painting and playing again. I looked at Warhammer Fantasy as a change, but a short browse of forums made me realise I didn't fancy what seemed to be a ridiculous rule set. 40k seems in an even worse state than when I left.

I've decided to buy into Infinity, it just looks like so much fun. I'm also heavily invested in Mierce's Darklands because the minis are outstanding.

I'm GW's perfect target audience. Male, single and a geek with far too much money. I still love the Warhammer universes and I really wanted to get back into them. But GW, by making rubbish games, has persuaded me to get my kicks from other companies whose miniatures are actually more expensive than theirs.

That's how screwed up the GW situation is.

I'm also just about done buying models from GW. The last models I bought from GW proper were the various fortification pieces they released a little while ago. Other than, I only buy Forgeworld. And even then, once I finish my Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children, I'll be done with that, too. Orks? I buy from Kromlech. Imperial Guard? I buy from Dreamforge Games. I've bought some Infinity (haven't actually played yet, though) and some X-Wing, too.

I WANT 40K to be the best game it can be, make no mistake. But GW is no longer in the business of making what I want to buy (especially at GW prices). They killed the Specialist Games, which were among their best products ever. And, ironically enough, other companies have successfully and profitably filled the vacuum those Specialist Games left behind. But I don't want to play Dreadball, I want to play Blood Bowl. I don't want to play Firestorm Armada, I want to play Battlefleet Gothic. I don't want to play Dropzone Commander (well, actually, I do, but that's not the point), I want to play Epic. GW is continuing to let the gaming market slip from their fingers, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

I've been voting with my dollar as well - last year GW made $750 or so off of me - this year $0.

They need to create value to match their pricing. I still love 40k as a game and will continue to play with what I have supplemented by models from other markets, and will return to the fold if GW's actions warrant it.

In the meantime I will reward Hawk with my dollars, I just bought the DzC starter. I know you want one too Tannhauser!

 Yonan wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Im dead serious. I mean look at the effect GW has. Even those who claim to hate them, still have a constant need to talk about them. People who claim their rules suck, their product is over priced, and GW has terrible customer service. Still play the game and/or buy the models.... Either way they still find a need to talk about GW, hence creating interest. I mean if i disliked something that much, or hated something that much or constantly found a reason to write about how mad I am or terrible something is. I would move on, let it go, and spend time and energy talking about or playing something else I did like.
I think the future of GW is looking great in all honesty, they have come a long way and continue to put out wonderful looking models to go with a great background story/fluff.

We love 40k, so we're here to talk about 40k. The worst thing about 40k is who makes it so that's what we bitch about the most, that should be pretty obvious. Thankfully we can play 40k without giving GW much if any money, especially vets who already have plenty models. Other companies like Mantic, Dreamforge and Vic Minis all get a lot of money for "counts as" 40k which directly takes money from GWs pockets and the speed of this is only increasing as GWs policies get more insane, not to mention their modeling aesthetics direction lately.

Well said and well put. I understand what your saying. I wasnt saying people are wrong for hating GW and then still playing or talking about them. I was just stating if someone hated it that much and hated the rules and hated the price of models (which is not the case with some as you put it) I wold simply not buy the models, play the game or waste energy talking about it. But again I understand that this is not the case with everyone. I personally have no issues with GW, never had a problem with them. I'll buy what I like or what I can afford, and find fun and competitiveness in any rules they put out, its been that way for nearly 20 years for me.

EDIT: ROFL, spoke to soon (20years...) So i just opened a package from GW and the finecast mold is messed up a bit. So I might be changing my points of views on Monday when I call them. I find the timing of all this hysterical.

My post was made in response of the "Tsilber" folks out there. It's not a targeted attack, but every time someone rolls through a thread of legitimate beef with Games Workshop and their games, the hand waving of "I have no problems, lulz for you!" gets quite trite.

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart.

There are many that "have no problem" with Games Workshop. Not having a problem and there actually being one or not is two separate matters. I love me some terrible ass video games. Like, we're talking the Rogue Warriors and Ride to Hell: Retributions of the video game worlds. They are god awful piles of nonsense and I revel in their filth because it tickles my fancy. I will never, ever make a claim of my enjoyment of one of these games versus someone else's actual beef with buying a poor or over-costed product. Games Workshop is a poor and over-costed product in comparison to every other game on the market. Their value proposition is the worst for any wargame. Their rules support is non-existent. Their customer and community support, outside the bare necessities required to survive as a model company, is non-existent. Merely replacing bad or miscast minis isn't "good enough" because every reputable minis company does this. I missed my hand from my pBaldur model, so I just put in a request with PP using their online form and I had a new hand in two weeks. No proof, no discussion, just bam, $0.25 bit that probably cost more to ship than make.

I told GW my Bretonnian BSB had a sword that was a complete curled in mess and got a reply of "have you tried how water yet?" Gee, thanks. Because I want to sit there and try to completely unbend a near perfect circle sword for 2 hours on an expensive model I purchased. Um, no? Give me one that isn't a hot pile, please. Finecast... *grumble* I will probably just cut him up as I got a metal BSB off Bartertown instead of dealing with that mess. When your customers would rather hunt down used models over new, something is very much wrong with the situation. As someone who has been hunting eBay for old metals, the units people want all sell for way more than the Finecast variants on eBay and Bartertown if they are metal. Everyone knows what's the better medium for their Sanguinor or Chaplain or BSB guy...

My little rant is a selfish exposition on my feelings of the game. I don't really expect exalts, but thanks for the notice. And as ClockworkChaos mentioned, the opposite of love is not hate, but apathy. I have grown more and more apathetic to the idea of playing Warhammer 40k that it makes me sad and disappointed. I spent today nabbing a few Warmahordes models from my local store, playing two small battle box games, and generally chatting about Warmahordes, Malifaux, and Infinity. Possibly even drumming up some love for Infinity in my local store versus the one an hour away, bonus!

I will not be buying any new Games Workshop product in the foreseeable future. A Bretonnia update will have me interested, but I already have 40+ knights, several lords, 2 trebuchets, and loads of archers and peasants. I really can't think of anything they can sell me that goes outside of bread and butter fantasy army. And I'd have to find someone else to actually play Fantasy against, too.

All things considered, there will be many "everything is okay!" type folks looking a bit bewildered when the age of 40k closes. From reading this thread and others with many smart folks either playing the best "in-character" ruse I've seen on a forum in ages, or we've got a lot of smart business types pointing to the numbers and saying "doesn't look good, gents." I've had some feedback from some GW guys saying their stores aren't doing so hot, either, but that could be more anecdotal (and I'd hate to see them lose their jobs because the guys I've met are all rock stars!).

I don't want to be right, but I won't be afraid to say "I told you so." At the end of the day, if people sided more with the nay-sayers, we'd have a better game. As with anything, stand divided in a community, be it politics or plastic manz, and we will fall. Gonna go play Dark Souls 2 and paint some Warmachine. Stay sane, ya'll.

Edit: As a parting word, please enjoy the best part of Rogue Warrior. Mickey Rourke dialog edited into a swear filled, foul mouthed rap. Enjoy:

I wanted to go back and address Derek's point that if they were planning on paying a dividend with any sort of debt, the nature of the debt would require them to disclose it when they engaged in the debt. No debt yet? No reason to think the dividend will be funded by debt.

It's a very shakey position given that:

a) Companies are likely not required to make any special disclosures outside of their annual reports for debt they classify as "bank overdraft" (like GW did the previous times they borrowed to pay a dividend-- no special debt announcement).

b) GW has no reason to borrow the money until it is needed. Dividends are not paid the instant they are announced. The announcement outlines when the payment will occur. In this case, the 4th of July.

 TheKbob wrote:

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart.

That for me is the saddest aspect of all this, how competitiveness and trying to actually win have become insults in the 40K community. Even when there's an acknowledgement that the rules are busted, the reaction is misdirected into a needless division between TFG competitive players and semi-mythical "casual" ones who apparently show up with no intention of trying to win except by blind luck.

Read my sig.

 Elemental wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

If I have to read another "Hate the Player, Not the Game!" blog (or BoLS) article, I may have to take a pair of hobby knives to the eyes. These arguments only further breed dissent in a player base already torn apart.

That for me is the saddest aspect of all this, how competitiveness and trying to actually win have become insults in the 40K community. Even when there's an acknowledgement that the rules are busted, the reaction is misdirected into a needless division between TFG competitive players and semi-mythical "casual" ones who apparently show up with no intention of trying to win except by blind luck.

The thing on BOLS at least is there's always a crowd that jump on any post criticizing the game, either stating how 40k isn't meant for competitive games, how 40k was never balanced, or just insulting the person and telling them to go play chess instead. Nevermind the constant acceptance of the prices and thinking everything is fine and dandy and 40k is exploding. I get that BOLS itself has their own site and clicks and stuff so I'm used to seeing articles written that gush over everything GW does as though it was great, but the fact the community is so vehement against anyone who criticizes the company is disturbing.

This is DakkaDakka. We encourage a healthy free exchange of ideas.

That's not unusual, it's where the motivation for the quote in my sig came from, it is human nature to gravitate towards groups or individuals that reinforce the views we hold ourselves.

The unfortunate outcome of that sort of behaviour is a community stuck in a closed feedback loop where anything or anyone that disrupts that view is shouted down or driven out.

One of the strengths of Dakka, IMO, is there is a sufficiently diverse pool of opinion, represented by strong minded individuals on both sides. For all the bizarre crap I see posted here, where people appear to have no grasp of the situation as I see it, or seem to read things in a completely different way to me, to the point where I can't even begin to see how the thought process to arrive at their conclusions must have gone, the site is a better, stronger place for it.