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2014/06/18 21:04:13
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Imperial Knights and 7th Edition will prop up the sales entry.
Imperial Knights were the biggest thing since sliced bread in this general area (NW Houston).
The plastic stormtrooper kit was a big seller.
7th has been so-so. As far as I can see even the sales of that have not been as big as IK was.
They should still show a loss in sales even if it only a small one.
That said, there is not much fat or meat for that matter, left to cut off of the bone. Also, how many times can they capture lightning in a bottle, a' la the Imperial Knights?
There are very few codices left to update.
Once their bag of tricks is empty what will be left?
The fluff has been prison raped in the pursuit of profit so even the IP is diluted from its former, crazy, and exciting glory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/18 23:02:17
Captain Killhammer McFighterson stared down at the surface of Earth from his high vantage point on the bridge of Starship Facemelter. Something ominous was looming on the surface. He could see a great shadow looming just underneath the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, slowly spreading northward. "That can't be good..." he muttered to himself while rubbing the super manly stubble on his chin with one hand. "But... on the other hand..." he looked at his shiny new bionic murder-arm. "This could be the perfect chance for that promotion." A perfect roundhouse kick slammed the ship's throttle into full gear. Soon orange jets of superheated plasma were visible from the space-windshield as Facemelter reentered the atmosphere at breakneck speed.
2014/06/18 23:12:16
Subject: Re:The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Right...because cherry picking three crap projects out of all the hundreds of thousands if not millions of projects totally disproves his point.
Wasn't cherry picking at all.. Most of the stuff on kickstarter is unrelated to gaming.
Which still has naught to do with the claim that Kickstarter (not "gaming on Kickstarter", you will note) is smaller than GW. People might be dismissive of you because you're a bold and edgy radical who's speaking uncomfortable truths.....or it might be because you do stuff like this irritating goalpost-moving, indicating you have little interest in arguing in good faith rather than proving your e-superiority by any means necessary.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/18 23:20:04
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
2014/06/18 23:20:48
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.
The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.
GW Our business model wrote:While our 400 or so Hobby centres which show customers how to collect, paint and play with our miniatures and games provide another barrier to entry: our Fortress Moat.
One man stores limiting the ability to show customers how to take part in the hobby means their moat is useless. And the advent of that passing fad, the internet, means people don't need meat space to help them get into the hobby anymore.
GW Our business ness model wrote:We have been building our Fortress Wall and Moat for many years and the competitive advantage they provide gives us confidence in our ability to grow profitably in the future.
GW are still relying on this fortress and moat model and it's too outdated. If this is all they've got to keep their competitive advantage then they are going to have to adapt or ...
2014/06/19 00:16:49
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
*buys Henry an Internet beer and slides a stool in his direction with his foot"
I like you, you can stick around!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.
The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.
Not only that, but I find the "continual investment in product quality" laughable. Just compare the Gorkanaut and Imperial Knight to other models like Gundam kits and the Dreamforge Leviathan. Aesthetics aside, GW can't engineer a big model worth a damn these days.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2014/06/19 00:44:27
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.
The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.
Not only that, but I find the "continual investment in product quality" laughable. Just compare the Gorkanaut and Imperial Knight to other models like Gundam kits and the Dreamforge Leviathan. Aesthetics aside, GW can't engineer a big model worth a damn these days.
My guess would be because they are engineering to maximize sprue usage vs making amazing models and then figuring out how to get them into the fewest molds possible.
GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.
The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.
Not only that, but I find the "continual investment in product quality" laughable. Just compare the Gorkanaut and Imperial Knight to other models like Gundam kits and the Dreamforge Leviathan. Aesthetics aside, GW can't engineer a big model worth a damn these days.
My guess would be because they are engineering to maximize sprue usage vs making amazing models and then figuring out how to get them into the fewest molds possible.
Oh, I completely agree. The Imperial Knight's lack of articulation, limited weapon options, and inability to swap the weapon options it did have were proof of that.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2014/06/19 01:09:48
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Nobody regularly contributing is blaming a single cause hypothesis, the only person doing that appears to be Mr T Kirby.
I thought that Kirby was the single cause hypothesis....
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/19 01:10:00
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/06/19 01:28:50
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Like I said, the guy who just ran the extremely successful Creature Caster Kickstarter called out GW by saying their models are highway robbery in terms of cost and the amount of plastic you get. I imagine anyone without a complete glass eye stare at the kits and bits would agree with this. And it doesn't matter if other companies are the in the same boat, it's still crap.
The Freeblades Kickstarter was successful, meaning I'm getting my second faction for that game later this year and can start providing demo games.
I'm waffling on the idea of selling my 40k armies. On the one hand, I could buy a new bike, a firestorm armada fleet, a DZC fleet, and a save a bunch more from models I probably won't use. On the other hand, I still feel attached to the idea of my Eldar and my SM/BA army I want. Also, my Grey Knights are too unique to sell (very limited customer set for those!). I think my Sisters might be on the chopping block, in all reality. I love the army, but I don't enjoy playing them much and I don't feel like painting them since they are boring, static poses.
I'm disliking the game and the company enough to not want to go to tournaments or buy the new rules, but not mad enough to sell off my lots. Hrmm...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/19 01:47:35
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2014/06/19 02:22:19
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
The main reason I sold off most of my stuff was to reduce clutter. Once I got started, it was actually kind of fun.
Not to mention I made enough to buy a PS4, new stereo speakers, beer making mats, the Warmachine starter kit and rulebook, a 42" TV for the PS4, cigars, and about 3 months of truck payments. That helped. And I *still* have about 2500 points of World Eaters and 2000 points of guard in case I ever do want to play again. (Plus I enjoy painting Catachans from time to time)
Nothing wrong with keeping your foot in the door to come back if the game stops sucking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/19 02:23:08
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- Hanlon's Razor
2014/06/19 02:45:06
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.
The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.
Not only that, but I find the "continual investment in product quality" laughable. Just compare the Gorkanaut and Imperial Knight to other models like Gundam kits and the Dreamforge Leviathan. Aesthetics aside, GW can't engineer a big model worth a damn these days.
My guess would be because they are engineering to maximize sprue usage vs making amazing models and then figuring out how to get them into the fewest molds possible.
Oh, I completely agree. The Imperial Knight's lack of articulation, limited weapon options, and inability to swap the weapon options it did have were proof of that.
And also the prize, i imported the Leviathan and Mortis via a store into Japan and it was still cheaper than the Imperial Knight, I would buy the imperial knight if it was half the price it is now.
slowthar wrote: The main reason I sold off most of my stuff was to reduce clutter. Once I got started, it was actually kind of fun.
Not to mention I made enough to buy a PS4, new stereo speakers, beer making mats, the Warmachine starter kit and rulebook, a 42" TV for the PS4, cigars, and about 3 months of truck payments. That helped. And I *still* have about 2500 points of World Eaters and 2000 points of guard in case I ever do want to play again. (Plus I enjoy painting Catachans from time to time)
Nothing wrong with keeping your foot in the door to come back if the game stops sucking.
I did sell about $600+ stuff at a store that does consignment and filled out armies for other games to completion. Other then that, it's now selling complete kits/armies and I just got done not two months ago prepping a SM/BA list that the new edition may or may not have crapped on. And I have a custom theme I want to do for my Eldar, to boot. So I kinda wanna keep them to paint. Same with my Bretonnia.
Basically, I have all the Infinity I need to compete. Almost all the Cryx I need (not to mention my complete Circle army), so that leaves Malifaux with some plastics I want to get. Other then that, not many mini purchases in the future for me even though I'd like some devastators for 40k to kitbash into Legion of the Damned... someday...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/19 03:05:55
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2014/06/19 03:27:37
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
I'm in same boat as darefsky. I left 40k but I still feel the need to poke my nose over the fence. I love 40k. It was the Hobby for me since 97. Since my first Space Wolves codex I have thought about tabletop gaming everyday of my life.
I went to Iraq and Afghanistan as a US infantry Marine. I have a lot of bills and a Girlfriend and dog to pay for. In short, I'm a grown ass man. Yet playing with toy soldiers has been, and will be my favorite thing to do for the rest of my life.
I can no longer afford GW models. Yet I still spend my money on plastic toys and still spend the majority of my time thinking about them. Turns out, there is a wargaming world that exists outside of GW.
In conclusion (and hopefully on topic), 40k is dead where I live. There used to be a Vibrant community of people who were so involved in the game that they would travel to tournaments. Upwards of 20 people, which is pretty good for a small southern town. 40k was the ONLY game.
No more.
I must also add that not a single one of them post on Dakka. Where I live, the game has died a natural death without the aid of Dakka toxicity.
Sorry guys. Had to spill my guts about the topic. :(
Happy that I've moved on, but still sad that the thing I love is dying.
2014/06/19 03:42:19
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
A wall and moat does you no good when your competition is using helicopters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/19 03:42:38
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/06/19 03:47:13
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Happy that I've moved on, but still sad that the thing I love is dying.
Saw that happen in another small town in the South when I was there. Sorry to hear about that, but thanks for doing what you do, sir.
I've always wanted to go to a west coast event and I now have the chance to easily attend the BAO. But, I'm kinda not wanting to learn 7th even though I have an army ready to go. I'm thinking I might pop by and meet the crew, see if that gets me jazz-ercised about it, but I'm really just thinking wait for the next big skirmish events and prepare for a local steamroller event. They made a prize for the top 3, but anyone who attends is in a raffle for a Gargantuan/Colossal of their choice.
I think Games Workshop could turn it around. It'd be painful and it'd be another year, but it could be done. Things I think that would help:
Spoiler:
1) Shut down all one man stores. Change all trade agreements to empower the FLSG that sells product. Offer store incentives to bring people back into the shop to purchase like the online store does now, but more.
2) Keep your best store owners as traveling game guys. Let them hit up the biggest stores in their area or cities and be the "TO". Let them get feedback, let them make sure the store is being honest in sales, let them run events. Eventually, as these guys lapse out, you make outriders come back (press gangers, henchmen, etc.).
3) Open the floodgates and prepare for the tidal wave of hate: Bring back a community. Pay some community managers to fight the lions. It won't be pretty. In fact, it will be a crap show, but you can stave it off with one thing:
4) Admit the rules are crap and offer to fix them through open beta. Every book comes out for free with just cut down black and white rules. If you really believe your books are worth the $50 price tag for pretty pictures and fluff, then put up or shut up. Let the community pour in feedback. Collect tournament results from those store guys to see what's winning and what isn't.
5) Keep Games Day dead... but create a traveling circuit/team that visits the big events already held by independent TOs. We all know those events cost a metric butt load of money, so let them front it, and you bring in prize support and the name. I'm sure NOVA, BAO, LVO, Feast, Adepticon, Dualcon, WargamesCon, etc. would all be excited to have that presence back if they turn it around.
6) Don't want to decrease the price on stuff? Increase the value. Put more sprues in the box. Bring back 10 man dire avengers, 20 man guardsmen, etc. Make a unit box a FULL FREAKIN' UNIT. 10 man sternguard for $50 suddenly becomes awesome versus knowing you need to spend $100. You get to keep your silly high prices, but you dramatically cut the barrier to entry. While you're at it, make better starter sets for each faction and the game all around. We know they aren't balanced and many feature busted and bad units. They are barely deals, even. Drop your hobby supplies as they are overpriced. Make your paint pots bigger at the same price (dropper bottles would be baller). And those brushes? No, thanks.
7) Stop charging for things that should be a part of other product. Painting guides are all beginner level and not worth the money, put them back into books or provide that as incentive to buy digital.
8) Create a digital army builder app and a one time purchase, say $100, to own all the rules forever. You're going to find that a lot more people will want to try new things if there isn't a $50 price barrier, they can scheme more about allies knowing all the rules, there's less confusion if I can easily reference everything, and you'd be on parity with pretty much every other game these days. Plus, it's way easier to create and maintain a piece of software then those books if you're doing it right.
Crazy ideas, I know, but it's basically common sense to me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/19 03:50:08
Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb
2014/06/19 03:51:27
Subject: Re:The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Happy that I've moved on, but still sad that the thing I love is dying.
Saw that happen in another small town in the South when I was there. Sorry to hear about that, but thanks for doing what you do, sir
I just think that the worst part is in more rural areas (and Charleston isn't that rural) Big companies like Hobbytown are the only places that can support 40k stuff. FLGS cant compete with the internet and GW itself, so Hobbytown are the only people who can stock 40k, yet they make most of their profit on Not GW Products. 40k Players become an inconvenience and rightfully so.
edit: so naturally ....shelves stocked with 40k get stocked with something else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/19 04:27:04
2014/06/19 04:50:09
Subject: Re:The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Crap looks bad and Mr. Beeble is throwing in the towel somewhere between hard stop and pretty bad. Given the previous financial trends from previous years, GW is still probably down massive amounts of sales, with some locations that he's in the know with talking about a 50% drop. Given all the terrible scampering for the end of this fiscal year to include the rush job that is 7E (regardless if you like it or not...), brace yourself for some bad news. He's asking folks to discuss purely profit loss, such as breaking even isn't even a part of the picture.
GW wanted and still want to follow a selective distribution model, similar to that followed by Luxury brands in fashion and cosmetics etc. However they I am sure didn't figure for the entire marketplace shifting as it has done under their feet as they do it so they get hurt twice as hard in the process.
They claimed they could grow to £300m a year publicly a few years ago, they seem to have lost the appetite or capability to attain proper growth.
Owner of Wayland Games
2014/06/19 09:27:56
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
Kilkrazy wrote: Everyone selling your armies and stuff -- someone is buying them who presumably will carry on playing.
Carry on playing is the right term. People who buy whole armies used are, in the vast majority, people that were already playing the game.
So the net effect, in the majority of the times, is that for every person that "sells out", there isn't a new person "buying in" and the game will still be one gamer short than there was previously.
2014/06/19 11:28:20
Subject: The Future of Games Workshop Part 13 - and 14
I too am shocked at the cost of GWs kits now. I have saved a buttload of money by buying and rehabing MK1 kits on Ebay to expand my DAs. 20 and 30 year old minis just upgraded and I yet have not had to put money on the counter for a NIBGW kit in years. I miss the days of three Rhinos in a box for $35.00. Oh 3rd edition values, where did you go?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/19 11:30:18
251 point Khador Army
245 points Ret Army
Warmachine League Record: 85 Wins 29 Losses
A proud member of the "I won with Zerkova" club with and without Sylss.
251 point Khador Army
245 points Ret Army