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Value is now in micro transactions and one click bundle deals that save you 5 dollars for three less clicks worth of effort.

Seriously, the only values left are used models and army boxes that shave a considerable amount off (but use caution about the quality of the units within).

This also seems to be the defining theme of all threads of this nature, the thing that comes up time and time again isn't price, or rules, or bullying legal practice or any of the other things that GW (rightly) get lambasted for.

The one thing that recurs over and over is the word value. People would be more tolerant of wooly rules if they didn't cost so much, people wouldn't care if a miniature was badly designed so it was hard to magnetise or repose, or just flat out dumb looking, if it didn't represent a substantial investment.

GW, right now, represent poor value to many people, and that, above everything else, is what needs to be addressed, either by increasing the quality of what they're offering, or the sale price they offer it at.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Everyone selling your armies and stuff -- someone is buying them who presumably will carry on playing.

Carry on playing is the right term. People who buy whole armies used are, in the vast majority, people that were already playing the game.

So the net effect, in the majority of the times, is that for every person that "sells out", there isn't a new person "buying in" and the game will still be one gamer short than there was previously.

I agree, and GW try constantly to recruit new players to offset the drop-out rate. However there is a kind of perception that because "I" have dropped out of 40K, so will everyone else. I wanted to point out that a certain number of veterans are still keen.

We don't know if GW's recruitment rate exceeds the drop-out rate. We also don't know how the reduction in the network of veteran players might reduce the new recruitment rate.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Henry wrote:

GW Our business model wrote:Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall.

The last couple of years shows that fortress wall is almost non-existent. Chapterhouse has smashed down a large part of that wall by itself.

Not only that, but I find the "continual investment in product quality" laughable. Just compare the Gorkanaut and Imperial Knight to other models like Gundam kits and the Dreamforge Leviathan. Aesthetics aside, GW can't engineer a big model worth a damn these days.

Honestly, Gundam or Mech style models from Japanese manufacturers were better in the 1980's than any of the large models GW is putting out today.

It bears pointing out this observation on masterminis:
http://masterminis.blogspot.ca/2013/08/the-future-of-games-days-games-workshop_21.html

"Shooting yourself in the foot on several occasions

GW only started caring when they realized that their bottom line didn't really increase by supplying internet dealers with their product. Yes, volume went up, but margin went way down. The direct channel suffered. The GW Hobby Centers suffered (tumbleweed syndrom). The independent retailer suffered (crickets chirping) and were up in arms.

Instead of working on the obvious, which was the above described focus on the best (Direct Sales), second best (Hobby Centers) and 'third best' (Indep. Retailers) sales channels, they morphed in a cannibalizing, fourth sales-channel-monster in the form of low-margin-mass-volume Internet traders that consistently gnawed on the existing sales channels.

Well played, GW. NOT.

And yes, this is your fault - and no, this has nothing to do with hindsight. I could have told you. Others tried to tell you. For Frak's sake, you can just google videos of disgruntled retailers on Youtube - they TOLD you.

Again, you turned the community into deal-thirsty bargain hunters. And in my nerdy dreams, I was the Alpha Male of the pack. It was a good dream while it lasted."

We are still seeing the fallout of the cheap prices today even if it is product for resale that people got for very little, competing with new from GW.

From your link, something there struck me:
"Have computer games, and especially these new online role-playing games, finally bitten Games Workshop? [No.]"
Sales dropped in 2004, the year WoW launched. I don't think it much of a stretch that WoWs meteoric rise - and video gaming in general cannibalized sci-fi and fantasy tabletop wargamers as they share a demographic. Video games are a much cheaper and more accessible alternative with much greater competition in products.

 Yonan wrote:
From your link, something there struck me:
"Have computer games, and especially these new online role-playing games, finally bitten Games Workshop? [No.]"
Sales dropped in 2004, the year WoW launched. I don't think it much of a stretch that WoWs meteoric rise - and video gaming in general cannibalized sci-fi and fantasy tabletop wargamers as they share a demographic. Video games are a much cheaper and more accessible alternative with much greater competition in products.

I may be, probably am, atypical, but I loathe MMORPGs.

It might have something with witnessing a friend and former flatmate pretty much retreat from reality and spend his entire non-working life logged on, but they didn't really appeal beforehand.

IMO they're the antithesis of TTWG, as they completely lack the real life social engagement that gaming demands. I'm sure, if one were to create a Venn diagram of nerdly activity, there'd be massive overlaps, but not this guy.

 azreal13 wrote:
IMO they're the antithesis of TTWG, as they completely lack the real life social engagement that gaming demands. I'm sure, if one were to create a Venn diagram of nerdly activity, there'd be massive overlaps, but not this guy.

I can understand not liking them definitely, and they've certainly triggered addiction in some people like your friend. MMOs definitely do not lack social engagement however - coordinating a difficult endeavour with dozens of other people through voice chat, maintaining social bonds to keep the guild together, people who haven't engaged in it severely underestimate the social experience of MMOs. Even just doing a dungeon with a few random people you'll never see again is a great social opportunity. I met most of my friends in MMOs as far back as Ultima Online (high school). I still have them, but most of the friends from high school fell to the wayside as they do for so many people.

TBS and RTS I think have more of an impact on tabletop wargaming due to their much more similar nature but more accessible medium, but I definitely think that MMOs - with their addictive nature as you mentioned - take and keep people who otherwise may have been tabletop gamers too. Especially the teen demographic and F2P MMOs or games like LoL which has an immense playerbase too.

I *may* have been playing the WoW version of pokemon the last few days, leveling battle pets all across Azeroth ; p

 Yonan wrote:
From your link, something there struck me:
"Have computer games, and especially these new online role-playing games, finally bitten Games Workshop? [No.]"
Sales dropped in 2004, the year WoW launched. I don't think it much of a stretch that WoWs meteoric rise - and video gaming in general cannibalized sci-fi and fantasy tabletop wargamers as they share a demographic. Video games are a much cheaper and more accessible alternative with much greater competition in products.

I would agree there is some competition of disposable income but not to a significant extent.
From my own experience I find video games compete for my time the most (<edit> which I think still fits in with your point).

I find the rate where I get models complete and game with them (and possibly buy more) has slowed greatly due to the multitude of distractions out there.
Dakka, Facebook, latest video game, latest sports playoffs; it is a wonder the little men get done at all.
Makes me feel like my commitment to the hobby is shockingly lax as of late but I have to have another go at "Space Run" one more time...

I found when it came to gaming competitions or just arranging a meet with my friends "forced" me to "get'er dun".

 Talizvar wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
From your link, something there struck me:
"Have computer games, and especially these new online role-playing games, finally bitten Games Workshop? [No.]"
Sales dropped in 2004, the year WoW launched. I don't think it much of a stretch that WoWs meteoric rise - and video gaming in general cannibalized sci-fi and fantasy tabletop wargamers as they share a demographic. Video games are a much cheaper and more accessible alternative with much greater competition in products.

I would agree there is some competition of disposable income but not to a significant extent.
From my own experience I find video games compete for my time the most (<edit> which I think still fits in with your point).

That's exactly it. If you're spending your leisure time on video games you're not spending it on tabletop games, so there's then no point of spending money on tabletop products. Or at least, if you're playing less tabletop games, you're likely spending similarly less on it.

IMHO.. I think most of the complaints i've seen about GW have been priced in. They are the same complaints that we've seen for 20+ years and regardless of what a certain bitter socially awkward GW hating online community believes, people will still continue to buy games workshop products going forward. Individuals spending all their day posting thousands of negative comments about a game they supposedly never play isn't going to change that.

I am very glad that GW has chosen not to engage the irrational anymore and focused on keeping the business profitable. It's the best thing for the business and for the longevity of the game. Just like how it's been for 20+ years.

dereksatkinson wrote:
IMHO.. I think most of the complaints i've seen about GW have been priced in. They are the same complaints that we've seen for 20+ years and regardless of what a certain bitter socially awkward GW hating online community believes, people will still continue to buy games workshop products going forward. Individuals spending all their day posting thousands of negative comments about a game they supposedly never play isn't going to change that.

I am very glad that GW has chosen not to engage the irrational anymore and focused on keeping the business profitable. It's the best thing for the business and for the longevity of the game. Just like how it's been for 20+ years.

Glad to see you finally shed whatever pretence of objectivity and neutrality that you were trying to project with your previous posts and take up the white mantle to join your brothers!

I salute you, Sir Knight!

PhantomViper wrote:
Glad to see you finally shed whatever pretence of objectivity and neutrality that you were trying to project with your previous posts and take up the white mantle to join your brothers!

I salute you, Sir Knight!

I am perfectly objective in my financial analysis of the company.

I do not view people who have a negative opinion as irrational. People who have posted thousands of negative comments on games they supposedly no longer play and have sold all their models for I view as acting irrational. If I don't like a game, I move on to something more constructive with my time. I don't sit there and spend 3+ years complaining about it. That isn't an exaggeration either.

If I like Microsoft gaming consoles, I don't constantly bash sony on a daily basis over an extended period while wishing for their failure. I might have an opinion, but I don't make thousands of posts trying to convince people. It speaks volumes about someone's emotional maturity when they take joy and hope for someone's failure.

Derek, dude, just let it go. Your posts in the old GW Financial thread I felt had some decent merit, even if your tone was at times what I perceived as dismissive.

But all you're doing lately is just talking about a considerable segment of Dakka as some negative, hate-spewing segment and then getting frustrated when your posts, which again largely constitute labeling this group as haters, are modded (i.e. that image-only posts about "group-think" did nothing to contribute to the conversation).

Do I think all complaints that people make are valid? No, but then they aren't making these complaints against other people in the forum, they're complaining about a company. GW doesn't need special protection, they're a company just like any other one and their primary motive is to ensure sales...I would have to assume customer satisfaction is a big part of that and there seems to be a growing population of people who are unsatisfied.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
From your link, something there struck me:
"Have computer games, and especially these new online role-playing games, finally bitten Games Workshop? [No.]"
Sales dropped in 2004, the year WoW launched. I don't think it much of a stretch that WoWs meteoric rise - and video gaming in general cannibalized sci-fi and fantasy tabletop wargamers as they share a demographic. Video games are a much cheaper and more accessible alternative with much greater competition in products.

I would agree there is some competition of disposable income but not to a significant extent.
From my own experience I find video games compete for my time the most (<edit> which I think still fits in with your point).

Ah men. This is exactly my experience. Before I had kids, I played video games and did wargaming. Once I had kids, something had to give, and it was video gaming. I just don't play video games much anymore, because when I have time I use it for table top games. As a result, I don't really spend money on video games anymore. GOG, which is awesome, sometimes gets a few bucks for a nostalgic laugh...like the painful realization that I am still utterly incapable of piloting a ship in Descent!

One of the reasons I hate MMOs because I would get lost on raids...there's totally no connection between the two...

Yes, god forbid people disagree with a company that simply raises prices and considers itself a luxury when it's really not. I am entitled to state that I would buy GW products again if:

A) The rules were well-written, concise, streamlined and balanced to allow for both casual and competitive play and allow *ALL* armies to be on equal footing in most cases, so I'm not screwed just because I want to play a World Eaters army and Berserkers are complete gak..

B) The prices were more reasonable, at the very least if the startup cost for a new army wasn't hundreds of dollars. Buying one Tactical Squad @ $40 isn't that bad (I just bought a box of 13 Winter Guard Infantry for my Khador army for $50). Needing to buy several more boxes that are $40 or more (including a $30 Captain that is for one, single-pose model!) just so I can start playing is where it becomes ridiculous. Obviously it would be unrealistic for them to have a $50 starter box like Warmachine, but is it that unreasonable to ask them to have a beginning army for like $150? Not counting the stupidity of the rules being nearly $100 itself (and more when you factor in a Codex), I would be okay with spending $150 to get a small force to start playing the game. It's not so much the overall cost (barring outright crooked deals like "Da Gunmob" giving 25 models for almost $400) as it is the cost just to be able to play the fething game.

You can point to the fact people have been complaining about prices for 20+ years; it doesn't invalidate that argument it just shows that GW has never given a flying feth about what its customers think or want, but has always tried to dictate from the ivory tower to the peons below.

Back on topic, the rise of the GBP on the foreign exchange markets may hurt GW's results this year.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Back on topic, the rise of the GBP on the foreign exchange markets may hurt GW's results this year.

Interesting. Can you be more specific?

Over the past six months the GBP has been trading higher against the USD than any value in the previous two years. Thus any sales in the USA are worth less as GW reports its results in the UK. The pound has been up against the Euro too.

I am not sure how much of a percentage of their entire trade is done overseas.

 Accolade wrote:

Do I think all complaints that people make are valid? No, but then they aren't making these complaints against other people in the forum, they're complaining about a company. GW doesn't need special protection, they're a company just like any other one and their primary motive is to ensure sales...I would have to assume customer satisfaction is a big part of that and there seems to be a growing population of people who are unsatisfied.

Who is saying they need special protection? I am pointing out that you guys are beating a dead horse and since you don't like hearing that, you call on the mods to protect and censor my comments.

Do you not see how making thousands of negative posts about GW isn't a complete waste of time and energy? If you are unsatisfied, then move on to another product and be happy. That's how a normal person would act. Constantly bashing a company that you choose not to do business with isn't rational.

Well then, according to the Derek Atkinson Dictionary of English, I myself am not irrational. I haven't sold my armies for 40K and LOTR. I don't hate the games, I hate the way GW is run - I.e. Kirby and his cronies.

I've abandoned plans for 2nd and 3rd 40K armies due to prices, (whilst simultaneously salivating over 3rd party minis like Victoria Miniatures). I'm bulk buying 2nd hand LOTR minis off eBay to convert. I'm converting 3rd party minis to make entire armies (plastic Gripping Beast Anglo Saxons as Rohirrim). I still haven't got round to picking up 6th ed 40K, never mind the early rip off 7th ed.


GW is driving me away through its inept policies. I'm not abandoning the games altogether, I'm simply looking for ways to make my hobby affordable, depriving GW of sales in the process.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

I am not sure how much of a percentage of their entire trade is done overseas.

UK: 13.7
Continental Europe: 16.9
North America: 15.6

Numbers are in £m

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

Do I think all complaints that people make are valid? No, but then they aren't making these complaints against other people in the forum, they're complaining about a company. GW doesn't need special protection, they're a company just like any other one and their primary motive is to ensure sales...I would have to assume customer satisfaction is a big part of that and there seems to be a growing population of people who are unsatisfied.

Who is saying they need special protection? I am pointing out that you guys are beating a dead horse and since you don't like hearing that, you call on the mods to protect and censor my comments.
.

Then don't be so fething rude and dismissive of other people's opinions.

The most name calling and abuse I've seen in this thread has come from you.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

Do I think all complaints that people make are valid? No, but then they aren't making these complaints against other people in the forum, they're complaining about a company. GW doesn't need special protection, they're a company just like any other one and their primary motive is to ensure sales...I would have to assume customer satisfaction is a big part of that and there seems to be a growing population of people who are unsatisfied.

Who is saying they need special protection? I am pointing out that you guys are beating a dead horse and since you don't like hearing that, you call on the mods to protect and censor my comments.

Do you not see how making thousands of negative posts about GW isn't a complete waste of time and energy? If you are unsatisfied, then move on to another product and be happy. That's how a normal person would act. Constantly bashing a company that you choose not to do business with isn't rational.

I think it's just as much a "waste of time and energy" for you to sit here and keep calling everyone out over it. If people are pissed over what GW is doing let them vent. If you think they are incorrect about things then provide reasons and evidence. If it is good information then people who are trying to be objective will take it into account and those who are not concerned about being objective won't. And that's their choice, don't start calling them out, it just creates unnecessary argument. Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

In my opinion, there is some considerable level of frustration going on in the 40k population. While there might be a number of prominent Dakkanauts in this thread, I see a number of one-time posts that follow the same sentiment. There are just a number of posters who enjoy posting in the biggest topics of Dakka, and this is one of them. And while I don't necessarily think these growing complaints means the death-knell of GW or 40k, I do think it is something GW needs to address.

 Accolade wrote:
I think it's just as much a "waste of time and energy" for you to sit here and keep calling everyone out over it. If people are pissed over what GW is doing let them vent. If you think they are incorrect about things then provide reasons and evidence. If it is good information then people who are trying to be objective will take it into account and those who are not concerned about being objective won't. And that's their choice, don't start calling them out, it just creates unnecessary argument.

I don't believe it is a waste of time is a single person takes the time to self reflect on what they have done and focus their time on something more important to them. If they hate anything irrationally to the point where they are posting thousands of times on a message board, then maybe they need a little push towards doing something more constructive with their time. Maybe working?

That way people who actually enjoy the hobby don't have to be bombarded with negativity all the time.

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

 Accolade wrote:
In my opinion, there is some considerable level of frustration going on in the 40k population. While there might be a number of prominent Dakkanauts in this thread, I see a number of one-time posts that follow the same sentiment. There are just a number of posters who enjoy posting in the biggest topics of Dakka, and this is one of them. While I don't necessarily think this means the death-knell of GW or 40k, I think it is a growing concern GW does need to address.

The reason why it's one of the hottest topics on dakka is because the same people keep posting the same crap over and over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The most name calling and abuse I've seen in this thread has come from you.

Maybe you should look through the thread then. Several posters have come here.. posted their opinions.. got shouted down and left. Then when i look at other threads these same posters contribute to, the same pattern exists. IE.. the heldrake thread.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

Well, I tried

Games Workshop isn't the hobby.

dereksatkinson wrote:

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Funny thing that that you mention... Its almost as if, say, customer satisfaction is an important part of any major corporation sales strategy and that when that customer satisfaction drops, then the company's business ends up suffering because of it... Some might even say that its even more important to that company's bottom line than say, .... the crash of the banking system in Cyprus...

WayneTheGame wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

So a jerk online shouts down a 13 year old who comes to an online forum and it's GW's fault?