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dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

So a jerk online shouts down a 13 year old who comes to an online forum and it's GW's fault?

Why's the jerk unhappy?

dereksatkinson wrote:
The reason why it's one of the hottest topics on dakka is because the same people keep posting the same crap over and over again.

Well correct them with considered, fact based points rather than accusing them of hating. Then address any of their counterpoints rather than shifting the goalposts.

We know you feel GW is fine and doing nothing wrong, and we've pointed out why we disagree. Address those points, don't attack users.

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

So a jerk online shouts down a 13 year old who comes to an online forum and it's GW's fault?

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

I'm not even going to touch your nonsense about anyone who complains must be some low self esteem basement dweller. Not only is that highly rude and insulting, but also baseless and has no place on this forum.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

And not for the myriad reasons that keep getting brought up and have nothing to do with the jerk but consistent views on why they feel slighted by the company?

You do realise the most vocal members on here have made articulate posts detailing their issues, and are more positive about companies and games that they feel are better, and that most are still pretty active gamers but have largely moved on from GW apart from a morbid curiosity as to how they'll collapse? And that most of these people would actually like GW to succeed, so are more frustrated than anything else about how badly it's being run?

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

Enough of the pseudo psycho analysing please, it's extremely rude to insinuate that other people you disagree with have self esteem issues.

WayneTheGame wrote:

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

ah.. so GW causes people to act like jerks. Next thing you are going to tell me that spoons make people fat.

dereksatkinson wrote:


It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

I have to say this, the negativity is brought on by GW themselves. Every company earns their good or bad reputation. It is rarely "thrust" on them by a community. I follow quite a few other forums dedicated to other game systems and nowhere is there as much negativity about a game as their is with GW. And this is NOT just a Dakka issue. The negativity is everywhere - here, on Warseer, in the blogsphere, on YouTube. You can barely go anywhere now without people complaining about how ludicrous (not expensive, but an absolute rip-off) GW pricing has become. How half-baked their rules are versus their competition. And about the extremely noticable drop in product quality over the last six months.

When you are a company charging a massive premium putting out sub-par product compared to your competition, treating your customers like a bunch of drooling idiots who will buy anything you pout out because you think they are too stupid to know any better, you deserve the negativity you earn. TSR earned it in their final years and it put them out of business. Now GW is pratically repeating the same stupid attitude and decisions that sank TSR.

Lastly, you mentioned how complaints about pricing have been there for 20+ years and will be their for 20 more. Sorry, but I have been involved in the GW HHHobby for most of that time and never have the complaints about pricing been as vocal or common as they have been the last couple of years. You can only keep increasing pricing 20% more than annual inflation every year until you just plain reach the point people can't afford a product even if they want it. GW has reached that point and it is showing in spades in their financials. In addition, they show absolutely no clue that they even recognize pricing as part of the problem as all indicators since the beginning of this years show they are just going to keep raising prices until, eventually, no one can afford their products anymore.

ONCE AGAIN - RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL!

FINAL General in thread warning - suspensions will follow from here on in.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

As long as you aren't acting like a jerk to 13 year old kids and using GW as the reason, I don't see why you'd be offended.

Herzlos wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

And not for the myriad reasons that keep getting brought up and have nothing to do with the jerk but consistent views on why they feel slighted by the company?

Nah, can't be that.

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

ah.. so GW causes people to act like jerks. Next thing you are going to tell me that spoons make people fat.

Most of the negativity towards GW *is* their own fault. Insanely high pricing, little or no care towards balance, gutting almost everything other than pure sales.. it's no wonder why there's a lot of negativity towards them, and it's not just disgruntled people with no reasons. Almost all of the complaints are legitimate, which is why this discussion exists in the first place.

You don't see half as much negativity towards any other tabletop company. Privateer Press, for example, has people who don't like some things but it's nowhere near the level of vehemence you see towards GW, and also almost all of the anti-GW sentiment is from former GW customers. Generally when ex-customers raise complaints, they tend to be pretty valid and it's a shortsighted and foolish person who pays them no heed.

dereksatkinson wrote:
Who is saying they need special protection? I am pointing out that you guys are beating a dead horse and since you don't like hearing that, you call on the mods to protect and censor my comments.

Protection? Responding to your post I had MY comments censored for the first time ever... let us say it may not be as targeted as you may think... (yes, mods, you were fair in the deletion, but more so with Derek )

Do you not see how making thousands of negative posts about GW isn't a complete waste of time and energy? If you are unsatisfied, then move on to another product and be happy. That's how a normal person would act. Constantly bashing a company that you choose not to do business with isn't rational.

Got confused a bit with the double negative but the "move-on" is a bit simplistic: many people have a rather large investment in material from GW with the understanding that in the past they were a whole different animal from what they are now.

Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

What can be considered irrational is the hope of what we write here may have any impact on GW whatsoever.

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

I do question why those same people who don't like the game, models and GW would constantly post negative comments about them though. That doesn't seem rational. I mean it's literally thousands of negative posts by some users.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

because they had a 10% drop in revenue one quarter? That's a fairly common occurrence for niche retailers.

dereksatkinson wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

because they had a 10% drop in revenue one quarter? That's a fairly common occurrence for niche retailers.

a 10% drop in one half, and a 30% drop in revenue, whilst using the fastest release rate they've ever done including a new release of their biggest seller and several expansions.

Every published figure everywhere points to a reduction in player base, and is backed up by most anecdotes. You've so far provided nothing that contradicts this evidence beyond trying to claim it's biased on invalid, with nothing to back those statements up either.

Have you got a citation for the claim that a 10% drop in revenue is common for niche retailers with about $200m annual revenue?

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

As long as you aren't acting like a jerk to 13 year old kids and using GW as the reason, I don't see why you'd be offended.

I don't. But at the same time, you are making broad sweeping generalisations and tarring everyone with the same brush who dislike the way GW operates, and therefore you're insulting me too . In my personal experience, people have been jerks to me when I express my opinion that...

GW's miniatures are too expensive for me to reasonably afford, but I like the games and I'm invested in the Lore and Universe, so I look for ways to cut costs by converting 3rd party minis and buying 2nd hand minis off eBay.

One guy on Facebook accused me of being disloyal to GW and the LOTR community, when I said that I'm converting Gripping Beast plastic Anglo Saxons to use as Rohirrim.

Besides, what 13 year olds? I don't know any 13 year old newbies who can afford GW's games at today's prices. I certainly have afforded the game when I was 13 at these prices. Do you at least accept that the huge start up costs for a new player to start 40K pose a significant barrier to new blood coming into the Hobby games? ( GW =/= a Hobby. GW =/= Miniature Wargaming, it's just one aspect of it).

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

I do question why those same people who don't like the game, models and GW would constantly post negative comments about them though. That doesn't seem rational. I mean it's literally thousands of negative posts by some users.

I think everyone here at one time loved the GW 40k universe, the models and GW. Many, like myself, were collecting their stuff over ten to twenty years. However, when the company you supported for so long then suddenly turns into something where you are seen as nothing more than a wallet to fleece, it is going to have the reactions you are currently seeing.

People want GW to change. People want GW to come to their senses. People want GW to READ these and other forums to see what is pissing off so many customers and what they can do to fix it. However, people are seeing GW retreat behind their moat and into their fortress, and completely ignoring that the enemy (their competition) is at the gates. They are seeing GW have an attitude towards their long-term customers that TSR had in the final years (that we are all a bunch of stinky, drooling, uneducated, basement dwellers who only live to give them our money). Sounds extreme, but even former GW employees who had been privy to the pricing meetings have mentioned this is EXACTLY what they think of their customers and why they think they can keep sticking it to them in pricing.

Simply put, long time supporters feel betrayed. And they are voicing their dissatisfaction. The point many should be worried about is when those of us dissatisfied finally stop posting, we'll have moved on - permanently. And that is not good for the hobby either.

Herzlos wrote:
Have you got a citation for the claim that a 10% drop in revenue is common for niche retailers with about $200m annual revenue?

Do you have access to IBD(investors business daily)? Maybe a copy of Barron's? In those types of publications (which I am not going to break copyright on) you can see revenue breakdowns for companies on a quarterly basis. You can see those numbers for thousands of companies. If you live in a relatively good size city, they should have copies on the shelves of a Barnes and Noble.

Point is though.. 10% really isn't uncommon of a drop for a topline number like revenue.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

I'm not sure whether you're surreptitiously trying to refer to me or no, but I'll take myself as an example.

I do not hate GW. I do not love GW. I praise things I deem worthy, I criticise those things I feel warrant criticism. Simple.

If the nature of my posts seems to come across as biased against GW, then that speaks not to my attitude, but to my reaction to GW products and policies.

I haven't moved on because I still play 40K, and I enjoy most games. I'm not, however, so boneheaded as to not to be able to recognise the many failings in the game, nor be frustrated that GW seem unwilling to invest the small amount of time and money it would take to affect great positive change.

You won't see me rail against prices so much, because I own plenty of models, and I enjoy seeking out and acquiring alternate models from third parties or eBay bargains should I feel compelled to add units. (I'm currently painting up a Blood Throne/Skull Cannon I picked up on eBay for £11 because I think Chariots are good in 7th - user sold it NOS, but with no pic, so it went for a song) so I've largely moved on from GW models and so I'm mostly immune.

But, to come to the meat of my post, at almost 25 years service, I'm still probably towards the lower end in terms of time invested in the wargaming hobby, especially as 10 years or so of that I wasn't involved in the gaming side at all, and just kept in touch through Black Library novels and chatting to friends who still played.

If I'd been playing for as long and as often as some of the posters here, and had invested the thousands of hours and thousands of (insert local currency here) into amassing large and/or multiple armies into one game, and then the people who were responsible for that game's legacy threw it all out of the window in a fairly clumsy attempt to prop up their financials because they'd squandered all the potential and opportunities they'd had to make a fortune out of turning it into the awesome product it could have been for want of a little more investment of time and money, and a slightly different approach to how it related to its fans and customers?

If someone tried to imply that, regarding a product I clearly loved enough to invest the thousands of hours and local currency into, I wasn't rational in being upset that something I once held in high regard had been laid low, apparently by the selfish and short sighted actions of a few people? If that person in fact implied I suffered from some sort of mental illness?

Well, I'd be quite angry at that person.

I might even shout.

Fortunately, that isn't me. I can't, however, speak for others ITT.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

Just trying to make the point that people who no longer buy their stuff can still be "allowed" to complain since they are waiting for the results of their embargo to influence GW to do what they want.

Makes me wish I started a "dare" to the dakka community to see if they could hold off until after June to buy the BRB... it at least would move into the realm of action rather than complaining.

Well, looking at the future of GW, not many buttons they can push for the next financials in 2015, any kind of "win" you can see them pulling out for this year?

 Wayshuba wrote:
I think everyone here at one time loved the GW 40k universe, the models and GW. Many, like myself, were collecting their stuff over ten to twenty years. However, when the company you supported for so long then suddenly turns into something where you are seen as nothing more than a wallet to fleece, it is going to have the reactions you are currently seeing.

I've been playing just as long as you have. I posted on a thread just like this 8 years ago on this forum. This isn't something new.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/83375.page#83954

Now.. go through that thread and tell me this isn't the exact same discussion people were having in 2006.. The differences are very minor.

 Wayshuba wrote:
Simply put, long time supporters feel betrayed. And they are voicing their dissatisfaction. The point many should be worried about is when those of us dissatisfied finally stop posting, we'll have moved on - permanently. And that is not good for the hobby either.

Or they come back an edition or two later.

Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

 azreal13 wrote:
Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

Yeah, I feel like we (Derek-yourself and I) are largely in agreement with the trends GW has and probably will continue to take, it just seems the eventual outcome is where we differ.

EDIT: clarifying I'm not trying to speak for azreal

dereksatkinson wrote:


I've been playing just as long as you have. I posted on a thread just like this 8 years ago on this forum. This isn't something new.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/83375.page#83954

Now.. go through that thread and tell me this isn't the exact same discussion people were having in 2006.. The differences are very minor.

Here is the difference I was talking about. That thread is three pages. Not a whole lot of discussion then.

Today, this thread is already over 30 pages and, while I won't link it here, a thread on another forum on GW pricing in now climbing close to the 900 page range.

See the difference? Three pages of discussion in 2006, HUNDREDS of pages of discussion in 2014. Seems like a major change in the number of people dissatisfied to me.

 azreal13 wrote:
Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

Well. their stock price is up over 100% since then and they have paid out a ton of dividends over that period so I think the company has done just fine. The question going forward is how much competition survives the next recession. I really do think a few of these gaming companies have overextended themselves and aren't running nearly as lean as GW is. And yes, I do believe GW is running things pretty lean right now. Much leaner than they used to which was the right thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wayshuba wrote:
Here is the difference I was talking about. That thread is three pages. Not a whole lot of discussion then.

Today, this thread is already over 30 pages and, while I won't link it here, a thread on another forum on GW pricing in now climbing close to the 900 page range.

See the difference? Three pages of discussion in 2006, HUNDREDS of pages of discussion in 2014. Seems like a major change in the number of people dissatisfied to me.

I didn't post on those threads but it was pretty much the consensus opinion. 900 page threads shouldn't exist on any forum and is a testament to beating a dead horse by a group of people to prove a point. Not an accurate representation of how the community feels as a whole.

You really do struggle to accept people thinking different to you don't you Derek?

900 page thread representative of a groundswell of negative emotion amongst the customer base?

"Nah-uh, it's a bunch of haters beating a dead horse!"

GW's results show their profits increased faster than their turnover which broadly indicates they became more efficient, over the past few years.

The big changeover came in 2009 to 2010 when they clearly dumped a crapton of costs boosting their profit nearly £10 M on almost no revenue increase.

Well, there's a relatively simple way to test the situation.

Count the number of discreet posters complaining about pricing in various threads on the topic in 2006 and compare it to the number of discreet posters making similar complaints in threads today.

While this will not tell us about the percentage of customers who are dissatisfied, it would let us know whether or not there was an absolute increase or decrease in the number of actual complainants.