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 Adam LongWalker wrote:
It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

In the US, yes. UK? No. Easily 90%+ of wargaming stores in the UK are GW stores. Change the definition of a wargaming store to one which runs demos, is clean and friendly and that figure probably jumps up to 99%+. If GW stores vanish then the hobby in the UK loses the vast majority of new starts for at least a decade until indies get back up and running. There'll be some word of mouth recruiting, but next to no "walk in off the high street" recruitment at all, and very few convenient places to pick up miniatures - let alone places which parents would be comfortable taking their kids to.

I think you're overestimating the dominance of GW stores now.

In Scotland, there are definitely more FLGS's than GW stores, by a ratio of at least 2:1. It may be different in areas nearer Nottingham, but the hobby store won't vanish if GW did.

How much of their sales is still GW based, I don't know, and not all of them have gaming areas either.

Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

GW was partly responsible for the death of lots of local games shops but that was in the days when GW sold a range of products. UK retail landlords and to some degree local councils bear a lot of the blame too.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.

But GW has been failing in recruitment for at least a couple of years now, and the market has grown. I don't think it can be put down to an extant customer base spending more money. I think a lot of it has come from an expanding customer base. You can go into Barnes and Noble and find X-Wing: The Miniatures Game and a slew of board games and LCGs from a variety of manufacturers. It seems to me that the board game and wargame markets are starting to blur considerably as more miniatures-heavy board games are released and more wargames are being packaged in ready-to-play box sets.

 Daedleh wrote:
In the US, yes. UK? No. Easily 90%+ of wargaming stores in the UK are GW stores. Change the definition of a wargaming store to one which runs demos, is clean and friendly and that figure probably jumps up to 99%+. If GW stores vanish then the hobby in the UK loses the vast majority of new starts for at least a decade until indies get back up and running. There'll be some word of mouth recruiting, but next to no "walk in off the high street" recruitment at all, and very few convenient places to pick up miniatures - let alone places which parents would be comfortable taking their kids to.

Anecdotally, out of the two big wargaming stores in Leeds (Patriot and Travelling Man), each have less than a quarter of their wargaming shelf space taken up by GW products, and both of them are clean, friendly and run / host demos and games nights of non-GW stuff.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.

But GW has been failing in recruitment for at least a couple of years now, and the market has grown. I don't think it can be put down to an extant customer base spending more money. I think a lot of it has come from an expanding customer base. You can go into Barnes and Noble and find X-Wing: The Miniatures Game and a slew of board games and LCGs from a variety of manufacturers. It seems to me that the board game and wargame markets are starting to blur considerably as more miniatures-heavy board games are released and more wargames are being packaged in ready-to-play box sets.

You can also go into Books-a-Million and buy the 40K RPGs - it is easier to find them in a typical mall in the US than it is to find the main game, at least when it comes to the book trade.

When Lord of the Rings was out you could buy the game at Waldenbooks - with huge visibility, at least locally. (The store manager gamed.)

Once upon a time I could buy a softbound Rogue Trader, complete with thirty beaky marines, at Booksmith.

And if we add in the games that they collaborated with Milton Bradley to produce - we could add in mall toystores such as Toys R Us and Kay Bee toys for HeroQuest, Warmaster, and Space Crusade....

The depressing thing is that on some of that we are looking back twenty years and more - and many of those bookstores and toy stores are gone.

The Maine Mall has no toy or book stores inside of the mall, though BaM has a satellite store, and Toys R Us is across the street. The world is changing....

GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

The Auld Grump

I dunno about the UK but here in Oz there are 3 stores less than an hour's drive from me. The closest is a FLGS that is almost entirely magic and a rather closed minded 40k group, I've never seen an actual demo game happen there except for a couple that me and a friend have run for Dyst Wars. They only stock GW, X Wing and the odd box from a couple of other lines without any further support there. 40k seemed to be going ok but then they decided it wasn't worth giving the club an extra 5% off and they are looking for a new sponsor and gaming space so something is happening there but it doesn't seem good.

The GW store is tiny and from what I have seen introductory games have been more along the lines of rounding up 3 new guys, giving them a marine each, explaining to hit, to wound and save rolls before leaving them alone with a shooting range (3 or 4 models set up in a line to be shot at) and a handful of dice each as 'ammo'. Then the next day they come in would be assault and I assume eventually they would be able to play a proper game. This seems really dumb to me since the single employee clearly doesn't have the time to demo games.

Then there is the sadly furthest away FLGS. I went up there just the other night to check out the late night mid week gaming and there was a Pressganger there telling me all about Warmachine, I was given a proper demo of Kings of War (and actually decided I'd repurpose a bunch of viking models and get into it) as well I was told about how there would be Dyst Wars 2.0 demos and whatnot happening this weekend when the Spartan Vanguard would be in (and I actually ended up demoing a little then and there since I had the 2 player box with me).


GW having in store demo's was great once, I remember being walked through fantasy and buying into that, but the one man stores can't do it properly any more. There is just too much demand for that one poor man's time. The current system is better than nothing, but the system PP, Spartan and now Corvus Bellie have in place is so much better. If GW vanished I am confident these companies (and others) would be able to pick up the slack since they apparently have in many areas already.

Herzlos wrote:
I think you're overestimating the dominance of GW stores now.
In Scotland, there are definitely more FLGS's than GW stores, by a ratio of at least 2:1. It may be different in areas nearer Nottingham, but the hobby store won't vanish if GW did.

Even in southern England this is true. There is 1 GW in Portsmouth and 2 (at least) independents, they aren't very good independents but still. GW still has dominance in some areas but its not the monopoly that people think that it is.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

Actually I have seen a lot of that here too. The GW in my city is in a decent enough location, and they seem to get a fair amount of foot traffic, but they are right around the corner from a proper shopping center (or 'mall' for you Americans) that sees SO MANY more people wander through.

That seems to be the general trend too. The battle bunker in Brisbane is very much out of the way, but then being a battle bunker it is probably more of a destination store than one going after passers by.
There is also one in Sydney my mate knows that opened right next door to an already successful FLGS and is apparently just completely dead while the FLGS still sees plenty of business. I have no idea if they are out of the way or not though.

 Elemental wrote:

Anecdotally, out of the two big wargaming stores in Leeds (Patriot and Travelling Man), each have less than a quarter of their wargaming shelf space taken up by GW products, and both of them are clean, friendly and run / host demos and games nights of non-GW stuff.

I wish the Manchester branch of TM had space to host demos/games. NWGC is top, but a quick after work not-GW-game in Town would be great.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

Actually I have seen a lot of that here too. The GW in my city is in a decent enough location, and they seem to get a fair amount of foot traffic, but they are right around the corner from a proper shopping center (or 'mall' for you Americans) that sees SO MANY more people wander through.

That seems to be the general trend too. The battle bunker in Brisbane is very much out of the way, but then being a battle bunker it is probably more of a destination store than one going after passers by.
There is also one in Sydney my mate knows that opened right next door to an already successful FLGS and is apparently just completely dead while the FLGS still sees plenty of business. I have no idea if they are out of the way or not though.

I've always found the GW locations oddly out of the way.

GW Oslo, Norway is right in the middle of downtown, within two blocks of the government buildings and the main shopping street, but somehow on a corner with the least foot traffic in the whole city.

GW Nice, France is also downtown, a couple of minutes walk from the beach promenade, but in a quiet street with little to no foot traffic and no other shops.

GW Shanghai (Puxi) moved from a shopping centre in Xintiandi (very touristy place, right next to the Communist Party museum) to a residential area about 1km down the road. It's right next to a metro stop and easily accessible, but on a street with close to zero foot traffic.

GW Shanghai (Pudong) is tucked away in a shopping centre in the middle of nowhere (or at least as close to nowhere as you can get in a city with 23m people).

GW Union Landing (Bay Area, CA) is in a place where most Bay Area residents wouldn't just happen to be hanging around, and in an area full of potential customers with high salaries, it's not exactly in a hot spot.

GW Copenhagen... Well, I had twelve hours to kill downtown once and nothing better to do than buy some plastic crack, and I couldn't even find the place, even with a google maps printout. I had some roasted chestnuts and a beer instead.


The UK locations are much better (at least the ones I'v visited; Oxford Street, London, Metro Centre and (now apparently closed) Nelson Street, Newcastle, and Arndale Centre, Manchester), but the non-UK locations I've been to are all in weird locations that seem to be predicated on the assumption that they are destination stores, which doesn't really seem to make for a lot of recruitment, especially when taken in context of GW's rather idiosyncratic view of marketing.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a hater and Cypriot banks something something Forbes.

Graphite wrote:
Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

The ones I'm aware of off the top of my head:

Common Ground Games - Stirling
Worlds at War - Livingston
Knightly Gaming - Lanark
Static Games - Glasgow
6stohit - Edinburgh

I'm sure there's at least another one in Glasgow, around Victoria park, and another one in Edinburgh near the Parliament buildings. But I do most of my buying at the 3 main shows (Carronade, Claymore and Targe).

In terms of Official GW stores, I believe all we have now is Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Carlisle. The Glasgow and Edinburgh stores are pretty big and in Key locations, I've never seen the other 2.

Falkirk's still going, and I'm pretty sure Stirling and Dundee are as well. 6stohit is pretty new - been meaning to drop in there.

Maybe a business minded person can help me out with this thought. Isn't it likely that as GW withdraws from the FLGS market that new FLGSs will naturally develop to fill the niche?

Even if the recruitment numbers drop for a couple years, there will still be a large existing player base for wargaming in general. Those existing players will need a base, so to speak.

Once new independents start to pop up, if they play their cards right and can make the kind of shops GWs USED to be, then the recruitment will start up again.

The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

TLR Wargaming long predates GW. THe market would notice the loss of GW, but it would survive it. Nature, and business abhors a vacuum.

 Kyrolon wrote:
The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

More newb friendly for sure, but also attacking an entrenched market. There are two general reasons why people will stick with GW as long as possible:

1) They've already invested money in it, and don't want to put more money into another game, even if it would cost them less to get started than in a GW game; it's the perception of starting a new game, especially when one is used to a new game or army costing hundreds.

2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater. Of course that goes for any other game that you try to suggest to a group dead set in their ways. Might be different with an established wargames club where it's implied that you'll be exposed to a variety of games, but for the typical group of people that congregate at the game store on "Miniatures Night", who may or may not know each other, it's a much harder sell to say "Hey everyone I've started Bolt Action, and you should too!".

 Kyrolon wrote:
Maybe a business minded person can help me out with this thought. Isn't it likely that as GW withdraws from the FLGS market that new FLGSs will naturally develop to fill the niche?

Even if the recruitment numbers drop for a couple years, there will still be a large existing player base for wargaming in general. Those existing players will need a base, so to speak.

Once new independents start to pop up, if they play their cards right and can make the kind of shops GWs USED to be, then the recruitment will start up again.

The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

TLR Wargaming long predates GW. THe market would notice the loss of GW, but it would survive it. Nature, and business abhors a vacuum.

Where there's a market with an opportunity, there's either a business or an entrepreneur to fill it. If there's truly going to be a vacuum in the UK like people are suggesting there would be, I would even go as far as to suspect that there might be some people out there with a lot of capital that could afford to open 2-3 stores as a small chain to cash in on all the open turf.

Graphite wrote:
Falkirk's still going, and I'm pretty sure Stirling and Dundee are as well. 6stohit is pretty new - been meaning to drop in there.

I didn't realise they existed, good spot.

Looking at the store locator, within 50 miles of Glasgow there are 4 GW's and 14 independent retailers. That's only the ones listed/stocking GW stuff, there will be others that don't (like Static Games). So we're at 4 independents to 1 GW, albeit most of those independents appear to be art stores with a GW section.

6's to hit is great - the shop itself is tiny but has a huge amount of stuff wedged in there, new and 2nd hand. There's a nice cafe above it and a gaming area downstairs with 2 walls of board games that are free to use (something like £2/day gaming fee).

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kyrolon wrote:
The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

More newb friendly for sure, but also attacking an entrenched market. There are two general reasons why people will stick with GW as long as possible:

1) They've already invested money in it, and don't want to put more money into another game, even if it would cost them less to get started than in a GW game; it's the perception of starting a new game, especially when one is used to a new game or army costing hundreds.

2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater. Of course that goes for any other game that you try to suggest to a group dead set in their ways. Might be different with an established wargames club where it's implied that you'll be exposed to a variety of games, but for the typical group of people that congregate at the game store on "Miniatures Night", who may or may not know each other, it's a much harder sell to say "Hey everyone I've started Bolt Action, and you should too!".

3) They enjoy playing GW games.

4) Do not consider GW games to be too expensive.

There are more but that's 2 more obvious reasons why a gamer would stick with GW games. You're suggesting they are stuck with them and that would be rather dismissive.

Herzlos wrote:

Graphite wrote:
Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

The ones I'm aware of off the top of my head:

Common Ground Games - Stirling
Worlds at War - Livingston
Knightly Gaming - Lanark
Static Games - Glasgow
6stohit - Edinburgh

I'm sure there's at least another one in Glasgow, around Victoria park, and another one in Edinburgh near the Parliament buildings. But I do most of my buying at the 3 main shows (Carronade, Claymore and Targe).

In terms of Official GW stores, I believe all we have now is Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Carlisle. The Glasgow and Edinburgh stores are pretty big and in Key locations, I've never seen the other 2.

Static Games in Glasgow barely has the room to swing a cat, nevermind play a game of something (unless there's some secret gaming room, that is) and is far more of a Magic The Gathering, Board Games and RPG store than Wargaming. I genuinely don't think you'd be able to buy enough in that store to build a complete viable force for any major wargaming range. Also, I've heard from many people that 'friendly' may not always apply to the store...

Additionally, you've left off Games Workshop Ayr - which still exists as far as GW's website is concerned.

 Compel wrote:
I genuinely don't think you'd be able to buy enough in that store to build a complete viable force for any major wargaming range.

Neither can you in any GW store since a large amount of their stock has been moved to "direct only"! /bazinga!

WayneTheGame wrote:
2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater.

People were saying the exact same thing when Flames of War first came out. And yet it still managed to grow and spread all over the world.

Games are social things. And people who want other people to try a game they like tend to not expect people to invest beforehand. The successful promoters of their new interest will show up on gaming night with both sides, terrain and quick reference cards and run games for interested players. The demo process works. It's why GW uses it in their retail stores.

Historical miniature gaming hasn't gone away with GW's dominance. GW has largely been a feeder for historical gaming. Teenagers get into 40k and then when their tastes mature, they often move onto other things. 40k is targeted at 14 year old boys, after all. Flames of War arriving at GW's height in 2002 was timed perfectly with the maturation of the children of the baby boom generation. And since then we've had 12 years of historical gaming being more and more on people's radar and in wider hobby distribution. To the point where we are now at a time where it can be people's first experience of miniature gaming rather than having them first go through the GW cash grinder to get there.

And the people behind it are either ex-GW or keenly aware of how to use GW's marketing model to offer a complete experience. I never thought I'd walk into a local store and see people playing an English Civil War battle, but the store brought in one of Warlord's For King & Country starters and someone grabbed it instead of grabbing something from GW, Privateer or Battlefront. The guy painted up both sides and has been running games. And now the store has the occasional special order and is stocking a box or two and keeps the rulebook in stock.

The thing to remember in this thread is that GW's marketing model works when you have the right combination of volunteer fan promoters, demo games and retail support. Other companies have figured out how to use it and have even improved on it by adding single player starter sets that offer a complete gaming experience.

GW's competition has figured out exactly what GW did with 40k and WFB in the 90s during their time of greatest year over year growth. And it works for sci-fi, fantasy and historical subjects alike. It would work for GW too if they went back to it.

.

Well of course I agree, and I know those games are growing. Just if you were to walk into the largest FLGS in my area and talk about Flames of War, you'd likely not get a response as it seems people there aren't interested. I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Naturally this differs in different areas, my point was that while those games are growing, they're also contingent on people wanting to play them. Having demo games to show it without investment is good, but it still doesn't solve the issue if people are interested but don't want to buy another army for another game, or if they just aren't interested in the demo game. 40k is still ubiquitous; it's shrinking to be sure but depending on the area a lot of other games haven't made an impact because people are too caught up in 40k to bother to notice other games out there. However I have heard the store has started to stock Bolt Action, so maybe there's hope

Thanks for the replies, and I agree for the most part. A few of you though applied parameters to my thoughts that weren't there. I agree as long as GW is around there will be those who play. Heck, I still play from time to time even though I have yet to get 7th edition and only have one infrequent opponent.

Where a couple of you have either misread or not acknowledged what I was trying to knock around as an idea was what happens in a world with NO GW?

It has been implied that gaming in Britain at least would die without GW. I'd posit that it would not since it existed before GW, and a niche that needs filling will be filled.

So, without arguing over whether people will move AWAY from an existing GW, will players move to a new game if GW went away? I think history proves they would.

One addendum to what I said earlier, brought up by a couple people re: historical vs sci fi gaming. World of Tanks seems pretty popular, along with a lot of the other free to play historical computer games as well as regular titles like Call of Duty etc. The historical gaming market, via easy to learn, easy to start games can take advantage of that exposure of the younger crowd to WW2 as a gaming setting.

In addition, IIRC, Rick Priestly is looking at using the Bolt Action style game system for Gates of Antares. If that proves to be a system that I can use to "roll my own" stats, then I can leave the 40K rules behind for good, because I much prefer the mechanics of Bolt Action.

They just need to release "official" Game of Thrones rules for people to be interested in historical hahahahaha.

Buy the rights for GoT, get a good historical rules set and reskin it and ride the wave of fad like a Targaryen on a dragon. Boom. I mean, there are already myriads of people making GoT armies and using historical rules.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

At one store I go to every couple months, they started WM/H demos on the Warhammer Fantasy day when attendance for WFB dropped. And the store advertised it. So those who played 40k didn't have to give up their 40k gaming time to try it out. If they were interested, they could just come on the different night to check it out. Then people started meeting on the 40k day and playing on an open table. Then the WM/H grew until the 40k play on that day was a minority.

The 40k players who react negatively to someone coming and trying to get them to switch gaming are right to do so. You never, ever, ever, ever attempt to promote one game by trashing another and you certainly don't try to directly disrupt a previously organized gaming night. If it's not an organized game night but simply open tables and people happen to really play 40k a lot, then the way to break in there takes two people. Who show up and play eachother and offer the opportunity to others who express interest to participate, but not try to sell people who are there to play another game.

However I have heard the store has started to stock Bolt Action, so maybe there's hope

So what the store needs to do now is to start up a Bolt Action night or day at a different time than the 40k game and find someone interested in running demos (be it staff or volunteer). Asking people to choose between something they like and something that's unknown is stupid.

 frozenwastes wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

The way to go in this situation requires two people. They simply agree to play the chosen game at the generic miniatures night and they don't try to sell people on it. If anyone asks about it, they can invite them to try it later or whatever, but they don't go there to try to run demos for people who already have a miniature game that meets their needs. What you want are the 40k players who are starting to get bored or maybe want a change.

In the past, such potential customers were kept in the GW ecosystem by games like BFG, Warmaster, Epic, Necromunda, Bloodbowl, etc.,. GW offered these "change of pace" products that kept people buying from them. Now other companies pretty much have these market sown up and in many places, the "change of pace" games become the main game.

If you're interested in an alternative in a GW dominated area, the first step is to use the internet to find a like minded individual and then go to the generic miniature nights and play the game in question to actually play it and show that it is being played, not to sell people something they don't need or want. Oh, and painted miniatures. If you're going to show case something, grey primer horde is a bad way to go.

Demo sales are for people who's needs are not being met, not those that already have what they are looking for.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

It's actually pretty easy to get a MTG player to try out WM/H. Just show them the cards, and explain how synergies work. and blam...."its just like 3D MTG son"....

 notprop wrote:

3) They enjoy playing GW games.

4) Do not consider GW games to be too expensive.

There are more but that's 2 more obvious reasons why a gamer would stick with GW games. You're suggesting they are stuck with them and that would be rather dismissive.

Enjoy playing is subjective, but too expensive, rather the value of, is not. We have plenty of folks here, including myself, who make good wages/salaries who can look at a $140 Imperial Knight and know that's a rip off. When you have folks in the industry who also make models stating that their kits are highway robbery, you know something is wrong. When I talk to friends who model for modeling sake, they all snuff at GW for being incredibly overpriced.

If you don't find the modern trend of stealth price increases and the lower of value gross (10 Avengers -> 5 Avengers + price increased, etc), then sure, that's on you. But the measurable value of Games Workshop products has greatly diminished no matter your opinion on the matter. It just simply costs more per model and for rules than it ever did, far outstripping inflation or anything to do with material costs.