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You've got scout sentinels which can outflank deep on the field. Or valkyries and vendettas which are real tough flyers that can drop your PCS onto an objective in the late game. You could always use a Taurox Prime...

The problem with scions is their very short range. Even when dropped in the middle of enemy lines, they're probably not going to get into rapid fire range. If they could use a vox for long range orders from a CCS then they'd be much more practical. They're best at focusing on eliminating a single enemy unit or taking a single objective. They're particularly good at eliminating devastators, crisis suits, and aspect warriors. I plan to run them with volley guns and/or plasma guns. If you can get them on an objective with two volley guns they'll be a great defensive unit that will be hard to displace.

I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

It causes Tigurius' head to explode from inside his rhino.

But yeah, marine player in question here. Having had time to think about the list, dropping the camp netting on the vanquisher for some vox casters or a longer ranged CCS load out may have been good.

It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

I disagree, I think the psychic phase has a lot of potential for AM. Wyrdvanes are a great way to throw psychic dice at divination powers, and even if they perils in the most terrible way then you're just out a 60 point unit.

Astropaths are crazy powerful for 25 points, dishing out really powerful buffs or shrieks.

Primaris Psykers are possibly our first chance at a combat beast, using biomancy, I want to run them attached to guard blobs and bullgryns. Endurance is crazy good when cast on either unit.

I would ally in grey knights for better psychic phase stuff instead of wyrdvanes.

For the same price as 3 wyrdvanes you can get a henchmen squad in a rhino. With coteaz they are now two objective secured units and a extra dice to boot. Also coteaz is 25 points more expensive than a level two and comes with all the goodies.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

I disagree, I think the psychic phase has a lot of potential for AM. Wyrdvanes are a great way to throw psychic dice at divination powers, and even if they perils in the most terrible way then you're just out a 60 point unit.

Astropaths are crazy powerful for 25 points, dishing out really powerful buffs or shrieks.

Primaris Psykers are possibly our first chance at a combat beast, using biomancy, I want to run them attached to guard blobs and bullgryns. Endurance is crazy good when cast on either unit.

They're not my thing. I've played about 10 games since 7th dropped and I initially started under the pretense that AM psychic units could really even the playing field; not so for me. If they're not periling and annihilating the whole unit they're in, they're being DtW'd by Demons that have 3x as many dice. This doesn't make the psychic selections in the codex bad or anything, just not something I'm going to field, which is a shame because I REALLY wanted to finish making my custom Wyrdvanes.

This coming from a guy who uses Rough Riders, regardless of how terrible they are!

 tankboy145 wrote:
I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

Its all fun and games until you play Tau, really. I've had that amount of foot infantry (all with camo cloaks, no less) blown off the board in 2-3 turns by a 900 point Tau army.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It causes Tigurius' head to explode from inside his rhino.

But yeah, marine player in question here. Having had time to think about the list, dropping the camp netting on the vanquisher for some vox casters or a longer ranged CCS load out may have been good.

Thats true if tiggy get sucked into the warp his first psychic power then maybe the game would have gone differently lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

Its all fun and games until you play Tau, really. I've had that amount of foot infantry (all with camo cloaks, no less) blown off the board in 2-3 turns by a 900 point Tau army.

I will agree Tau probably will give this list a run for its money. But I will say with the wyverns and the eradicator I will certainly be taking a toll on their infantry rather quickly. The AV14 is also rather difficult for tau to deal with so my TC squad will be aiming for their big riptides and with the shoot and smoke ability I will hopefully get 2 turns of successful shooting before their big units start really returning fire.

I do like the suggestion on a CCS for orders.

Any other suggestions on the list?

Few opinion questions about this edition.

Do you think stacks of heavy weapons teams are out since prescience got harder to pull off?

Do you think the psykers still have a place in IG or are they out now?

Enginseers with servitors going to be more useful to keep those vehicles going? (I like the model)

ADL still almost an autotake now that the quadgun can only shoot fliers w/o snapshotting?

Heavy weapons teams were out because str 6 volley of fire is a thing.

Psykers are in, but you need to supplement them, most likely with Grey knights at larger sizes.

Enginseers are meh, but I would like them for being able to keep mobile and still fire certain weapons.

It was an auto take to keep things alive, however I would argue there are other options now

Is it at all worth it to upgrade Vets to Grenadiers since its cheaper now?

Thanks!

If grenadiers is the armor one then it can be if you have the points or are using plasma with them.

Anyone been using creed? If so what warlord tables do you usually roll on? I've been thinking strategic table, but may end up going with Pask for WL.

With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I think grenadiers is worth it because it gives them a save against so many weapons, especially if the transport is destroyed and they spend some time out in the open.

 Goldphish wrote:
With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I had thought about this as well. Only down sides I can see is that less units can fire out the top, the side lasgun ports only fire at bs3, chimera became more expensive.

Bonuses are that the guys inside take a LD test to see if they have to snap fire if they are shaken or stunned, vehicles are harder to kill, vets are less expensive.

I suppose it depends on what else is in the list, chimera vets lack long range fire power/anti tank. I would also assume you probably have hull heavy flamers to deal with horde unless you are probably taking wyverns or something else.

Also any of the doctrines are very much useful now that they are cheaper, I havent run the carapace armor yet but I typically run a vet squad with a lascannon, 3 plasma guns, and forward sentries. Usually the first turn or 2 the lascannons are aiming for enemy armor and once they are close enough the plasma guns start to take toll on the opponent and thats usually in some effective cover.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I had thought about this as well. Only down sides I can see is that less units can fire out the top, the side lasgun ports only fire at bs3, chimera became more expensive.

Bonuses are that the guys inside take a LD test to see if they have to snap fire if they are shaken or stunned, vehicles are harder to kill, vets are less expensive.

I suppose it depends on what else is in the list, chimera vets lack long range fire power/anti tank. I would also assume you probably have hull heavy flamers to deal with horde unless you are probably taking wyverns or something else.

Also any of the doctrines are very much useful now that they are cheaper, I havent run the carapace armor yet but I typically run a vet squad with a lascannon, 3 plasma guns, and forward sentries. Usually the first turn or 2 the lascannons are aiming for enemy armor and once they are close enough the plasma guns start to take toll on the opponent and thats usually in some effective cover.

Personally I have always been and basically from this point probably always be a believer of a balance of Russes and Chimeras per the AV14 wall tactic I use.

As someone that has played a lot of pure mech in the past with Marines, I can say that it works like this: you come up against something particularly threatening? You've got one chance to obliterate it before it rolls over you. Mech doesn't give you highly reliable and thorough methods of dispatching most things either - 3 flamers will hurt a horde, but to the point where it will be safe for that Vet squad? Probably not. Meltas/Plasmas will maul an MC but not kill it outright unless you double or triple team it (if you want it assured, definitely the latter) facing up against it, and even melta's can fail when you least expect it.

Contrast with a Pask Russ squadron - its easy to assemble a bastion of firepower that is extremely reliable and has greater reach, while also protecting the advance with AV14 and being an anchor that will last several turns at least.

In addition, I don't understand the logic in a Mech CCS anymore. The greatest appeals before were filling the mandatory HQ slot and getting more specials, but now all you're really getting is specials (a downgrade in firepower from Russes) and orders which are going to be operating in the short range - hence your CCS needs to be closer, hence you're easier giving up Slay the Warlord, etc.

To be honest, the best appeal I can think of is the Regimental Standard, for all those bad occasions where you get de-meched and a squad routs, or you have squads get caught out or taking morale at crucial times, but you're going to have get the specials and the voxes as well to make the investment worth it, and by then you've got a lot of points down the drain on upgrades.

I would agree completely, I think in most mech lists russes should be your HQ.

I hav been playing pask as my hq for a few games now. He is a lot of fun. My tank commander squad is two punishes with heavy bolters all around, dozer blade, and camo gear. (been plating a lot of 2500 point games). I have been putting a squad of five bullgryn (slab shields) in front of pask. That is a nice cover save out in the open. Also the bullgryn pick up assault units trying to attack the tanks.

I like the tank commander option. It gives you 4/5 heavy support slots. The bread and butter of the IG/AM.

I'm a guard guy, just started playing seriously the last few months. How do you guys deal with riptides?

Monster hunting lascannons/plasmaguns

 TankerNick86 wrote:
I'm a guard guy, just started playing seriously the last few months. How do you guys deal with riptides?

I'm not an AM player, but I am a Tau player and play against AM for what it is worth. A good bet is a Punisher Pask. 20 Bs4 Preferred Enemy S5 Rendig Shots puts 3 Wounds at a 2+ and 3 Rends at a 5++. The HBolters are just Gravy. Or an executioner Pask could work depending on how Preferred Enemy and Blasts works out.

Also, Punisher Pask is vicious against Wraithknights.

Most Tau lists, especially Riptides are really terrible at handling AV14 at range. With the changes to Vehicles it's even harder. Generally, it's going to be more effective to take out the Riptides Markerlight Support first. Without Markerlights an IA Riptides is less scary to AM at range than a stock Russ that fails to fire 1/6 times, unless you are within Secondary weapon range. Trying to focus down a Riptide early may cost you as the rest of their army can survive long enough to impact the game.

Vendettas will also work, but take time to widely down its Ho, if the 3++ Nova Shield is up, you are better off targeting another unit that turn. Let them burn off wounds with their Nova reactor thinking they need defenses. Tank Shicking can be quite effective in a pinch, you have a 14% of breaking the Riptide on each LE.

Melta and Olasma Vets work. If you've got access to Monster Hunter, anything can work.

If you have access to any form of Ld attack ie Telepahy, that will do very well.

Also, if you can pressure them and catch them, even a handful of Guardsman can Tarpit a Riptide in CC, heck, they even have a decent chance to break and run down a Riptide.

Thanks for the insight gentlemen. I'm sure I'll be back for more advice!

Which Leman Russes do you guys all prefer? I thought I would ask as I am getting a whole bunch of pre-made Guard soon and that includes 6 Leman Russ tanks; 4 Battle Tanks and 2 Executioners. Is the standard Russ worthwhile as a generalist? In larger games I'm definitely going to be running (once I get him) Pask in a Punisher with two Executioners for support, but not sure on which Russes I should take otherwise. Cheers for any input.

Standard Russes may not be *that* great, but they are definitely better than nothing at all.

The problem with standard Russes is that they're priced in relation to the Basilisk

Which is overpriced

Best Russes are probably:

Exterminator with Multi-Meltas, +/- Lascannon
-Cheap
-Multi-Meltas
-Versatile in a good way, does an alright job of killing flyers even

Executioner +/- Plasma Cannons and Lascannon (but never, ever take PC sponsons if you haven't got Pask or Kurov's Aquila buff)
-Most points efficient in terms of anti-infantry firepower
-Best against MC's, which IG tend to struggle against

Eradicator with Multi-Meltas
-Cheap
-Absurdly killy against Tau and Necrons and the like where you make a joke out of their entrenched guys
-Also hilarious against Xeno Bikes
x. Main gun is pretty crappy against the odd army, though this can be said for Vanquishers and Exterminators too sadly

Vanquisher with Lascannon, Multi-Meltas if your list is lacking hardcore anti-vehicle
-Can kill any vehicle
-Puts 1-2 wounds on an MC a turn
x. Sucks against infantry

Punisher, with Pask or a Tank Commander piloting it
-Piles on wounds against infantry fast
-Powerful MC/Vehicle killer with Pask
x. Extremely short range means you have to be exceedingly careful

The others:

Leman Russ Battle Tank (maybe with sponson Multi-Meltas for opportunities)
-Can camp wherever it pleases so long as LOS is considered due to good range
x. Expensive
x. Main gun is fairly mediocre, poor against MC's and garbage against Termies
x. Can't fire other guns at full BS

Leman Russ Demolisher (maybe with sponson Multi-Meltas for opportunities)
-Doubles out heavy T5 infantry
-Kills all forms of infantry
x. Overpriced
x. Extremely short range
x. Above two negatives are not a good combination at all

The more you talk about the Exterminator Mr. Omega, the more I'm tempted to give it a try; the amount of shots it brings down range is nice, but I believe it is the 'average' strength and standard AP value that makes it a pass to me for the pie plate LRBT. getting my Str7AP4 shots from a HWT.

Safe to assume you're using Pask with yours as to take advantage of the rending rule?

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The more you talk about the Exterminator Mr. Omega, the more I'm tempted to give it a try; the amount of shots it brings down range is nice, but I believe it is the 'average' strength and standard AP value that makes it a pass to me for the pie plate LRBT. getting my Str7AP4 shots from a HWT.

Safe to assume you're using Pask with yours as to take advantage of the rending rule?

Nah, I field it in HS a single tank (could pair it I guess) with Lascannon/MM sponsons. 7 high strength shots that do a fairly good job at putting hurt on MC's, do high damage to vehicles and buildings and put on a few more wounds on infantry. Its part of the lower cost tank triumvirate wherein you've got Eradicators, Exterminators and Vanquishers, with infantry killing being to the left and vehicle killing being to the right in that list.

Generally I already have both enough anti-infantry (Pask's squadron) and enough AT (Vendettas, melta Vets) that the Exterminator is an add on that fills in the gaps. It's to be noted that I play aggressively with my strategy, if you were to gunline defensively the Eradicator/Vanquisher begin to hold more appeal as you just have a superior autocannon platform with the Exterminator at that point.

I might eventually try Pask as an Exterminator but right now I think taking advantage of his squadron's anti-infantry potential is more efficient, preferred enemy Executioners/Pask-Punisher builds are brutal and are the rare sort of unit that can reliably wipe another unit from existence a turn.

I think the exterminator has the benefit of its AV 14 platform, reliable accuracy, movement & the ability to field hull & sponson weapons. But I'm finding I'm running out of HS slots.

Are Bassies good/bad?

I generally run my TC HQ's as vanquishers. The bs4 is really helpful to the vanquisher. Generally he is also kitted with a LC/ MM. Ive almost always had an executioner with plasma sponsons as a wing tank to this vanquisher.

Punishers also have been my TC's before but I usually always have one vanquisher before I choose a punisher.

In my heavy support I usually have found a new love for the eradicator with heavy bolters all around. The eradicator puts out a good weight of fire that also insta kills t3 units and ignores cover and the tank flat out kills anything with a 4+ save.

Ive been tempted to run the eradicator with plasma sponsons so that it can fire 2 small blast(if it doesnt over heat) and one large blast as well as a heavy bolter, whats everyones view on this tank and my second idea with the plasma??

Also Ive been using dozer blades more often? anyone else do so since they are cheap????