Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Punisher has a higher chance of exploding AV12 to death, as well as glancing it.

The Punisher has a 14% chance to explode AV13 on average, versus the Vanquisher's 19%, but the Punisher will put 2 glances on AV13 a turn versus the Vanquisher's 1 glance per turn.

The Punisher has a 0% chance of exploding AV 14, versus the the Vanquisher's 15% chance, but it puts one glance on AV14 per turn versus the Vanquisher's .5.

So honestly, the Vanquisher only holds its own against the Punisher against AV14. However, this isn't counting Multi-Melta sponsons (who's 24'' range compliments the Punisher cannon's 24 inch range perfectly), or the increased AI capabilities of the Punisher cannon versus the Vanquisher cannon.

Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

Sentry vets are my go-to gunline unit, 3 snipers and 1 auto cannon, they're cheap and effective. Plant them in cover or on objectives, they can hit infantry at long range and the snare mines make them surprisingly resilient.

 TheSilo wrote:
Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

True, however the games starts with you 24'' away from your opponents' deployment zone. 48'' range becomes irrelevant pretty quick in the average game, and most of the units that can stay 24'' away from you aren't going to care about a single Str8 armorbane shot anyway.

You have a 21% chance of blowing up an AV12 vehicle, and a 19% chance of blowing up an AV13 vehicle. That's not very efficient.

So, I keep hearing about the Vanquisher/Executioner combo for an HQ tank. Am I imagining things or is this a viable tank combination?

It's been several months since I last played 40k and I am trying to get back in. I had a couple questions that hopefully can be answered.

1. Are small squads of Wrydvane psykers running around buffing units a viable strategy?

2. Would a platoon be a viable addition to an otherwise mechanized army for backfield objective holding?

Both of these questions are in regards to a list I am trying to build. I am running kind of fluffy (several different regiments fighting together) so I understand some sacrifices will be made but I am curious to the responses to both questions.

With the new warp-charge system, I wouldn't consider Wyrdvane Psykers worth it anymore. They're ML1 which means you'll be sucking out more WC's just to use most of their powers then you'll be putting into your pool.

I love platoons, personally. At least one can fit in any list.

Better off getting a primaris psyker than a wyrdvane. Unless you are summoning daemons then go with the wyrdvanes. Platoons are amazing. 2 or 3 infantry squads with a priest and they are fearless objective sitting machines.

My favorite setup is a PCS w/4 flamers
3 infantry squads w/3 meltas
Priest and lvl2 Primaris Psyker
I go TK with the psyker hoping for levitation.

With the ability to take unlimited primary detachments, isn't taking a CCS and 2 vet squads literally now just a hair more expensive version of a PCS and 2 regular squads...but with BS4 and a lot more options?

Ok, good to know that Wyrdvanes are considered not worth it. And I am happy to hear that platoons are still good.

Here is the list I mentioned. Obviously, it will need some work, but I am happy with how it is looking so far.

Total: 1748

HQ:

Tank Commander:
Vanquisher: 178
Commander
Lascannon
Relic plating

Executioner: 155
Heavy bolter

Commissar: 25

Elites:

Wrydvane Psykers: 60
5 men

Wyrdvane Psykers: 60
5 men

Troops:
Platoon:
PCS: 40
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Veterans: 120
3x plasma guns
Carapace armor
Chimera: 65
ML/HF

Veterans: 120
3x plasma guns
Carapace armor
Chimera: 65
ML/HF

Veterans: 105
3x melta
Carapace
Chimera:65
ML/HF

Veterans: 105
3x melta
Carapace
Chimera:65
ML/HF

Heavy Support:
Demolisher: 170
Heavy Bolter

Demolisher: 170
Heavy Bolter

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

True, however the games starts with you 24'' away from your opponents' deployment zone. 48'' range becomes irrelevant pretty quick in the average game, and most of the units that can stay 24'' away from you aren't going to care about a single Str8 armorbane shot anyway.

You have a 21% chance of blowing up an AV12 vehicle, and a 19% chance of blowing up an AV13 vehicle. That's not very efficient.

The Punisher is massively flawed for 4 reasons.

1) If the tank is immobilised, the the tank stops being relevant for the most part with its absurdly short range. Sometimes it can just be flat out ignored or avoided.
2) Its not adaptable to change across the board. If you start losing on the other flank, or desperately need more firepower there, you're really going to have problems.
3) You need to glance vehicles to death
4) It has greater pressure to do well.

If my math is correct, you're doing roughly 4 glances against AV12, (good) but only 2.7 against AV13, (fairly good, though technically not exactly reliable) and only 1.3 against AV14. (trash)

That's mostly good, so you should take the Pask Punisher for AT, right? No. The Vanquisher can be placed anywhere on a 6x4 board and always be in range. It has 72'' range, not 48'', though in fairness, even at 48'', using a hull Lascan, placed in the middle of your deployment you should be able to hit everything or be in immediate threat range of anything.

Meanwhile, if the Punisher screws up, that could potentially (probably even) spell death for the tank then and there. Say you're trying to gun down an assault transport, Imperial Knight, Walker or MC. In the following opponent's turn you're screwed if you failed to kill it outright. (Actually, you're potentially still screwed even if you killed the assault transport as its contents could still reach you)The Vanquisher doesn't have great maths on paper, but its a reliable tank that is way more safe to use.

This is also all if the Punisher is piloted by Pask, of course, and if you're taking Pask you're now putting all your other longer range tanks in the squadron potentially in a more risky position during games so his points aren't wasted. The Punisher is just mediocre at best outside of as a TC or Pask himself. The Demolisher is just naff and too expensive. The Vanquisher on the other hand is viable in a Pask/TC squadron as not being just piloted by the TC/Pask himself.

The proof is in the pudding with the Pask Punisher.

You don't bring it to hunt armour, you bring it to liquify hordes, GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, and MCs. The fact that it can open up AV10-11 like wet paper boxes is icing on the cake. The ability to strip a few hull points from AV12-14 when you literally have nothing else to shoot just means you will never not have a target (unless, as you mentioned, you're completely out of range).

It's expensive and short ranged, absolutely, but the value it brings to the table on an AV14 chassis is pretty impressive. Yes it's absolutely viable to bring a Vanquisher instead, and you will definitely put the hurt on heavy armour with that, but that doesn't make it 100% of the time the better choice.

To date, I've never been disappointed with a Pask Punisher and a brace of Executioner squadmates. Maybe I'll be enlightened when I play a few more games, but for now it's pretty stellar. Of course, YMMV.

DoW

The interesting thing I have noticed in the Vanquisher vs. Punisher debate is that people are very invested in their choices even though, fundamentally, they do very different things. The vanquisher is dedicated anti-tank while the punisher is semi-dedicated anti-infantry. Really I think that the choice of command tank comes down to what the rest of the lists armored support looks like. I run two demolishers in almost all of my lists (partially because I just know how to play those tanks and partially because I like the models) so my short range firepower is covered, so I lean towards running a vanquisher as my HQ (I also like to run him with a stock Russ, although I am going to try running an executioner instead) because I need long range fire support. Really, the decision for what you run as your HQ comes down to the needs of your list and personal preference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PolecatEZ wrote:
With the ability to take unlimited primary detachments, isn't taking a CCS and 2 vet squads literally now just a hair more expensive version of a PCS and 2 regular squads...but with BS4 and a lot more options?

Almost every tournament I have seen is limited the amount of detachments you can take. At least locally, the limit seems to be one combined arms detachment and either a formation or an ally in the allies slot.

Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The Punisher is massively flawed for 4 reasons.

1) If the tank is immobilised, the the tank stops being relevant for the most part with its absurdly short range. Sometimes it can just be flat out ignored or avoided.
2) Its not adaptable to change across the board. If you start losing on the other flank, or desperately need more firepower there, you're really going to have problems.
3) You need to glance vehicles to death
4) It has greater pressure to do well.

If my math is correct, you're doing roughly 4 glances against AV12, (good) but only 2.7 against AV13, (fairly good, though technically not exactly reliable) and only 1.3 against AV14. (trash)

That's mostly good, so you should take the Pask Punisher for AT, right? No. The Vanquisher can be placed anywhere on a 6x4 board and always be in range. It has 72'' range, not 48'', though in fairness, even at 48'', using a hull Lascan, placed in the middle of your deployment you should be able to hit everything or be in immediate threat range of anything.

Meanwhile, if the Punisher screws up, that could potentially (probably even) spell death for the tank then and there. Say you're trying to gun down an assault transport, Imperial Knight, Walker or MC. In the following opponent's turn you're screwed if you failed to kill it outright. (Actually, you're potentially still screwed even if you killed the assault transport as its contents could still reach you)The Vanquisher doesn't have great maths on paper, but its a reliable tank that is way more safe to use.

This is also all if the Punisher is piloted by Pask, of course, and if you're taking Pask you're now putting all your other longer range tanks in the squadron potentially in a more risky position during games so his points aren't wasted. The Punisher is just mediocre at best outside of as a TC or Pask himself. The Demolisher is just naff and too expensive. The Vanquisher on the other hand is viable in a Pask/TC squadron as not being just piloted by the TC/Pask himself.

The point about immobilization is a fair one and I think your most credible argument against the Pask-Punisher- a single bad roll on the damage chart can screw it pretty fast. But by that same token, all it takes is a bad roll on the weapon destroyed roll to neuter a Punisher or a Vanquisher or almost any other vehicle. Hell, the statistical likelihood of rolling a 5 on a D6 is equal to rolling a 6, and on a 6 the damn thing just explodes. So is the Vanquisher really any safer? At the end of the day, for any Russ there comes a point where you simply need to trust the AV14. As far as the threat of a "collapsing flank", well, I control where my units are on the board, not the enemy, and the 30'' threat range of the Punisher (or 46'' if you used Full Throttle the previous turn, a tactic I know from reading your mini-batreps you're rightly fond of) is a large enough bubble for me to not have to consistently worry about that. The board is only so big.

The crux of your argument basically comes down to "the Punisher is short-ranged, the Vanquisher is long-ranged, therefore the Vanquisher has an advantage." I don't agree. It's not worth comparing the two on an anti-infantry point, as obviously the Punisher is superior on every level, but even as far as AV, the Vanquisher, frankly, is balls at anti-vehicle. It has a 22% chance to explode AV12, and a 15% chance to explode AV14. So it is reliable, but what is it actually reliable at? It certainly isn't reliable at exploding vehicles, not mathematically. The only thing it will reliably do is... take a single hull-point off a vehicle every turn.

I'm not trying to gak on the Vanquisher though. I suppose that in some peoples meta, that near-guaranteed -1 HP a turn may be worth it, I suppose. As far as my own playstyle, I prefer more versatility in regards to effectiveness against different targets, and with the changes to the vehicle damage chart, glancing a vehicle to death rather than relying on pen's is more important than ever , and is something that the Punisher excels at, in addition to its excellent handling of hordes, MC's and MEQ.

 Billagio wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

Yes this^

allowing the rerolls to hit for the gets hot means the tank will never over heat. And you can always use the order to split fire so the vanq can take care of heavy armor and the executioners focus on light armor or infantry.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

Exactly this.

The Executioner is a very powerful tank (esp. with Plasma Sponsons) and it's cheaper this edition. The downside is that it has a fairly likely chance of wrecking itself in a game, shooting 5 templates (each shot generates a Gets Hot! roll) each turn. With Pask, you can all but ignore this effect with Preferred Enemy, giving you all the benefit of a cheaper, 5-shot, S7 AP2 blast AV14 vehicle, that can split fire (with a successful Ld9 test) with none of the drawbacks.

I'm really not sure I'll take anything else as squadron buddies for Pask unless there's some kind of FAQ/Errata released regarding the Gets Hot! re-rolls and PE. It's just too good a deal to pass up.

DoW

On a sidenote, I don't see it being listed for Hellhounds as them having scout.

I could have sworn they did in the 5E 'dex. Is this a change or am I high?

The codex is not in my hand but im sure they removed it. i beleive it is only fast IIRC

on some side notes: dont forget not to run psykers with yarrick. he already BLAMED two for perls :(

Ramming with russes against CCB and other vehicles is an awesome way to get passed jinx as well is a st10 hit to pen those damn quantum shielding

Pask pushiner deals out a boat load of wounds and HP stripping but his range really is an issue. considering keeping him cheap in a las vanquisher instead.

How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

konst80hummel wrote:
How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

Ramming IIRC is half your AV rounded up + 1 for tank + 2 for heavy vehicle so 7 + 1 + 2 i dont think it was distance dependent anymore or we misread everything.

I seeeeee (evil squeal)Thanks

So it provides a STR 7 + 2(heavy) + 1(tank) + 1(dozer) for a STR 11 max? Provided anything ever gets within 6" of your tank and they somehow forgot the ramming rule, I'd say this is golden. Also probably the best 1 trick pony to use against eldar wave serpent spammers XD

All in all, I am going to run vanquishers for a bit to see how they fair. Will have wyverns and executioners for crowd control and vanqs for AT. Exterminators are just the run-off the mill all purpose dakka tank XD

The highest strength you can go to for anything in the game is strength 10.

So even if you had someone who was strength 7 and they used a powerfist (doubles strength), they would be strength 10, not strength 14.

I really want to love the punisher, i really do, but most of my opponents live in the realm of space marines so it only takes a few guys to get in close and wreck any of my tanks with Krak Grenades (which makes me sad). Id venture to say that 70% of Russ deaths are attributed to krak grenades over even meltas. Next time i run pask im going to try the vanquisher

 Desubot wrote:

konst80hummel wrote:
How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

Ramming IIRC is half your AV rounded up + 1 for tank + 2 for heavy vehicle so 7 + 1 + 2 i dont think it was distance dependent anymore or we misread everything.

And if you don't kill what you ram, you can always shoot it.

Also dont forget if you get unfortunate and roll a second set of 1s for gets hot, on a roll of a 1-3 the tank then lose a hull point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Less than 3 weeks now and i will finally be able to get my first game in of 7th haha. Hopfully after that i can add more to this thread!

Something to note, when you ram you have to shoot snap shots.

I did not know this^ I will have to find this in the book. Seems pointless to ram with a russ then at that point unless you are already snap firing.