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So what is everyone's thoughts on Relic plating? I have found that running it on things that will draw lots of psychic fire (namely HQ tanks) is a nice little boost and helps to mitigate some of the potential damage.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I did not know this^ I will have to find this in the book. Seems pointless to ram with a russ then at that point unless you are already snap firing.

True, which is why I'd only ram with the exterminator variant since the snap shots won't hurt too much. Either way, it is a free auto hit STR 10 attack which is why even with the snap shooting, this almost guarantees the removal of 1 HP which in certain circumstances could be vital. Would be funny to see Dark eldar run their pirate ships close by only to get hammered by ninja ram XD

or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

 Leth wrote:
or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

This. With the changes in psychic powers, Blessings are going to be the priority for most every army's casting dice. I can see Witchfires (other than things like Psychic Shriek since it's the primaris in the discipline with the best Blessing) almost disappearing, and a major reduction in the casting of Maledictions.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 Leth wrote:
or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

This. With the changes in psychic powers, Blessings are going to be the priority for most every army's casting dice. I can see Witchfires (other than things like Psychic Shriek since it's the primaris in the discipline with the best Blessing) almost disappearing, and a major reduction in the casting of Maledictions.

Actually I believe the opposite, that maledictions actually got a lot stronger in many ways.

Before you had a minimum of a default failure rate of 16.7 percent. Now that is not the case. In addition you can simply overwhelm their defenses with lots of dice. If they are lacking in psychic defenses than once their d6 dice are gone they cant do anything to stop you. Number of times I have rolled a one against someone with no psykers and just had free reign, its fantastic.

Start by casting the blessings that will draw out their dispel pools and then just start throwing maledictions. Or vice versa(depending on your strategy).

I think before I use relic plating my russ will probably have a dozer blade. Denying got a little bit harder and usually my army doesn't have many psykers anyways so to me I probably won't ever put relic playing on it.

I played a game today against ultra marines. I ran pask as the HQ choice (punisher with heavy bolters and dozer blade) with a matching punisher in the squad. In front I ran a squad of 5 bullgryn along with a DA librarian (level 2, terminator armor, PFG).

Kept the Libby close to the bullgryn, joined the unit, kept pask close too. The bullgryn soaked up,a bunch of shots. T5, 3 wound,3+/4+ armoir with a 4+ invul save is fun to have.

Not the best tactic I could agree, points spent elsewhere for something better, true. It was just fun.

For me, the biggest change was to leave my psykers on the shelf. Sure, they have the potential of doing some amazing things, but leaving out my psykers gave me so much additional points that I was able to field a total of 117 models in an 1850 game - and that's with 4 Leman Russes, a Hellhound, Vendetta, etc. Other than that, my infantry IG has been doing pretty much the same thing they've been doing for the longest time. I haven't tried out my mech infantry and armored company yet.

I tried my hands at a 1k mechish list against a 1k daemon factory,

Gotta say, i love the eradicator and manticore. being able to ignore/intervening terrain was very helpful.

and a pask vanquisher and buddy was no pushover ether even with no enemy vehicles.

Then thinking back to my previous game, i now want to buy/build my self a Edit: Booo i ment gorgon :( for delicious st10 12" range super heavy ramming and tank shock + 2 units charging out of it (ether a demo vet squad or some angry dark angel terminators )

From how I've felt I think heavy infantry list with some russ support is one of the best ways to go. Some armies really can't handle dealing with lots of bodies. I played against crons with a foot list running msu and I practically tabled him.

Vets with lascannons as support for infantry platoons moving up really proved well as having russes in support.

The eradicator is really a great tank. Using it with heavy bolter sponsons is amazing for putting wounds and moping up infantry.

I have a question are vets with shotguns any use. Back in 5th i had two squads of melta/ shotgun vets in a autocannon chimera. Are they still viable?

 brochtree wrote:
I have a question are vets with shotguns any use. Back in 5th i had two squads of melta/ shotgun vets in a autocannon chimera. Are they still viable?

In my opinion, not really.

You can't assault out of a stationary Chimera like you could in 5th, so having Assault shotguns (vs Rapid Fire lasguns) isn't as much of a benefit.
Assaulting with 10 S3 T3 WS3 guys wasn't really going to do much, regardless.

The opportunity to reach out to 24", even with a single, S3 AP- shot, is nice to have.
Being within 12" (to even shoot) with the shotguns means you're in charge range (2D6) for everything in the game. That's more of a liability.

It's a small factor, but shotguns cannot benefit from the FRFSRF order. Some people occasionally take non-mechanized Veterans and this could come into play in certain circumstances.

I may be missing something vital, but I don't think many people took shotguns on their Veterans even in 5th edition. In fact, the point was usually raised that if shotguns were S4, then it would be something to consider. As it stands, trading Rapid Fire for Assault 2 just wasn't worth it.

As an aside, I always liked the standard Multilasers on my Chimeras. Don't get me wrong, S7 is great and AP4 can be very useful, but 3 shots that still wound MEQ on a 2+ (and neither is AP3) always seemed more valuable. Now I almost always throw the 5 point Heavy Stubber for 3 snap shots at S4. At half the price it used to be, I think it's well worth it.

DoW

i got a question that i'd like to throw out to the group:

when preparing for fliers, what is your preference between two hydras (140pts) or an aegis defense line w/ quad gun (100pts) and why? i've been leaning towards the ADL due to its lower cost and 4+ cover save (not to mention the option of using interceptor), but two hydras seem a lot more resilient. want to get your general thoughts then we can talk more specifically to certain scenarios or tactics.

also... if there's a better counter for fliers (at similar point cost) that i'm totally missing please enlighten me!

cheers

40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

 Desubot wrote:
40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

thanks for the response. i'm actually playin' crons later tonight, which is what prompted the question. not sure if he'll be bringing fliers or not but want to be prepared. ADL seems to make more sense for that reason since i'll at least be left with cover if he doesn't field any. that 7th edition change to skyfire makes those hydras a one trick pony.

The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

The only problem with the ammo depot is the range. 2 inchs of models isnt much and the range can be kinda skirted around. just a little thing

 Desubot wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

The only problem with the ammo depot is the range. 2 inchs of models isnt much and the range can be kinda skirted around. just a little thing

It's large enough to squeeze 3 chimeras within the radius. Also blobs can conga line a few models back towards the ammo depot.

 eluxir wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

thanks for the response. i'm actually playin' crons later tonight, which is what prompted the question. not sure if he'll be bringing fliers or not but want to be prepared. ADL seems to make more sense for that reason since i'll at least be left with cover if he doesn't field any. that 7th edition change to skyfire makes those hydras a one trick pony.

Ive actually experimented with both. Ive used the aegis/quad gun combo enough to know its very good. Recently Ive started trying to use hydras and they did their job. A squad of 2 works really well as it also puts a good amount of wounds on flying monstrous creatures. I havent played skimmer armies but seeing as hydras can fire normally at skimmers they will be able to do a little more in certain scenarios.

Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

I've actually picked up the book and plan on using the formation this week. It's rather confusing for the tank commander as it says 1 tank commander, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra. Now can the tc be an upgrade in one of the russ squadrons or do you teqnically have to have 4 squads since the tc has to have another russ in his squad or because it's says one tc does he not have to take a squad member?

 tankboy145 wrote:
I've actually picked up the book and plan on using the formation this week. It's rather confusing for the tank commander as it says 1 tank commander, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra. Now can the tc be an upgrade in one of the russ squadrons or do you teqnically have to have 4 squads since the tc has to have another russ in his squad or because it's says one tc does he not have to take a squad member?

I read it as you have to take those options from the codex, so it would be three squadrons + Tank Commander's squadron.

I am hoping to pick up a physical copy of that book soon.

The formation tells you the entries in the codex that you have to take - so in the formation you must take a Tank Commander (the codex entry), who in turn must have 1-2 Russ buddies with him in a squadron. However it also means you can take all the options of a Tank Commander - including Pask. So you can take Pask plus a Squadron buddy, 3 x Russ squadrons and a Hydra, all of which are getting PE without needing to have Pask as your Warlord. So that's 5 Russes inc Pask & a Hydra for ~ 1000 pts depending on Russ loadout. That's mean.

BTW, it doesn't help matters when the White Dwarf article says "you can take a squadron with the Tank Commander" or somesuch. No Mr White Dwarf person, the Codex says "must", not "can" or "may". RTFR.

It's also not restricting the rest of your army to IG either, as any Imperial List can ally to the Formation as Battle Brothers. My current thought is a GK CAD with Coteaz as Warlord, a buddy Inquisitor, 3 Troops of min Henchmen in Psybacks, 2 Rhinos with more henchmen with an Inquisitor in each and the above Steel Host Formation. Should fit into ~1650pts. 5 Russ's including Pask, 3 Psybacks, 2 Rhinos, a Hydra, 10 OS units, 13 ML and 4 Psychic Screams per turn without having to get out the Rhinos.

Hmm running into a bit of an uncommon problem. friend running tzeench daemons at 1500 points was poping out about 40 some odd warp charges. is that right??? 8 heralds LoC and a bunch of pink things all over the place. is that possible?

I chucked in 2 lv2 primaris psykers and came to the conclusion that against excessively warp charged armies i will never cast a thing and will rarely deny anything :/ would it be best to chuck those points into say more tanks?

 tankboy145 wrote:
Ive actually experimented with both. Ive used the aegis/quad gun combo enough to know its very good. Recently Ive started trying to use hydras and they did their job. A squad of 2 works really well as it also puts a good amount of wounds on flying monstrous creatures. I havent played skimmer armies but seeing as hydras can fire normally at skimmers they will be able to do a little more in certain scenarios.

just now realized that hydras can shoot at skimmers with full BS! that is awesome. thank you for pointing that out, thought it only applied to firing at fliers and FMC.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

 eluxir wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

 Happygrunt wrote:

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

Would be Awesome with a Steel host that has camo gear or just regular IG Tanks, till the wave serpents happen.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 eluxir wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

well that's sexy.

 Desubot wrote:
Hmm running into a bit of an uncommon problem. friend running tzeench daemons at 1500 points was poping out about 40 some odd warp charges. is that right??? 8 heralds LoC and a bunch of pink things all over the place. is that possible?

I chucked in 2 lv2 primaris psykers and came to the conclusion that against excessively warp charged armies i will never cast a thing and will rarely deny anything :/ would it be best to chuck those points into say more tanks?

Well, 8 ml3 TzHeralds will give you 24 warp charges. Pink Horrors are mastery level 3 when a unit has 16-20 models in it, so if you were to 6 squads, that'd give you an additional 18 wc's for a grand total if 42+D6 warp charges. Dunno if you can fit 8 heralds and 6 horror squads into a 1500 point list, but you can probably get close.

With the IG you have a defense against daemon factory lists though. You're right that taking psykers is pointless- however it's very easy for Guard to slaughter a ton of horrors early game. They're T3 with 5+ saves. The grimoire can't protect them all, and even cursed earth will only give thdm a 4+ save.

A squad or two of wyverns will absolutely wreck a horror-spam list.

Edit- unless he's taking a second detachment, he shouldn't be able to take 8 heralds and a LOC. 4 heralds=1 HQ slot.

It was a double. I was considering a wyvern or 3 but went with a manticore and eradicaters. Might have to kill some points for a battery