Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lothar wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Id love to see a breakdown of there games.

Me to, but since we did not see any article of that kind to this day, we will probably not see it at all.

One of the things which has been mentioned is that guard is too slow - BAO used combined eternal war with maelstrom of war missions and a lot of those missions require mobility and MSU. Guard is anything but mobile....

Agreed... And that has been a reoccurring problem for me when playing those missions. I love playing the tactical objectives but the randomness can be frustrating if the cards don't fall in your favor.

That being said, I'd like to start building lists with more mobility. Vets in a chimera has worked well, but I'm considering running Scions in a Taurox Prime to see how that Fast transport plays. Also going to start running valkyries/vendettas with scions and give grav chute insertion a go. Any other suggestions?

 daedalus wrote:
That's the one that means you have to take 2x5 of them?

I have mixed feelings about that many of them.

Yea but they gain counter attack, furious charge, and fear, which actually makes them way better in CC.

Really, ogryns would be better if you could take more of them as bodyguards for your characters. It'd be awesome to have one in your PCS and CCS, throw one in to protect a Primaris or a Priest.

 TheSilo wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
That's the one that means you have to take 2x5 of them?

I have mixed feelings about that many of them.

Yea but they gain counter attack, furious charge, and fear, which actually makes them way better in CC.

Really, ogryns would be better if you could take more of them as bodyguards for your characters. It'd be awesome to have one in your PCS and CCS, throw one in to protect a Primaris or a Priest.

I want to try out that formation so bad. My bullgryns/ogryns always hold their own. I like to field them as defensive, CC counters. Do you like playing Nork Deddog?

Also, I'm going to play my first game of kill team tomorrow. Any suggestions or tips from the group? Thinking about running sentinels or some sort of vet / chimera loadout but need to re-read the kill team rules.

From what I've heard a platoon works pretty well for kill team. Massed bodies has seemed to do better than specialists.

What do you guys think would be the best allies for the Guard right now?

Personally I've been working on a list with GK allies (Coteaz, a Psyker, 2 acolytes and a Rhino) and a Knight Errant.

Not sure on GK since they are going to lose INQ in a week or two.

I would be looking at wolves since they have a lot of things that buff guard blobs leadershipwise(ATSKNF). Also I think sisters would offer a lot, especially if going for blobs

I think drop podding space marines would be pretty hot for guard, as it gives you a lot of mobility and combat squad MSU for objectives.

1 Drop pod with a 10 man tactical/GH squad split into 2 combat squads is 3 units when they deploy that all have OS.

I think scions could also work well as allies, since you can DS them in onto objectives, or use fast transports and they get OS as they will be troops. They just aren't as durable as space marines for about the same points. with the T4/3+ and ATSKNF and drop pods are pretty cheap and don't have to worry about mishaps most of the time.

I thought Scions were much cheaper than Marines. Especially given that they have AP3 weapons, can take 2 specials, and have MTC for auto-passing those terrain tests that they would make cheaper and much more effective allies for guard for the purpose of mobility and OS. Also take into account orders from the Scion command squad.

Though I guess if your scatter die is screwing you over so often that you think buying pods is a must, maybe you ought to get a decent scatter die.

the base squad of 5 costs as much as 5 tac marines. It's true they do get ap3 weapons, but they are str 3.

The odds of 5 scions dropping 5 tacticals

10 shots, 7 hits, 2-3 wounds, no armor saves.

The odds of 5 tacticals dropping 5 scions

10 shots 7 hits 5 wounds, 2-3 unsaved.

they are about the same. Of course if the marines are in cover things change, and MTC is very nice to have. Also upgrades change things, to add more tacticals costs more than to add more scions, scions pay a premium upfront because their squad leader has better stats(+1 A and +1 LD over normal scion) and space marine default sgt stats are the same as normal tac marine.

The drop pod is not just useful for greatly reducing the chance to mishap, but its also OS with av 12, so your opponent has to dedicate fire to it, or your contesting/getting an objective with it if its near one every turn for 35pts.

I'd just like to throw an anecdotal story in here.

Ran kinda fluffy IG and got stomped repeatedly.

Bought some vanilla Space Marines. 2 tactical squads, 3 rhinos, 2 land speeders, 5 scouts and a 10 man assault squad.

Played against Necrons (1500 points - 750 IG and 750 SM)
- Tactical marines held objectives that were up close (utilizing their 3+ AS)
- Assault Marines held up the warlord unit, preventing them from advancing or shooting for 3 turns.
- Scouts held rear objectives while picking off Necron warriors
- Land Speeders used meltas and threatened them with objectives (like the within 12" of the back edge one which forced him to waste 25 Necron warrior shots on the LS)
- IG was able to move much more freely because the Necron player saw them as secondary threats.
- Veteran demolitions squad actually survived the whole game because Necrons were too busy trying to kill the SM units
- ATSKNF is amazing and prevents the domino fleeing/dying effect that you get with guardsmen

I think whenever you include AM or MT units in your army, you need to have a really good reason NOT to take a command squad for their orders.

Because pimp master yarrick is better?

I said good reason

You could be running a mech list which really has no use for a ccs and a tank commander is much better.

Also I hear everyone talking about blob guard. But from what I've heard blob guard is pretty bad. As a lot of the top armies are winning because they have fast units that can get across the board rather easily.

 tankboy145 wrote:
You could be running a mech list which really has no use for a ccs and a tank commander is much better.

Also I hear everyone talking about blob guard. But from what I've heard blob guard is pretty bad. As a lot of the top armies are winning because they have fast units that can get across the board rather easily.

Yea I don't quite get it. Seems like blob would be good in 6th edition missions, not so good in 7th. They're also rather tedious to play with.

I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)

Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.

 Leth wrote:
I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)

Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.

Yea, but they can charge you and prevent your entire blob from firing.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)

Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.

Yea, but they can charge you and prevent your entire blob from firing.

Which is fine, my blobs tend to kill whatever charges them.

As I said earlier I killed two wraith knights and two units of dire avengers.

Also killed three lords on CCBs over the course of 1 game.

Dont be afraid to charge with your blobs, with 1-2 characters and taking advantage of their mobility and you can cover a large part of the board.

Howd you manage to get a wraith knight at its unwoundable T8?

 Desubot wrote:
Howd you manage to get a wraith knight at its unwoundable T8?

Melta bombs on every sergent and yarrick can get a 6 every once in awhile. I had gotten one of them down to two wounds with shooting, second was at 5.

This is also me forgetting I had misfortune the entire game.

MF would certainly do it alone

Rending flashlights and fists are OP.

Its why i run divination over going for invisible 90% of games.

 Leth wrote:
I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)

Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.

I played against eldar couple of days ago. One conscript blob with coteaz, one shooty blob with tigurius(for prescience) behind aegis, one vendetta with flamer platoon command (1250 points). I did not manage to remove a single wound or hull point. Blob is not mobile, my enemy was. He was hiding behind LOS blocks with tanks (3 serpents, 2 hornets) and shooting at everything he saw from his point ( at vendetta, conscripts and my space marine unit) besides the shooty blob. He was waiting behind that block to the end of the 5th round, then flat-outing to the objectives. Meanwhile, his warp spiders were hiding behind ruins and waiting for scoring linebraker later. In 5th turn, everything besides shooty blob has been already killed/destroyed. I was sitting on 1 objective, he had 3 objectives, first blod, linebraker.

GG for me - all thanks to the lack of mobility. I had no way to put my shooty blob to use and no way to get to the points (only vendetta and conscripts, which were - as expected - quickly obliterated by massive eldar firepower). So, yes, mobility is VERY important.

Well I never said that blobs were all you had. I just said that 1-2 blobs is not bad. What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?

My IG detachment is about 900 points with two blobs, that leaves about 950 points for other stuff.


Also no offense but your friend brought a dick list for 1250 points and you were not optimized at all.

 Desubot wrote:
MF would certainly do it alone

Rending flashlights and fists are OP.

Its why i run divination over going for invisible 90% of games.

And i forgot that I had it too!!! but I always go div because it has the most powers that benefit guard blobs. Ignore cover, 4+ invul, full BS overwatch, rending. Only ones I dont like are scryers and precog, but even then they have their uses.

I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.

I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.

The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.

I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.

The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.

Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.

So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.

 tankboy145 wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.

I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.

The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.

Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.

So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.

To be fair

the only way to match prescienced dakka is to literally double your entire army (or unit that you need prescience) which is kinda impractical.

I reaaaaaaaallly dont want to spend the chasola for SW codex but being able to drop down demo charge SWT sounds soooo fun.

I ran coteaz out of the grey knights book so he was bringing two razorbacks with henchmen and thus 4 additional dice as well as 4 OS mobile units.

Now that Grey knights is getting changed I might go a different way since many tournaments are going the two source format.

Although Knights and henchmen in landraiders could be fun.

 Leth wrote:
What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?

I did not get to use orders during the game. Only at the end of the game, when serpents went to objectives, I had first chance to fire - to that time, they were all hiding from the blob, like I have already said. However, a single shooting attack is not enough to knock out wave serpent...or three serpents with two hornets and three units of infantry like in this situation...

I usually use no cover order. My blob is equiped with LCs. I prefer them before ACs, because LCs can hurt AV14.


The Guard blob has a lot of firepower with Prescience combined with orders. But the lack of blob mobility means you are often denied to use that firepower, if your enemy is mobile.

btw. I dont understand why do you say I was not "optimized at all". What do you mean?

 Lothar wrote:

 Leth wrote:
What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?

I did not get to use orders during the game. Only at the end of the game, when serpents went to objectives, I had first chance to fire - to that time, they were all hiding from the blob, like I have already said. However, a single shooting attack is not enough to knock out wave serpent...or three serpents with two hornets and three units of infantry like in this situation...

I usually use no cover order. My blob is equiped with LCs. I prefer them before ACs, because LCs can hurt AV14.


The Guard blob has a lot of firepower with Prescience combined with orders. But the lack of blob mobility means you are often denied to use that firepower, if your enemy is mobile.

btw. I dont understand why do you say I was not "optimized at all". What do you mean?

Well basically your opponent abused the fact that at small point sizes most armies are not going to be able to compete with wave serpents in addition took one of the most powerful forgeworld units on top of it to a 1250 game. I dont think there is an IG build that is not specifically tailored towards that list that can deal with it reasonably well.

Basically brought a gun to a dogfight(planes, not Vick). You brought the rock, he brought the paper.

 Desubot wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.

I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.

The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.

Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.

So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.

To be fair

the only way to match prescienced dakka is to literally double your entire army (or unit that you need prescience) which is kinda impractical.

I reaaaaaaaallly dont want to spend the chasola for SW codex but being able to drop down demo charge SWT sounds soooo fun.

Not entirely, because for one you can fail your psychic test and get no power off and you can also be denied and get no power off and in that case you will have less guns firing with no bonus. Where the guard army that has more guns will out shoot them. Im not sure if youve been following this thread from the beginning or read all the pages but there was a discussion about this where obsidiankatana did the math to how much more a presciences blob really benefits from the twinlinking rather than a guard army that has more guns. A blob doesnt get significantly better until it reaches above 30models. So if the blob is 40-50 then sure prescience will significantly make a difference but 30 and below does add much that more guns cant already add to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eluxir wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Id love to see a breakdown of there games.

Me to, but since we did not see any article of that kind to this day, we will probably not see it at all.

One of the things which has been mentioned is that guard is too slow - BAO used combined eternal war with maelstrom of war missions and a lot of those missions require mobility and MSU. Guard is anything but mobile....

Agreed... And that has been a reoccurring problem for me when playing those missions. I love playing the tactical objectives but the randomness can be frustrating if the cards don't fall in your favor.

That being said, I'd like to start building lists with more mobility. Vets in a chimera has worked well, but I'm considering running Scions in a Taurox Prime to see how that Fast transport plays. Also going to start running valkyries/vendettas with scions and give grav chute insertion a go. Any other suggestions?

The vendettas and valk ideas arent bad for the scions but the taurox really isnt that great. It can give some fire power but its really only got a turn of showing itself before its probably going to die.

Av11 is significantly different to av12 as more weapons can destroy 11 than 12.

I personally believe the chimera or standard taurox are better choices. The standard taurox is cheap and allows you to go over terrain quickly with its tracks but the standard taurox really isnt a gun box like the chimera is. so if you just want a cheap transport to drop troops off then the taurox seeems to be the answer but the chimera also does this better as it can drop the troops off and then provide moderate covver fire.