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 daedalus wrote:
Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.

Yes but its only for senior officers

I can think of more frivolous things to spend 50 points on.

If he is charging you all the time, you don't really need to move Pask much...

You have Nova cannon LR, Wyvern, ignore cover senior order, or even flamer SWS should help, all of it has ignore cover, DE is lightly armored, so AP4-5 won't be that much problem.

Maybe counter charging them would work. You deny him the charge bonuses, you get yours. Conscripts blob with a priest are supposed to be good cc units.

 daedalus wrote:
I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.

Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.

Well the only problem is if smaller squads are in front then his units like wyches who have 6+ armor now have a 5+ cover. I don't think warriors have fnp but a 5+ for them is no bonus. But I guess once they wipe the squad in front then the blob behind has open field to the wyches then.

And the ignores cover order is senior orders requiring a ccs. But the problem is hws are only ld7 meaning the order will pass half the time. It would be good for a blob with hwt's but not on the 3 man squads.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.

Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.

Well the only problem is if smaller squads are in front then his units like wyches who have 6+ armor now have a 5+ cover. I don't think warriors have fnp but a 5+ for them is no bonus. But I guess once they wipe the squad in front then the blob behind has open field to the wyches then.

And the ignores cover order is senior orders requiring a ccs. But the problem is hws are only ld7 meaning the order will pass half the time. It would be good for a blob with hwt's but not on the 3 man squads.

You can add some IC to boost leadership. Primaris psyker with Divination, using prescience boost your HWS's effectivity quite much. Also if they are coming close, you can use blobs with flash lights (maybe on rapid fire), add FRFSRF, maybe a prescience, you'll have a lot of dice to throw.

Chimeras seem to be pretty darn good against Dark Eldar. All of their vehicles have such low armor and lances count for a lot less against AV 12 spam.

Also, a key rule, flamer templates now inflict d6 hits on the passengers in open-topped transports. Flamers and heavy flamers will decimate any Dark Eldar units on the assault (except incubi). I run mech vets with 2xplasma or 2xmelta and 1 heavy flamer, overwatch against guys assaulting vehicles and can flame out the top.

It's tempting to go blob against DE, since their poison isn't as great against T3, but DE can put out a withering hail of Ap5 shots between their BS4 splinter rifles and splinter cannons. The venoms put out a ton of shots, so I'd glance them down with autocannons and multilasers (don't forget +1 for open-topped). DE start to lose their luster against 4+ saves and light armor, so load up on carapace vets, chimeras, and sentinels. Their poisoned weapons count for nothing against vehicles, and AV 12 will hold out reasonably well against their dark lances.

While DE can dish out damage, they're not so good at taking it, and flamer weapons will decimate DE squads. Put flamers in every squad that you can. Get fire barrels on your important vehicles to ward off haywire assaults.

DE are deceptively good in a firefight, due to their BS 4, high mobility, and advanced weaponry. You've got to punch them hard and box them in so that all your weapons are in range and their mobility counts for less.

See DE isn't scary at all when IG are on the board. Yeah, lance this and lance that, assault transports and crap, but when my Punisher and Wyverns get their chance, those BDSM Eldar will die in droves.

Additionally, arguing that fluff should make a squad of troopers better than their counterparts is nice and all, but if that were the case Space Wolves would never use bolters, or heavy weapons, CSM's would suffer ID from lasguns, and all marines would have an extra attack called 'headbutt'. Fluff simply isn't a good enough reason to argue the quality change in a group of soldiers. And if you could actually make that argument, I'd be righteously pissed that people argued that Veterans needed the buff when we've got 900 point Ogryns without invulnerable saves that are worth a damn.

Also HWT's are terrible. I love them so much, but they suck so hard in their current iteration. Even if you make a list built specifically to spam them, you'll need like 2k just to get the level of firepower to 'reasonable'.

 Frankenberry wrote:
...I'd be righteously pissed that people argued that Veterans needed the buff when we've got 900 point Ogryns without invulnerable saves that are worth a damn...

Also HWT's are terrible. I love them so much, but they suck so hard in their current iteration. Even if you make a list built specifically to spam them, you'll need like 2k just to get the level of firepower to 'reasonable'.

On ogryns, sometimes it just takes 8 editions to get something right.

And fixing HWTs would take too much effort, like changing their points cost to equal special weapons teams. You can't expect the writers to fix everything that's been broken for years and would take literally two seconds to fix.

Yea my problem is that they are great at shooting and turn 1 they usually will have a 3+ save with night fighting. 4 for jinking, and +1 for night fight(usually)

The wyches usually get in full strength to assault turn 1 because they have great saves and most of his heavy support ships just focus on my chimeras as well as the venoms. The venoms really take a toll on my vehicles with the units inside that have blasters.

Basically he gets in extremely close and then will usually be assaulting while he puts out a lot of fire power with his whole army practically at full strength.

Is it better to go mech or infantry based. If I go mech I won't have the ignores cover orders. But if I go mech I will have the support of some chimeras.

I could always go with infantry based list and have like 3 chimeras in support.

I am still pretty against hws as 1 s6+shot usually kills a whole base and forces a ld check.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Yea my problem is that they are great at shooting and turn 1 they usually will have a 3+ save with night fighting. 4 for jinking, and +1 for night fight(usually)

The wyches usually get in full strength to assault turn 1 because they have great saves and most of his heavy support ships just focus on my chimeras as well as the venoms. The venoms really take a toll on my vehicles with the units inside that have blasters.

Basically he gets in extremely close and then will usually be assaulting while he puts out a lot of fire power with his whole army practically at full strength.

Is it better to go mech or infantry based. If I go mech I won't have the ignores cover orders. But if I go mech I will have the support of some chimeras.

I could always go with infantry based list and have like 3 chimeras in support.

I am still pretty against hws as 1 s6+shot usually kills a whole base and forces a ld check.

Wyches have great saves? Their 4+ invul save is only in close combat. Otherwise they only have a 6+ armor save, and if they have a pain token a 5+ FNP.

I didn't mean the wyches exactly but their transports usually having a 3+ cover means the wyches are getting to my lines and assaulting at full strength.

So what are key units to run against de, is blob better or mech better? Or is msu infantry/vets on foot best. I typically will always use 2 russes or so. Should I usually deploy my army close together or space everything out?

Any comments are much appreciated.

Also I know the new de codex comes out in like a weeks or 2 but I don't think much will change between how they are now and with the new dex.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So what are key units to run against de, is blob better or mech better? Or is msu infantry/vets on foot best. I typically will always use 2 russes or so. Should I usually deploy my army close together or space everything out?

Any comments are much appreciated.

Also I know the new de codex comes out in like a weeks or 2 but I don't think much will change between how they are now and with the new dex.

Mech is best, their anti-tank is mostly limited to 36" S8 lance, so AV12 spam will do the trick. Vets with autocannons and heavy flamers will be able to target their vehicles and infantry, chimera and sentinel multilasers will do the same. When they get close, drive right up and flame their infantry and/or transports from the top hatch with your vets.

Deploy spread out, you don't want wyches moving from one assault to the next or warriors unleashing torrents of splinter rifle fire each turn.

As a long time DE player and new AM player, the thing that I worry about the most with guard are Wyverns, AV 12 spam, high volume S 5-6 weapons, and flame templates. Honestly, there is almost nothing in the DE army that will have a harder time taking out AV 12 than AV 14, so I like seeing Russes. Lascannons are dangerous, but they are generally on BS 3 platforms and I still get a jink or flickerfield save. A heavy bolter is just as dangerous. One thing is that a MAJOR power in the DE codex is trueborn with blasters, but they only have an 18" range. Worst thing the guard can do to DE IMO is take a promethium pipe relay and have a bunch of flamers/heavy flamers. In my opinion, guard and serpent spam are the worst DE matchups because of all the AV 12, but the promethium relay is adding insult to injury.

So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?

Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).

 tankboy145 wrote:
So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?

Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).

I would keep the hull heavy bolters. The vet's heavy flamer is better because it can overwatch and has a 12" (chimera move+disembark) threat range, while the chimera only has 6" threat range, which is only real useful against a unit that failed to bust the chimera in cc. I like the 2 plasma + heavy flamer load out on vets for the better range, rapid fire, and because I'm not disembarking those guys to face splinter rifle fire unless that heavy flamer is ready to wreck house.

 TheSilo wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?

Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).

I would keep the hull heavy bolters. The vet's heavy flamer is better because it can overwatch and has a 12" (chimera move+disembark) threat range, while the chimera only has 6" threat range, which is only real useful against a unit that failed to bust the chimera in cc. I like the 2 plasma + heavy flamer load out on vets for the better range, rapid fire, and because I'm not disembarking those guys to face splinter rifle fire unless that heavy flamer is ready to wreck house.

Plus if anyone assaults your chimera you get to overwatch with the HF, its a win win and i have been using this set up a lot with plasma and melta vets to make them more versatile

Blob Guard would probably have to work pretty hard to deal with DE, but armored/mechanized would probably chew them up pretty reliably.

CCS in a Chimera
Tank Commander in a Punisher and maybe a Eradicator buddy.

Vets in Chimeras with special weapons and a heavy flamer.

Couple Wyverns to eat anything not riding in a transport.

By and large this handles most, if not all of what DE can field. Naturally, you want to avoid charges and melee, but with the number of weapons a Guard list can field, DE should be getting shredded once they're in range.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Blob Guard would probably have to work pretty hard to deal with DE, but armored/mechanized would probably chew them up pretty reliably.

CCS in a Chimera
Tank Commander in a Punisher and maybe a Eradicator buddy.

Vets in Chimeras with special weapons and a heavy flamer.

Couple Wyverns to eat anything not riding in a transport.

By and large this handles most, if not all of what DE can field. Naturally, you want to avoid charges and melee, but with the number of weapons a Guard list can field, DE should be getting shredded once they're in range.

What would the purpose of the CCS be? If all the vets are in chimeras wouldnt orders be wasted which is pretty much one of the only reasons you want to take a CCS for.

Also I appreciate all the comments I have a general idea of how I should play against de now and these lists seem to have pretty good flexibility in handling other codexs. I will probably bring this de topic up again soon as they are getting a new codex in 2 weeks and will probably have new stuff that we will have to learn to deal with.

 tankboy145 wrote:


What would the purpose of the CCS be? If all the vets are in chimeras wouldnt orders be wasted which is pretty much one of the only reasons you want to take a CCS for.

Also I appreciate all the comments I have a general idea of how I should play against de now and these lists seem to have pretty good flexibility in handling other codexs. I will probably bring this de topic up again soon as they are getting a new codex in 2 weeks and will probably have new stuff that we will have to learn to deal with.

He's a slightly cheaper vet squad you can have order people who have been blown out of their chimeras. Also, he's a slightly cheaper vet squad, so special weapons. Finally, if there's something worth you getting an order on, you can dump a squad of vets out as a sacrificial lamb to increase the killing power.

Or you can dump your CCS with a Moo out behind LOS blocking something and ignore cover bomb things at the minimum.

Also a cheep astropath.

 Desubot wrote:
Or you can dump your CCS with a Moo out behind LOS blocking something and ignore cover bomb things at the minimum.

Also a cheep astropath.

Yup. A CCS in a chimera is indistinguishable from a vet squad, except the CCS can get astropaths and MOO. Orders are less useful in an armored list, but you'll still get a couple in towards the end of the game. It's also good for Get Back in the Fight when units get pinned after their transports are destroyed.

Alrighty, I will try to build up a list sometime tonight and I will post it up here to see what others say.

I'm wondering about mixing the tactics. Have a few melta/plasma vets in chimera, have some LR in the back, bubblewrap them in blobs, and some of those blobs would be combined to form big wound HWSs. Maybe add some psyker for prescience and a few command squad for orders. Can that work?

The only thing is only a "few" melta/plasma vets in chimeras usually means a smaller number and results in them not leaving the deployment zone because most of your opponents anti armor weapons will focus them. To be honest 3 or less chimeras is too few. 4 is a pretty solid amount especially with some russes. But then blobs get very expenisive just to be run decently.

Tbh 3 Chimeras is perfectly acceptable at 1500 points to 2000 depending on what the rest of your list looks like. If you have a lot of other vehicles like artillery and tanks then your opponent will have to deal with target saturation.

 ultimentra wrote:
Tbh 3 Chimeras is perfectly acceptable at 1500 points to 2000 depending on what the rest of your list looks like. If you have a lot of other vehicles like artillery and tanks then your opponent will have to deal with target saturation.

Oh yes at 1500 is fine but once you get close to 2k you really will want more troops.

Also that few would work well in a mech army but the post before talked about incorporating blobs. Which will take away the amount of vehicles you will have.

Do you guys feel the aegis defence line if necessary when running blobs? Im going to run 3 blob squads this weekend, two shooty and one CC. Ill be running yarrick and a priest, I know the cover save is nice, but im going to try to advance all the blobs up the table this time.

Nashole - if you are going to advance with blobs, then Aegis is actually worse than nothing (because it slows you down)...

@nashole
The trick is to take 2 priests to get both of the re-rolls.

@All
I'm thinking of running some Hellhounds with MMs vs DE and would like to hear any advice as to how to run them.

Mech up your blob, take AC, Flamer on the blob Then use Chimeras with ML, HB and HStubber.

+1 for taking Fire Barrels.