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hollis, this is a thread about counters to demons,

the # 1 counter being,

knowing the relevant rules.

Zag and I have quoted relevent, correct rules, that are part of countering the "mania" that is mostly feuled by peoples mis understanding of the new rules.

the fact that if they put a IC psyker into a unit with BOP and cast greater demon summoning, and there for lose the unit,, which includes the character, is a hard counter...

same with losing a non IC psyker who just happens to be part of the unit of BOP's.

this forces them to put guys out in the open, as zag has said.

Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".

The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.

I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.

Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.


Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?

Have you actually played against it?

Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".

The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.

I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.

Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.

Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?

Have you actually played against it?

Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.

Strong does not mean broken. I think the words that you are looking for is closer to "its god damn annoying to play/against" It is a strong list, just like there are tons of other strong lists out there. As to playing against it, nope but I want to. I think it presents unique challenges that I need to incorporate into my lists but I dont see why it cant be beatable. It all depends on the missions and mission objectives. However for the purposes of time I can see needing to limit it. What makes the time limits work is that the game turns get shorter and shorter which will not be the case with the daemon army and they will actually get longer.

I am actually trying to see if the local daemon player would be willing to try it out against me.

Hollis... that you ask me if I have played a game against D factory... im my thread... where I talk about my, and my other TO's test games against D factory... that just shows your lack of reading skills...

I played a broken as broken can be d factory that another TO had set up to test it... my TAC guard list, with 0 tailoring, tabled him with very little effort despite him making all his rolls and getting first turn, and summoning a greater demon.

in the other games that play tested D factory against other REAL tournament lists, the eldar creamed D factory, tau creamed them, GK creamed them, IG creamed them... and so on.

you can claim that an IC in a BOP' unit is not part of that unit for all rules purposes, but the BRB states the exact opposite to what you say, so you are wrong, take that to YMDC, this thread is for listing counters. untill the BRB doesnt say an IC is part of a unit for all purposes, that IC is part of the unit.

again... lack of reading skills is your own fault if you cannot read that rule, if you are playing against people and playing WRONG... no wonder you are winning if you ignore all the rules that are detrimental to you... just as with your thread about you wanting to have multiple portal glyphs simply because you wanted them, despite everyone quoting you rules on how it was illegal... and you trying to cast the same power 2x with a unit.

d factory is only UBER if people are cheating... plain and simple



so main hard counter to d facotry:


make sure your opponent is not cheating

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".

The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.

I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.

Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.


Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?

Have you actually played against it?

Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.

Nope, haven't gotten to put the models on the table yet and I really want to. Not having played them yet doesn't refute the math, the same math you keep using. You mention powering through Possession, how many dice? How are you still going to power through Fortune? How are you going to Power through Sanctuary? Gotta try and Power through Burnt Earth? How many of your ~33 dice are you going to use? How many WC can I eliminate per turn? How will managing and rolling random powers affect the reliability of the build? What if none of your Warlocks roll Possession, ~20% chance. What if none of your Heralds roll it 6%. What if you don't roll Fortune on your Farseer, 50%. How many rolls for Sanctuary? How will you position yourself on the board to minimize Alpha Strikes, vs shooting armies. How is that deployment going to affect late game Objective Grabs? How are you going to kill Objective Secured Transports. How does your opponent having 12+ Deny Dice affect your decision making? How do you handle a dual GK Stormraven build when they start launching Mind Strike Missiles at your Seerstar? How is this build going to have the reliability, versatility, and potency to dominate and break 7th over it's knee? So many possibilities.

8 Dice on a WC3 power still has just under an 86% chance of success. 10dice, 95%. That is ~4 Powers per turn, maybe more is you risk your opponent Denying. Everything I talk about involves math and probabilities. I love statistics and find them incredibly invaluable when building a list.

I have said multiple times that it is a strong build and has potential, but I have also said it is not going to break this edition nor is it going to be the strongest build out there. Strong but playable is great, nothing wrong with Strong builds. Broken builds like 6th's Screamerstar are not. Even Taudar Battle Brothers broke last edition, I don't think Daemon Factory will break this edition.

And I've never said it isn't a strong build, I'm saying it's not broken to the point of wrecking 7th.

Maybe your other TOs kind of suck? It's not a easy win army.It istsuper strong and can be more so with allies.

Post some lists of your own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".

The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.

I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.

Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.


Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?

Have you actually played against it?

Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.

Nope, haven't gotten to put the models on the table yet and I really want to. Not having played them yet doesn't refute the math, the same math you keep using. You mention powering through Possession, how many dice? How are you still going to power through Fortune? How are you going to Power through Sanctuary? Gotta try and Power through Burnt Earth? How many of your ~33 dice are you going to use? How many WC can I eliminate per turn? How will managing and rolling random powers affect the reliability of the build? What if none of your Warlocks roll Possession, ~20% chance. What if none of your Heralds roll it 6%. What if you don't roll Fortune on your Farseer, 50%. How many rolls for Sanctuary? How will you position yourself on the board to minimize Alpha Strikes, vs shooting armies. How is that deployment going to affect late game Objective Grabs? How are you going to kill Objective Secured Transports. How does your opponent having 12+ Deny Dice affect your decision making? How do you handle a dual GK Stormraven build when they start launching Mind Strike Missiles at your Seerstar? How is this build going to have the reliability, versatility, and potency to dominate and break 7th over it's knee? So many possibilities.

8 Dice on a WC3 power still has just under an 86% chance of success. 10dice, 95%. That is ~4 Powers per turn, maybe more is you risk your opponent Denying. Everything I talk about involves math and probabilities. I love statistics and find them incredibly invaluable when building a list.

I have said multiple times that it is a strong build and has potential, but I have also said it is not going to break this edition nor is it going to be the strongest build out there. Strong but playable is great, nothing wrong with Strong builds. Broken builds like 6th's Screamerstar are not. Even Taudar Battle Brothers broke last edition, I don't think Daemon Factory will break this edition.

And I've never said it isn't a strong build, I'm saying it's not broken to the point of wrecking 7th.

I've never said it was broke, I said eventually it'll break it. I haven't broken it. I've created incredibly strong lists and played them multiple times. It's most of all a really fun but also tedious army.

It's been out 2 weeks basically, it wasn't til like 4 days ago people started realizing the Chaos Sorcerer thing along with figuring out possibities and breaking them. 4 Possessions at 8 dice is pretty high, it will be 2 to 3 though is my point.

People were asking how allies make them better, I showed them. Allies make the army better. Especially Chaos as you can still have a summoner, troops that have a psyker, a heldrake and it's like 500 points.It's why I think tourney's will start banning Come the Apocalypse Allies. Also we don't know yet if people are gonna swing towards " Yeah combined forces are okay" . I've always been under the " Sing FOC, Single Ally system". it gets better with that.

It's a incredible army and will be a few months really til everything is figured out, 20 or so games doesn't make me a expert but I have been pouring over books and notes about and tlaking with others. This has also been a huge derail.


So let's talk about how to actually kill it for cheap.

Hollismason wrote:
Maybe your other TOs kind of suck? It's not a easy win army.It istsuper strong and can be more so with allies.

Post some lists of your own.

You have changed your tune.


"It's not a easy win army. It is super strong and can be more so with allies." Is not the same as Broken, and a difficult to play army will have its hard counters. It can't be broken if lower quality players can't use it, if it requires a skilled player and mistake free play it certainly isn't a broken army. I know and have played against some mean players, guys to play some nasty 40k. If it takes one of them to play the Daemon Factory, then it isn't broken, it's merely viable.

If someone is playing Daemon Factory by the rules it will not be the powerhouse of 7th edition, it will fall to the Objective Secured options that are out there. The power in this edition is mobile and resilient mechanized Objective Secured Scoring.


The math shows us that it is much more likely its only 1-2 Possessions per army, and that can be dealt with.

I've always said that we haven't seen the "Taudar" combo yet with it. No ones come up with it.

People are trying to find it though.

Actually the lower the points of the game the more powerful the army becomes.

Mathmatcially it shows that your odds are basically 1 Possession per 5 Rolls. with a 3 ML getting a higher percentage.

Also that average is actually a little higher on the ML3s and ML2s as you have to account that you have reroll. It's not a vast increase

Basically , that number is reduced so it stops actually being a 1/6th chance the first time, eventually on the last time it goes down to a 1/4.

Hollismason wrote:
I've always said that we haven't seen the "Taudar" combo yet with it. No ones come up with it.

People are trying to find it though.

Actually the lower the points of the game the more powerful the army becomes.

Mathmatcially it shows that your odds are basically 1 Possession per 5 Rolls. with a 3 ML getting a higher percentage.

Also that average is actually a little higher on the ML3s and ML2s as you have to account that you have reroll. It's not a vast increase

Basically , that number is reduced so it stops actually being a 1/6th chance the first time, eventually on the last time it goes down to a 1/4.

I do happen to understand the math.

Yes, the chance of not getting it with a ML3 Psyker is (5/6*4/5*3/4) or 1/2. The chance of not getting it with four ML3 Psykers is (1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2) or 1/16.

1/16 Chance of Getting 4 Possessions
4/16(1/4) Chance of Getting 3 Possessions
6/16(3/8) Chance of Getting 2 Possessions
4/16(1/4) Chance of Getting 1 Possessions
1/16 Chance of Getting 0 Possessions

There is the Breakdown of rolling Possession using all four ML3 Psykers.

If you really focus all of your Heralds you can get at least two Possessions in 11/16 of your games.

Yeah it's why statistically you want more Pink Horrors and cheap Level 1s than large units in order to increase your odds. Of course \they are odds, and can only lead you so far but it is a easy way to kind of look at a army and go "Well I'm most likely to gert more X than Y".

I am not really feeling the threat of mass possession. The reason for this is that they lack objective secured, lack any significant shooting (if you bring in that many greater daemons you don't even have WC to use witchfires with), and they either walk or cannot charge for 2 turns.

I will give you 600 pts of daemons for 2-3 turns of not being shoot or assaulted. Also if you use 4 possessions with a 90% to manifest you will fail one of them 35% of the time. That is 9 dice per attempt BTW so 4 possession would be 36 dice.

Force field generators with an ADL? Thats no longer a 5++ but a 3+ cover with gtg AND having to get rid of the Void shields first.

Purifiers can be a mean shutdown for the deamon factory. Turn 1 advance 12" in a transport and snap fire 4 shots per psycannon in heavy 4 mode. Turn 2 tank shock 12" into the middle of the deamonic army and cast cleansing flame.

A 9" nova has an 18" diameter.

Cursed earth has a 24" diameter, but is a double edged sword because it will crowd the newly summoned units into a 24" diameter area.

Heralds summoned by sacrifice are not able to join a unit until it's controlling player's next turn so they each eat 2D6 S5 ignore cover hits and almost certainly die. T3 horrors and deamonettes are highly dependent on shrouding from Be'Lekor to keep them alive.

You'll probably need to toss a ton of dice and eat a perils to ensure it doesn't get cancelled with a DTW, but purifiers have brotherhood of psykers and thanks to henchmen GK can keep up with deamons on generating power dice.

I think every army is going to have a bad match up unless it's nigh indestructible type death stars. That's given.

The argument of "who goes first" when planning armies is completely trite. Let's look past how bad the roll off to go first is within the 7E book now, and realize if we're back to "he goes first, wins the game" style play, then we've all lost. That's boring. And for it's downsides, 6E at least showed a strong emphasis on going second as being the key to success which made for more interesting games when not dealing with the deathstars.

I have already offered a list that I feel would be a solid TAC and that would be a thorn in daemons side. Folks are offering Grey Knights, to that I say... uh, duh?

The problem is, however, that power armored Grey Knights are still tepid given their insane points cost on a single T4 3+ dude. Yes, I can see the return of razorspam thanks to Coteaz, Psykers, Purifiers, etc. But this army, I feel, has way more weaknesses than the daemon farm in that it's far easily stripped than the daemon farm is given various opponents. It's a one trick pony, so to speak, where as the daemon farm can be any trick you choose.

I read the post made by EasySauce and his battle report and it seemed like your friend is doing it wrong. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but as I read across the internet, there's either a strong notion that this list style of daemons army is extremely powerful when played well or people are going to a great deal of trouble to falsify battle reports. I'll go for Occam's Razor and my gut instinct telling me this list will be one of the "new hotness" of 40k.

I also don't see "possession spam" as being the key to success as it doesn't really fight back in the early stages as it should. Easysauce is correct that you cannot just give the first turn or two to the opponent. However, proper first turn stress tactics along with the appropriate summons (shooting for maximum efficiency units in the scenario provided, just not going more heralds/horrors/warp charge dice), this list will be the scalpel that defines more competitive play. I see it as a "Nick Rose" style list, like his Eldar he made famous with 2x 20 man Guardian Squads, Foot-Farseers, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, and Wave Serpents.

Except this list now allows you to nearly reliably bring the units you need to the table every single time. It's the epitome of TAC.

I'm not a daemons expert when it comes to list building, but let me break down what I'd probably play as a starting point:




I'm honestly debating whether or not to drop Fateweaver for Be'lakor in this list. Having guaranteed Invisibility on Dogstar is gross. Like stupid gross. I do enjoy Fateweavers control of the Warp Storm table, rerolls, and flexibility in power dispensing. He can also be where another FMC needs to be to apply pressure.

I intend to summon a Herald with the Grimoire if I feel it's necessary. Not sure if it will be or not, but hey, that's the risk.

Obviously, Skulltaker rides dirty with Khorne Dogs as ablative wounds delivery to ensure the dogs aren't eating Instant Death on approach. Running right behind them is 3 Soulgrinder of Chaos that are moving, on average, about ~15" a turn with fleet. Because they are only BS3, and I love my Dreadknights, I'd much rather have the torrent flamer as these guys are supposed to get into close combat ASAP and imply insane turn two pressure.

Then I press forward with some pink horrors to "throw" the new summons out. Standing back in the deployment zone and expecting your units to be succesful is a suckers bet. With the pressure of dogs (potentially invisible?) and 3 grinders, that should be an excellent amount of threat overload. I won't fear psycannon spam knights and would love for them to come closer so I can hit them with my sword, to boot.

Is it perfect? I dunno, I've not played daemons since 5E. But this list gives me 21+d6 warp charges, will be plenty to do my dirty deeds. I'd probably drop some horrors and dog or two to squeeze in Be'lakor as a replacement for Kairos should I felt it was necessary to have invisible bumper chasers.

Again, I expect daemon farm to be one of the best TAC armies in the game given it's keen ability for adaptation against any list. I already saw countless battle reports of the top table kinda guys adapting their deathstars to allow flexibility, now you have an entire list around the concept. I think it'll be gross when played right, but it will be entirely unforgiving played by the common guy trying to netlist.

 TheKbob wrote:
I think every army is going to have a bad match up unless it's nigh indestructible type death stars. That's given.

The argument of "who goes first" when planning armies is completely trite. Let's look past how bad the roll off to go first is within the 7E book now, and realize if we're back to "he goes first, wins the game" style play, then we've all lost. That's boring. And for it's downsides, 6E at least showed a strong emphasis on going second as being the key to success which made for more interesting games when not dealing with the deathstars.

I have already offered a list that I feel would be a solid TAC and that would be a thorn in daemons side. Folks are offering Grey Knights, to that I say... uh, duh?

The problem is, however, that power armored Grey Knights are still tepid given their insane points cost on a single T4 3+ dude. Yes, I can see the return of razorspam thanks to Coteaz, Psykers, Purifiers, etc. But this army, I feel, has way more weaknesses than the daemon farm in that it's far easily stripped than the daemon farm is given various opponents. It's a one trick pony, so to speak, where as the daemon farm can be any trick you choose.

I read the post made by EasySauce and his battle report and it seemed like your friend is doing it wrong. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but as I read across the internet, there's either a strong notion that this list style of daemons army is extremely powerful when played well or people are going to a great deal of trouble to falsify battle reports. I'll go for Occam's Razor and my gut instinct telling me this list will be one of the "new hotness" of 40k.

I also don't see "possession spam" as being the key to success as it doesn't really fight back in the early stages as it should. Easysauce is correct that you cannot just give the first turn or two to the opponent. However, proper first turn stress tactics along with the appropriate summons (shooting for maximum efficiency units in the scenario provided, just not going more heralds/horrors/warp charge dice), this list will be the scalpel that defines more competitive play. I see it as a "Nick Rose" style list, like his Eldar he made famous with 2x 20 man Guardian Squads, Foot-Farseers, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, and Wave Serpents.

Except this list now allows you to nearly reliably bring the units you need to the table every single time. It's the epitome of TAC.

I'm not a daemons expert when it comes to list building, but let me break down what I'd probably play as a starting point:

Spoiler:

Daemons; 1850

-Kairos Fateweaver
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3, Portopotty
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3
-Skulltaker; Juggernaut of Khorne

-Pink Horrors; x11, Icon
-Pink Horrors; x11, Icon
-Pink Horrors; x12
-Pink Horrors; x12

-Fleshhounds of Khorne; x10

-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh

I'm honestly debating whether or not to drop Fateweaver for Be'lakor in this list. Having guaranteed Invisibility on Dogstar is gross. Like stupid gross. I do enjoy Fateweavers control of the Warp Storm table, rerolls, and flexibility in power dispensing. He can also be where another FMC needs to be to apply pressure.

I intend to summon a Herald with the Grimoire if I feel it's necessary. Not sure if it will be or not, but hey, that's the risk.

Obviously, Skulltaker rides dirty with Khorne Dogs as ablative wounds delivery to ensure the dogs aren't eating Instant Death on approach. Running right behind them is 3 Soulgrinder of Chaos that are moving, on average, about ~15" a turn with fleet. Because they are only BS3, and I love my Dreadknights, I'd much rather have the torrent flamer as these guys are supposed to get into close combat ASAP and imply insane turn two pressure.

Then I press forward with some pink horrors to "throw" the new summons out. Standing back in the deployment zone and expecting your units to be succesful is a suckers bet. With the pressure of dogs (potentially invisible?) and 3 grinders, that should be an excellent amount of threat overload. I won't fear psycannon spam knights and would love for them to come closer so I can hit them with my sword, to boot.

Is it perfect? I dunno, I've not played daemons since 5E. But this list gives me 21+d6 warp charges, will be plenty to do my dirty deeds. I'd probably drop some horrors and dog or two to squeeze in Be'lakor as a replacement for Kairos should I felt it was necessary to have invisible bumper chasers.

Again, I expect daemon farm to be one of the best TAC armies in the game given it's keen ability for adaptation against any list. I already saw countless battle reports of the top table kinda guys adapting their deathstars to allow flexibility, now you have an entire list around the concept. I think it'll be gross when played right, but it will be entirely unforgiving played by the common guy trying to netlist.

Pretty much, and possession spam was just something I put forward. I've "played " it on Vassal and it's interesting and really good ,but it's not "gamebreaking" which is what people want and are looking for. It's not my style though.

Actually we don't even know yet on how tournaments are gonna be on the whole "combined" armies lists. I'm saying they'll probably be single FOC, Allies.

Your list is literally exactly the one I've been playing except I don't go with Slaanesh, I go with Tzeentch to get the 4+ w/ Cursed and a Reroll so I can also get another +2 with Grimoire if I need to and if lucky get the +1 and it doesn't have hounds it has Screamers.

Here's the big thing though Summon lists if you don't play fast are incredibly long and boring to play. I wrote a few things on how to speed it up in the Daemon faq thread which I still need to finish the last part. I'm waiting for the next big 40k tournament that's 7th to see how thinks shape up. It'll be interesting to see what occurs and whether people will be able to meet the requirements.

The thing is that really if you think about it and kind of view the Psychic Phase as your shooting phase, you realling only have one phase , sort of...


Also, who goes first doesn't always mean Alpha Strike, Bastion with Comm relays are really good. Every list has a counter.

 TheKbob wrote:

I'm not a daemons expert when it comes to list building, but let me break down what I'd probably play as a starting point:

Spoiler:

Daemons; 1850

-Kairos Fateweaver
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3, Portopotty
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3
-Herald; Tz, Lvl 3
-Skulltaker; Juggernaut of Khorne

-Pink Horrors; x11, Icon
-Pink Horrors; x11, Icon
-Pink Horrors; x12
-Pink Horrors; x12

-Fleshhounds of Khorne; x10

-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh

I like this list, looks very similar to what I'm going to try. I would try to move some points around (maybe drop a soulgrinder) to get either a unit of Screamers & give a disc to one/two of the heralds, and maybe drop Fateweaver for Be'Lakor.
With that build, you end up with Be'lakor giving Shrouding to the Screamers, Invis to the hounds, pop cursed earth/incursion/summons*2 from the screamer unit. Suddenly the enemy has 6-8 targets within striking range next turn: Be'lakor, screamers, skulltaker/hounds, 2 soulgrinders + 1-3 summoned units of Bloodcrushers/seekers/whatevers. The screamers have a 2+ re-rollable cover, be'lakor is gliding/jinking with a 2+ cover save, the hounds are invisible, everything else has a 4+ invulnerable and a 5+ or better cover...
The daemon factory of horrors on foot, staying in the back field doing nothing but summon more horrors, that is pretty lame. The daemon factory where everything rushes at you first turn can be one of the fastest armies in the game, reliably summoning dedicated combat units 6" from your lines.

You want fateweaver for the warp storm re-rolls as well as the grim re-rolls.

Too valuable to risk those rolls going bad.

Eh, you have like a 30% chance to just get that now.

 Leth wrote:
You want fateweaver for the warp storm re-rolls as well as the grim re-rolls.

Too valuable to risk those rolls going bad.

OTOH Fateweaver's purpose now is pretty much to re-roll 1 dice per turn/warp storm results and not much more. For 300pts and a HQ slot, that's a pretty steep price. Be'lakor on the other hand is very capable in combat, can survive well enough even when gliding (jink+stealth+shrouded), and gets guaranteed access to some great spells.
As soon as you start summoning, you are getting icons and instruments on the table which help out with warp storm results which might hit your units. Plus with battleforged you get to reroll your warlord trait for a better chance at getting the good warlord traits anyway.

Funny thing is that fatey is super useful in a d factory for rerolling the power selection of a summoned herald or a particularly nasty perils you just suffered (ie sucked into the warp result, etc.).

Fatey is also seriously survivable with a curse earth nearby.

I would admittedly be much happier with him if you could trade his powers for all telepathy, malefic, or even all biomancy. His 1 roll on each is kind of meh.

The grimoire is seriously unreliable without Fatey and an army wide instability is bound to happen in a long tournament without him.

Fatey and Be'Lakor is an either or. They cost too much together.

Depends on the rest of the list but I would probably run both. They both just bring so much to the table and there are plenty of other places you can cheap out in the list.

I've been trying out a mix of both, I've never really gotten a Warp Storm result that really screwed me over and the games I've played with the reroll I've gotten the Warp Storm result and the Warp Storm buff a couple of times.