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So with the news rules to IC, a Buff Commander or Shadowsun can't join a Riptide. However, how does this work with O'vesa who is an IC Riptide. He obviously can't join a Riptide due to this, but what happens if he try to join Buff Commander?

Can he join the IC if joins him, but not the other way around, or is it rejected both ways?

The world crumples in on itself repeatedly and implodes.

It's not rejected both ways, an IC can not join a MC or vehicle, and IC can join a IC.

Either it's a tax, or GW forgot they made a MC independent character. Either way not likely FAQ soon.

 Nilok wrote:
So with the news rules to IC, a Buff Commander or Shadowsun can't join a Riptide. However, how does this work with O'vesa who is an IC Riptide. He obviously can't join a Riptide due to this, but what happens if he try to join Buff Commander?

Can he join the IC if joins him, but not the other way around, or is it rejected both ways?

O'vesa?

What book is he in?

Farsight Enclave.

Farsight Enclaves FAQ came and this wasn't addressed. I think they forgot about him...

I'd say any unit with him cannot be joined by an IC, but he can join any unit (being an IC) that has either MC or vehicles

Hmmm.......

Does make me wonder about an IC joining a Firebase Support Cadre

Well, 2 of the units in the Firebase are Broadside, so you can join them. They are not one unit.

I'm not so sure that they don't make up a single unit, much like gun drones can be both their own unit and part of a squad / vehicle.

 Chopper Greg wrote:
I'm not so sure that they don't make up a single unit, much like gun drones can be both their own unit and part of a squad / vehicle.

Just so I can clarify for you, the Firebase Support Cadre is a Formation Detachment made of 3 units:
1 x Riptide
2 x Broadside x3

You can suit them up however you like, but they are not a single unit. That would be like saying you Primary Detachment is a single unit.

Army and Battlefield Role wrote:A Tau Firebase Support Cadre is a Formation which consists of the following units chosen from Codex:Tau Empire:
1 XV104 Riptide
2 XV88 Broadside Teams

It further lists what they can take and what you must take.

Currently, the you can have the rest of "The Eight" join a unit, O'Vesa joins and promptly ejects all of the other IC's from the unit! ... ... ...

StarHunter25 wrote:
Currently, the you can have the rest of "The Eight" join a unit, O'Vesa joins and promptly ejects all of the other IC's from the unit! ... ... ...

why? there's no prohibition of MCs joining ICs, only the opposite. If you remove one of those Ics, he won't be able to join the unit until O'Vesa leaves it

But you have created a prohibited situation. Wether o'vesa joins them or they join o'vesa, the end result is IC's formed a unit with a monstrous creature. Being an IC does not negate that restriction. You might as well say O'vesa does not have the Smash rule as IC's don't have it.

I don't see it that way. An IC cannot join a monstrous creature, but there's nothing saying about what can join an IC, apart that ICs can make up their own units. O'Vesa is an IC, and he can join other units.

But I agree it's at least murky waters and GW missed an opportunity to deal with that in the FAQ. Not letting O'Vesa join any kind of IC basically contradicts the whole idea of The Eight.

ICs are joined to a unit if they are in coherency with the unit at the end of the move phase.
There is no "one-way" joining. If two ICs are in coherency with each other, then they are both joined to the unit. The IC restriction on being joined to MCs prevents O'Vesa from having any ICs with him, and (which is the same thing) prevents him from being with any ICs.

Now, as to whether they can both be joined to the same Fire Warrior squad....I don't know.
If the prohibition says that ICs cannot be with MCs at all, then no, they could not be with the same FW unit.

And it doesn't contradict the "idea of the Eight." MCs are on their own, and, as beastly demigods of the battlefield, shouldn't need any support. Imagine Heracles or Achilles asking for help!

It is the end of their or its movement phase, as in the moment the IC is done moving.

The Commander cannot join the O'vesa unit.
But nothing stops O'vesa from joining the Commander unit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander cannot join the O'vesa unit.
But nothing stops O'vesa from joining the Commander unit.

So the net result is they can not join together, since one is disallowed from joining the other.

The Commander doesn't need to join the O'vesa unit if the O'vesa joins the Commander's unit.

Elric Greywolf wrote:And it doesn't contradict the "idea of the Eight." MCs are on their own, and, as beastly demigods of the battlefield, shouldn't need any support. Imagine Heracles or Achilles asking for help!

Yep, but then what was the point of giving O'Vesa the IC rule? As I understand, the point of giving IC to him, a Broadside and the other 5 Commanders is to join then with other kinds of similar units in the codex (Auxiliaries and Drones notwithstanding).
O'Vesa with a Riptide
Commanders with Crisis (Farsight + the other 5, each for a Crisis in Troops)
Shadowsun with a Stealth Team
Ob'lotai with a Broadside
Cadre Fireblade with Fire Warriors
Darkstrider with Pathfinders

With 7th rules, O'Vesa cannot join a Riptide. Bummer, but it's ok. Now, the rules are messy regarding joining him with his old fella, Farsight (and any other Tau IC).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander cannot join the O'vesa unit.
But nothing stops O'vesa from joining the Commander unit.

So the net result is they can not join together, since one is disallowed from joining the other.

They don't join each other, one joins the other.

Lets take a List with 2 CADs, 1 IG, 1 SW; I take 1 each of Wolf Lord, Wolfguard Battle Leader, Rune Priest, and Wolf Priest, then in my IG list I take a Commissar and a Primaris Psyker. I then start joining them in the movement phase; my WGBL move into coherency with and joins my Wolf Lord, this is now a Wolf Lord unit with 2 models in it(Wolf lord himself, and wgbl), I then move the rune priest in to join the wolf Lord unit, then the commissar to add stubborn, then the primaris, then the wolf preist. This is still a wolf lord unit, and all ICs have joined the unit while the wolf lord has not joined anyone, nor have any of the others joined him.

The wolf lord does not have to join anyone because there is no unit other than his unit in which to join, the WGBL unit ceases to exist the moment he joins the WL unit, and so on for the other 4 ICs

Edit:
2 more points to make.

1) For the inevitable "but they don't join till the end of the movement phase" argument, I have 2 things to say about that; First no it is at the end of their or its movement phase. and second, end of phase effects are done in the order of your choosing so the exact same situation as the order of move and join still happens and O'Vessa can still join.

2) I... forgot my second point, I am sure I will remember it when the argument is brought up.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander doesn't need to join the O'vesa unit if the O'vesa joins the Commander's unit.

The commander is an IC, he automatically joins any unit he is within 2 inches of at the end of his movement phase...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
They don't join each other, one joins the other.

Not true at all, Any IC will join another unit if they are within 2 inches of said unit at the end of their movement phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander doesn't need to join the O'vesa unit if the O'vesa joins the Commander's unit.

The commander is an IC, he automatically joins any unit he is within 2 inches of at the end of his movement phase...

Which he isn't allowed to do in this case, so instead you must join the O'vesa to the Commander or join both to a third unit (Commander first) if you wish to have them both in the same unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander doesn't need to join the O'vesa unit if the O'vesa joins the Commander's unit.

The commander is an IC, he automatically joins any unit he is within 2 inches of at the end of his movement phase...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
They don't join each other, one joins the other.

Not true at all, Any IC will join another unit if they are within 2 inches of said unit at the end of their movement phase.

If the IC is already part of a unit it stays part of that unit (assuming it stays with it). The MC IC then joins that unit, the original IC never actually joins a unit with an MC, the unit he is in is just joined my an MC.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander doesn't need to join the O'vesa unit if the O'vesa joins the Commander's unit.

The commander is an IC, he automatically joins any unit he is within 2 inches of at the end of his movement phase...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
They don't join each other, one joins the other.

Not true at all, Any IC will join another unit if they are within 2 inches of said unit at the end of their movement phase.

And once one IC joins the other he is no longer a unit. So the other IC does not have to, and in fact cannot, join the IC that joined him

Vector Strike wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:And it doesn't contradict the "idea of the Eight." MCs are on their own, and, as beastly demigods of the battlefield, shouldn't need any support. Imagine Heracles or Achilles asking for help!

Yep, but then what was the point of giving O'Vesa the IC rule? As I understand, the point of giving IC to him, a Broadside and the other 5 Commanders is to join then with other kinds of similar units in the codex (Auxiliaries and Drones notwithstanding).
O'Vesa with a Riptide
Commanders with Crisis (Farsight + the other 5, each for a Crisis in Troops)
Shadowsun with a Stealth Team
Ob'lotai with a Broadside
Cadre Fireblade with Fire Warriors
Darkstrider with Pathfinders

With 7th rules, O'Vesa cannot join a Riptide. Bummer, but it's ok. Now, the rules are messy regarding joining him with his old fella, Farsight (and any other Tau IC).

It goes beyond messy at this point. What does the FE codex state as far as O'vesa joining other units are concerned?

The reason I ask, is that it may be time to trot out the Codex over BRB rule of thumb - I really don't like doing it, but it may be the only answer for several weeks ( perhaps months ), until GW realizes that it is a FUBAR situation.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Commander cannot join the O'vesa unit.
But nothing stops O'vesa from joining the Commander unit.

So the net result is they can not join together, since one is disallowed from joining the other.

They don't join each other, one joins the other.

L:ets take a List with 2 CADs, 1 IG, 1 SW; I take 1 each of Wolf Lord, Wolfguard Battle Leader, Rune Priest, and Wolf Priest, then in my IG list I take a Commissar and a Primaris Psyker. I then start joining them in the movement phase; my WGBL move into coherency with and joins my Wolf Lord, this is now a Wolf Lord unit with 2 models in it(Wolf lord himself, and wgbl), I then move the rune priest in to join the wolf Lord unit, then the commissar to add stubborn, then the primaris, then thr wolf preist. This is still a wolf lord unit, and all ICs have joined the unit while the wolf lord has not joined anyone, nor have any of the others joined him.

The wolf lord does not have to join anyone because there is no unit other than his unit in which to join, the WGBL unit ceases to exist the moment he joins the WL unit, and so on for the other 4 ICs

I have a hard time allowing that it's legal for unit A to join unit B, but it's illegal for unit B to join unit A - the results are exactly the same, so why quibble that one is legal when the other is explicitly not legal?

Personally, I would just as soon rule that since O'vesa, is already both an IC and an MC, that the rule about IC's joining MC's, flat out doesn't apply to him - but I doubt that I would find many people willing to agree with me.

 Chopper Greg wrote:

Vector Strike wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:And it doesn't contradict the "idea of the Eight." MCs are on their own, and, as beastly demigods of the battlefield, shouldn't need any support. Imagine Heracles or Achilles asking for help!

Yep, but then what was the point of giving O'Vesa the IC rule? As I understand, the point of giving IC to him, a Broadside and the other 5 Commanders is to join then with other kinds of similar units in the codex (Auxiliaries and Drones notwithstanding).
O'Vesa with a Riptide
Commanders with Crisis (Farsight + the other 5, each for a Crisis in Troops)
Shadowsun with a Stealth Team
Ob'lotai with a Broadside
Cadre Fireblade with Fire Warriors
Darkstrider with Pathfinders

With 7th rules, O'Vesa cannot join a Riptide. Bummer, but it's ok. Now, the rules are messy regarding joining him with his old fella, Farsight (and any other Tau IC).

It goes beyond messy at this point. What does the FE codex state as far as O'vesa joining other units are concerned?

The reason I ask, is that it may be time to trot out the Codex over BRB rule of thumb - I really don't like doing it, but it may be the only answer for several weeks ( perhaps months ), until GW realizes that it is a FUBAR situation.

It just says that he is an IC.

If as you say, the FE only lists him as an IC and he doesn't have MC any place in his listing, then there is no issue with O'vesa joining or being joined by another IC, despite other Riptides being classified as MC's.

 Chopper Greg wrote:
If as you say, the FE only lists him as an IC and he doesn't have MC any place in his listing, then there is no issue with O'vesa joining or being joined by another IC, despite other Riptides being classified as MC's.

He's an MC with the IC rule. IC isn't a unit type, it's a special rule. In theory (although the rules would have a heart attack) you could have a vehicle IC.

O'vesa is possibly the most contradictory unit in the game. RAW, he can't exist! He's a MC (and as such, a unit by himself) AND an IC, so his very existence is against the rules (a MC and IC in the same unit!)

If O'vesa is fielded, he should just automatically be removed as a casualty as soon as he is deployed

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
O'vesa is possibly the most contradictory unit in the game. RAW, he can't exist! He's a MC (and as such, a unit by himself) AND an IC, so his very existence is against the rules (a MC and IC in the same unit!)

The underlined is false. Carnifexes are MC units, Canoptek Spyders are MC units... or do you have a rule to back up your statement?