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Yeah so he sucks at melee. This is mostly a mental exercise, but if people like it......

Army: Thousand Sons Legion (Space Marine Legion)
Unit Type: Independent Character
Army Slot: Lord of War (HQ in apocalypse games of 5000 points or more)
WS:5/ BS:6/ S:7/ T:7/ W:6/ I:4/ A:4/ L:10/ SV:2+/4+ 525 points
Special Rules: Master Sorcerer, Psyker (ML6), Primarch, Very Bulky, The Sorcerer King
Wargear: Scarab Armor, Staff of Magnus, Hand of the Giant

Master Sorcerer: Magnus knows all powers from the Malefic, Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination disciplines.

The Sorcerer King: Powers cast by Magnus only require a 3+ to be successful, instead of a 4+. Magnus is immune to shadows in the warp. Magnus does not suffer Perils in the Warp, and instead when Perils would normally occur, the power simply doesn't go off. Magnus allows the player controlling him to Deny the Witch on a 5+. Magnus grants one additional level of Psychic mastery to every Thousand Sons Psyker, or Brotherhood of Psykers within 8 inches.
Due to Magnus' immense strength and powerful physical presence he may only have two buffs on him at any given time.

Scarab Armor: Save above.
Staff of Magnus: Magnus' staff of office, and also an effective bladed weapon/ S+1, Force Weapon, AP:2, Rending
Hand of Magnus: Magnus' personal pistol, made for him by Vulkan/ S:7, AP:2, Assault 3, 24 inch range

What's his war gear? Also shouldn't he be WS7 atleast? He was more skilled than Lorgar who is only WS6

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
What's his war gear? Also shouldn't he be WS7 atleast? He was more skilled than Lorgar who is only WS6

Sorry added above.

Why only I4?

Even the slower primarchs had I5+

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why only I4?

Even the slower primarchs had I5+

It's a kind of internal balance, to counteract his psychic might,

As a rule of thumb, the Primarchs probably shouldn't have access to Biomancy.

All of the books portray Magnus as the mind bullets master anyway, the obvious bio-manipulation has always been the Big E's territory.

The hard thing about balancing Magnus is that he isn't BAD at anything per say, Magnus can, and should be able to beat any of the primarchs on the table top. Now, the Thousand Sons have always been one of the weaker Legions, with the flesh change ravaging their ranks, they turned to their Primarch to save them. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Thousand Sons had some extreme form of internal balancing in the shape of perils of the warp being an AOE effect. Then any model that dies in a squad due to perils forces d6 models in the same squad to also suffer a perils. I would imagine Magnus would offer some sort of army wide stability to combat the flesh change and thus would have to be more powerful as he functions like a synapse creature sort of thing.

 Clefty wrote:
As a rule of thumb, the Primarchs probably shouldn't have access to Biomancy.

All of the books portray Magnus as the mind bullets master anyway, the obvious bio-manipulation has always been the Big E's territory.

The hard thing about balancing Magnus is that he isn't BAD at anything per say, Magnus can, and should be able to beat any of the primarchs on the table top. Now, the Thousand Sons have always been one of the weaker Legions, with the flesh change ravaging their ranks, they turned to their Primarch to save them. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Thousand Sons had some extreme form of internal balancing in the shape of perils of the warp being an AOE effect. Then any model that dies in a squad due to perils forces d6 models in the same squad to also suffer a perils. I would imagine Magnus would offer some sort of army wide stability to combat the flesh change and thus would have to be more powerful as he functions like a synapse creature sort of thing.

Angron is way tougher than how he's portrayed. He should be T7 with 6 wounds.
He aint though to counter balance his hilarious offensive capabilities.

Angron wasn't ever portrayed as tougher than a primarch. Mortarion was known for being durable, and is the most durable primarch. (After maybe Horus.)

 Clefty wrote:
Angron wasn't ever portrayed as tougher than a primarch. Mortarion was known for being durable, and is the most durable primarch. (After maybe Horus.)

Horus was never shown to be durable. He was never the strongest, or the toughest. Just the most balanced.
Angron was the guy with no sense of pain at all, who drilled a mile into the earth with a quadrant of his head missing, and subsequently after climbing back overpowered a Warhound Titan.
Angron is also "probably" dramatically tougher than Alpharius who has a statline with 6T and 6W.

Added some new units.
I want to make some makeshift thousand sons to use till the book comes out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not going to attempt to make rules for Thousand Son units.
Just Magnus.

Magnus doesn't feel OP so much as just weird. I would probably go something like this.
WS:6/ BS:6/ S:6/ T:6/ W:6/ I:5/ A:4/ L:10/ SV:2+/4+
I feel like stats should be base 6, with the only exceptions being wounds, initiaitive, and attacks for specific primarchs. Magnus may not have been like Angron or Fulgrim, but I'm sure he was more skilled with a sword than a generic centurion. As for the psychic powers, I like ML 6 because it actually is pretty reasonable as opposed to some crazy stuff like ML 10 or something. However I feel like where you mess up is his psychic powers by making it too confusing and adding your own disciplines. I would probably just have it be like this.

Magnus is a Mastery Level 6 psyker who automatically knows all of the powers from the following disciplines
Divination
Telekinesis
Pyromancy
Biomancy

Magnus can forfeit knowledge of any discipline, in which case he loses all powers with one discipline of his choosing and can make a roll on any other chart in the rulebook. He can do this for every discipline he knows if he so wishes. Magnus may also reroll any dice he wishes when rolling to cast his psychic powers in order to attempt to pass a failed psychic test or avoid perils.

I wouldn't give Magnus access to Malefic or Daemonology simply because I doubt he would summon daemons for battle and I doubt he knows how to specifically banish daemons using his powers. Denying him telepathy is more for balance than anything else since a primarch with invisibility is practically unkillable (hit on 6s, T6, 2+/4++ is one of the worst things to deal with) and would allow him to bring down guys like Angron, effortlessly if you combine biomancy, divination, and telepathy. This Magnus is pretty tough, and Magnus wasn't exactly a fighter so if you did wish to make him weaker I would probably lower his wounds to 5 like Angron rather than his WS. With WS 6 the skilled Primarchs (Fulgrim, Angron, Horus) are all hitting him on 3+ anyway and frequently before him. If you wanna weaken him further you can place a limit of one power per discipline per turn, so Magnus can't cast Precognition, as well as prescience on his unit, or cast biomancy and warp speed on himself so he can hit harder than, faster than, and survive better than any other primarch.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
What's his war gear? Also shouldn't he be WS7 atleast? He was more skilled than Lorgar who is only WS6

Reference? Both Lorgar and Magnus were "scholar " primarchs, they didn't put any effort into improving their combat abilities.


Personally I think the biggest disbalancer of a psychic primarch is the invisibility spell. I think its best if Magnus is unaffected by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For what its worth, I've put together my own interpretation of the thousand sons legion rules if you want to have a gander.(you need to sign in to the forum, but if you like the heresy you should anyway.)
http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/848-homebrew-thousand-sons-legion-rules/#entry26817

Buttons wrote:
Magnus doesn't feel OP so much as just weird. I would probably go something like this.
WS:6/ BS:6/ S:6/ T:6/ W:6/ I:5/ A:4/ L:10/ SV:2+/4+
I feel like stats should be base 6, with the only exceptions being wounds, initiaitive, and attacks for specific primarchs. Magnus may not have been like Angron or Fulgrim, but I'm sure he was more skilled with a sword than a generic centurion. As for the psychic powers, I like ML 6 because it actually is pretty reasonable as opposed to some crazy stuff like ML 10 or something. However I feel like where you mess up is his psychic powers by making it too confusing and adding your own disciplines. I would probably just have it be like this.

Magnus is a Mastery Level 6 psyker who automatically knows all of the powers from the following disciplines
Divination
Telekinesis
Pyromancy
Biomancy

Magnus can forfeit knowledge of any discipline, in which case he loses all powers with one discipline of his choosing and can make a roll on any other chart in the rulebook. He can do this for every discipline he knows if he so wishes. Magnus may also reroll any dice he wishes when rolling to cast his psychic powers in order to attempt to pass a failed psychic test or avoid perils.

I wouldn't give Magnus access to Malefic or Daemonology simply because I doubt he would summon daemons for battle and I doubt he knows how to specifically banish daemons using his powers. Denying him telepathy is more for balance than anything else since a primarch with invisibility is practically unkillable (hit on 6s, T6, 2+/4++ is one of the worst things to deal with) and would allow him to bring down guys like Angron, effortlessly if you combine biomancy, divination, and telepathy. This Magnus is pretty tough, and Magnus wasn't exactly a fighter so if you did wish to make him weaker I would probably lower his wounds to 5 like Angron rather than his WS. With WS 6 the skilled Primarchs (Fulgrim, Angron, Horus) are all hitting him on 3+ anyway and frequently before him. If you wanna weaken him further you can place a limit of one power per discipline per turn, so Magnus can't cast Precognition, as well as prescience on his unit, or cast biomancy and warp speed on himself so he can hit harder than, faster than, and survive better than any other primarch.

By "my own disciplines" do you mean one-use powers that keep things as uncomplicated as possible?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

By "my own disciplines" do you mean one-use powers that keep things as uncomplicated as possible?

Adding powers doesn't uncomplicate things, especially when the powers themselves are hard to balance and require that you keep track of loads of things. Take for example Macromancy, with it Magnus becomes the best primarch, wounding every other primarch on a 2+ and being wounded himself at best on a 4+ while gaining extra attacks (for some reason, shouldn't being giant slow you down?), and ignoring the first two wounds he takes each turn (yet another thing to keep track of). Combine these with stuff like Divination and he is objectively the best primarch.

Lets say he casts just Macromancy.

He has 8 wounds (for all intents and purposes since he can take 2 wounds with no ill effects), 8 Str 10 AP 2, rending attacks, while being toughness 10 and having a 4++ save.

Lets say he casts Precognition on himself the turn afterwards.

He has 8 wounds for all intents and purposes, 8 Str 10 (rerolls hits and wounds) AP 2, rending attacks while being toughness 10 with a rerollable 4++ save.

Not to mention the cheaper psychic powers in his discipline, void shields for 2 warp charge points. Gives a unit 4+ FnP, furious charge, rage, and conflagrate for just 2 warp charge points.

Honestly if you were trying to create a balanced psyker you chose almost the worst combination of powers possible. For these kinds of powers I would cost him at 1500 points, the guy is practically unkillable, can buff your entire army, and can solo most primarchs and probably a full unit of their bodyguards alone. Plus his bodyguard unit makes little sense, why is the commander of a squad of his bodyguards WS 6 when literally no other unit has WS 6 champions/Sergeants? Not Palatine Blades, not the Imperial Fists Templar Brethren or whatever, not the Firedrakes, not Justerin terminators. I don't even think any terminator guards have BS 5 standard.

So yeah, you in effect made the most broken primarch possible with the combination of psychic powers available to him, as well as his special discipline. Biomancy would be bad enough for a primarch, but your macromancy takes it to the next level so no primarch can even wound him on a 3, not even the guys wielding giant hammers. He is practically immune to the Strength 6 primarchs, Alpharius can't even wound Magnus with his Macromancy, and Fulgrim only wounds him on 6s because his weapon has rending. I understand that you like to stay true to the fluff, but Magnus lost to Russ and sometimes fluff must be sacrificed for balance. I bet the Salamanders players would love to have their primarch respawn every time he dies, but it simply isn't a balanced rule.

If you really wanna tone him down strip him of his special discipline and modify the powers he can cast. Even once Macromancy is gone Magnus still automatically knows Warpspeed, Iron Arm, and Endurance which still only uses 4 warp charge. So even without his special discipline you have a S/T 9 primarch striking at initiative 8 with 7 attacks while having FnP 4+. Even fluffwise Macromancy is redundant, iron arm alone is close enough in increasing his strength and toughness that he is still a giant with a higher toughness than any primarch by 2.

Buttons wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

By "my own disciplines" do you mean one-use powers that keep things as uncomplicated as possible?

Adding powers doesn't uncomplicate things, especially when the powers themselves are hard to balance and require that you keep track of loads of things. Take for example Macromancy, with it Magnus becomes the best primarch, wounding every other primarch on a 2+ and being wounded himself at best on a 4+ while gaining extra attacks (for some reason, shouldn't being giant slow you down?), and ignoring the first two wounds he takes each turn (yet another thing to keep track of). Combine these with stuff like Divination and he is objectively the best primarch.

Lets say he casts just Macromancy.

He has 8 wounds (for all intents and purposes since he can take 2 wounds with no ill effects), 8 Str 10 AP 2, rending attacks, while being toughness 10 and having a 4++ save.

Lets say he casts Precognition on himself the turn afterwards.

He has 8 wounds for all intents and purposes, 8 Str 10 (rerolls hits and wounds) AP 2, rending attacks while being toughness 10 with a rerollable 4++ save.

Not to mention the cheaper psychic powers in his discipline, void shields for 2 warp charge points. Gives a unit 4+ FnP, furious charge, rage, and conflagrate for just 2 warp charge points.

Honestly if you were trying to create a balanced psyker you chose almost the worst combination of powers possible. For these kinds of powers I would cost him at 1500 points, the guy is practically unkillable, can buff your entire army, and can solo most primarchs and probably a full unit of their bodyguards alone. Plus his bodyguard unit makes little sense, why is the commander of a squad of his bodyguards WS 6 when literally no other unit has WS 6 champions/Sergeants? Not Palatine Blades, not the Imperial Fists Templar Brethren or whatever, not the Firedrakes, not Justerin terminators. I don't even think any terminator guards have BS 5 standard.

So yeah, you in effect made the most broken primarch possible with the combination of psychic powers available to him, as well as his special discipline. Biomancy would be bad enough for a primarch, but your macromancy takes it to the next level so no primarch can even wound him on a 3, not even the guys wielding giant hammers. He is practically immune to the Strength 6 primarchs, Alpharius can't even wound Magnus with his Macromancy, and Fulgrim only wounds him on 6s because his weapon has rending. I understand that you like to stay true to the fluff, but Magnus lost to Russ and sometimes fluff must be sacrificed for balance. I bet the Salamanders players would love to have their primarch respawn every time he dies, but it simply isn't a balanced rule.

If you really wanna tone him down strip him of his special discipline and modify the powers he can cast. Even once Macromancy is gone Magnus still automatically knows Warpspeed, Iron Arm, and Endurance which still only uses 4 warp charge. So even without his special discipline you have a S/T 9 primarch striking at initiative 8 with 7 attacks while having FnP 4+. Even fluffwise Macromancy is redundant, iron arm alone is close enough in increasing his strength and toughness that he is still a giant with a higher toughness than any primarch by 2.

I was going off of Apocalypse pricing. In particular the Transcendent C'tan with it's S:8 AP:3 Assault 6D6 Flurry, and 15' "feth your gak" blasts every turn for 700 points. Both. Every turn. With Stomp attacks, and T:9.
Or the Aquilla strongpoint with it's ultimate "die in a hole you little whore" 15' S: D AP:1 Blast for 530. Not counting AV:15.
Or any variation of the Baneblade, or any Titan with their S: D trash can lids.
Like It or not he comes out far behind any Apoc only unit.
Magnus is so much more powerful than any other psyker we have rules for. If Eldrad was a pistol, Magnus would be a macrocannon.
He needs his own powers, or buffs to existing ones (What FW is probably going to do). And the best way/ most uncomplicated is to make those powers one-use.
He does need some limits on blessings though. Which I've added. Macromancy changed.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I was going off of Apocalypse pricing. In particular the Transcendent C'tan with it's S:8 AP:3 Assault 6D6 Flurry, and 15' "feth your gak" blasts every turn for 700 points. Both. Every turn. With Stomp attacks, and T:9.

We already have rules for primarchs as a base line. Use them. A transcendent C'tan is not a primarch.

Or the Aquilla strongpoint with it's ultimate "die in a hole you little whore" 15' S: D AP:1 Blast for 530. Not counting AV:15.

A superheavy fortification also isn't a primarch.

Or any variation of the Baneblade, or any Titan with their S: D trash can lids.

Also not a primarch.

Like It or not he comes out far behind any Apoc only unit.

No. No, he really doesn't. You only seem to think so for some reason no one has been able to figure out. Nearly every thread you've made with some Apoc creation has been met with people saying its OP and you being the only one who thinks its underpowered.

Further, all of those comparisons are awful and serve as no real point to benchmark from. We have rules for primarchs; use them. That's your benchmark. By that benchmark, Magnus should be sub 500pts, and have a statline and set of abilities that reflect that point cost.

My recommendation is to drop the special powers you're so very fond of, and just use book powers. Give him a special rule for his legion, and be done with it. Simpler, more balanced, easier to gain acceptance in friendly use.

Magnus is so much more powerful than any other psyker we have rules for. If Eldrad was a pistol, Magnus would be a macrocannon.

Great. Firstly, your opinion. Secondly, 40k fluff is so hilariously different from source to source that comparing in universe things is largely fruitless, especially for crunch purposes. Thirdly, this has no relevance to the crunch.

He needs his own powers, or buffs to existing ones (What FW is probably going to do). And the best way/ most uncomplicated is to make those powers one-use.
He does need some limits on blessings though. Which I've added. Macromancy changed.

He doesn't *need* his own powers. Using book powers represent his abilities just fine. You just aren't satisfied with something like 'Iron Arm' being a suitable representation for his mighty morphin power ranger ability (it is suitable, and more balance, and simpler).

Seriously, Buttons nailed it. Use the existing Primarch rules as a base, and keep it simple. Use book powers, add a special rule for his legion, done.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I was going off of Apocalypse pricing. In particular the Transcendent C'tan with it's S:8 AP:3 Assault 6D6 Flurry, and 15' "feth your gak" blasts every turn for 700 points. Both. Every turn. With Stomp attacks, and T:9.

We already have rules for primarchs as a base line. Use them. A transcendent C'tan is not a primarch.

Or the Aquilla strongpoint with it's ultimate "die in a hole you little whore" 15' S: D AP:1 Blast for 530. Not counting AV:15.

A superheavy fortification also isn't a primarch.

Or any variation of the Baneblade, or any Titan with their S: D trash can lids.

Also not a primarch.

Like It or not he comes out far behind any Apoc only unit.

No. No, he really doesn't. You only seem to think so for some reason no one has been able to figure out. Nearly every thread you've made with some Apoc creation has been met with people saying its OP and you being the only one who thinks its underpowered.

Further, all of those comparisons are awful and serve as no real point to benchmark from. We have rules for primarchs; use them. That's your benchmark. By that benchmark, Magnus should be sub 500pts, and have a statline and set of abilities that reflect that point cost.

My recommendation is to drop the special powers you're so very fond of, and just use book powers. Give him a special rule for his legion, and be done with it. Simpler, more balanced, easier to gain acceptance in friendly use.

Magnus is so much more powerful than any other psyker we have rules for. If Eldrad was a pistol, Magnus would be a macrocannon.

Great. Firstly, your opinion. Secondly, 40k fluff is so hilariously different from source to source that comparing in universe things is largely fruitless, especially for crunch purposes. Thirdly, this has no relevance to the crunch.

He needs his own powers, or buffs to existing ones (What FW is probably going to do). And the best way/ most uncomplicated is to make those powers one-use.
He does need some limits on blessings though. Which I've added. Macromancy changed.

He doesn't *need* his own powers. Using book powers represent his abilities just fine. You just aren't satisfied with something like 'Iron Arm' being a suitable representation for his mighty morphin power ranger ability (it is suitable, and more balance, and simpler).

Seriously, Buttons nailed it. Use the existing Primarch rules as a base, and keep it simple. Use book powers, add a special rule for his legion, done.

Magnus is mentioned as explicitly more powerful than a guy who moved the moon (1% the mass of Earth) in all sources, so.......
You also contradicted yourself hilariously by implying you thought the above units were more powerful, including the general category of "superheavy anything" I gave, and then said he was even with those.
So, Yeah.....
And yes Apoc only units of similar costs are able to be compared against each other. That's just common sense. Whether you like it or not.
I guess you could give Magnus S:7, and T:7, give him Mastery 6, and allow him to know all Malefic, Divination, Biomancy, and Pyromancy powers, and enforce limits on his Blessings. For 530 points.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Magnus is mentioned as explicitly more powerful than a guy who moved the moon (1% the mass of Earth) in all sources, so.......
You also contradicted yourself hilariously by implying you thought the above units were more powerful, including the general category of "superheavy anything" I gave, and then said he was even with those.
So, Yeah......

I don't care about the fluff, and neither should you. The statline is a representation, an abstraction of the basic abilities of a character. If you tried to make a literal translation from the fluff for anything marine, it would be unkillable.

I never contradicted myself anywhere. I pointed that; A) he is not comparable to the other units, seeing as he's not even the same type of unit as any of those example, B ) he is not weak, or overcosted, or underpowered; he potentially very overpowered, contrary to your claim; C) he's comparable to other primarchs, which would put him in the 300-500pts range; any comparisons you make by implying that a primarch is equal to a Baneblade is entirely of your own creation, I'm just using what FW has given us.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Magnus is mentioned as explicitly more powerful than a guy who moved the moon (1% the mass of Earth) in all sources, so.......
You also contradicted yourself hilariously by implying you thought the above units were more powerful, including the general category of "superheavy anything" I gave, and then said he was even with those.
So, Yeah......

I don't care about the fluff, and neither should you. The statline is a representation, an abstraction of the basic abilities of a character. If you tried to make a literal translation from the fluff for anything marine, it would be unkillable.

I never contradicted myself anywhere. I pointed that; A) he is not comparable to the other units, seeing as he's not even the same type of unit as any of those example, B ) he is not weak, or overcosted, or underpowered; he potentially very overpowered, contrary to your claim; C) he's comparable to other primarchs, which would put him in the 300-500pts range; any comparisons you make by implying that a primarch is equal to a Baneblade is entirely of your own creation, I'm just using what FW has given us.

A Primarch costs the same as a Baneblade, and they're both apoc only lending itself to obvious comparison. That's just common sense whether you like it or not.
You keep saying that's not a Primarch, which seems to just be a way of saying FW Primarchs are underpowered, and overcosted by nature.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

A Primarch costs the same as a Baneblade, and they're both apoc only lending itself to obvious comparison. That's just common sense whether you like it or not.
You keep saying that's not a Primarch, which seems to just be a way of saying FW Primarchs are underpowered, and overcosted by nature.

No. Its the same reason why people don't compare Leman Russ tanks to a tactical squad. One is a tank with a certain role, the other is an infantry troop squad with a different role.

The only thing a primarch and a baneblade have in common is they're Lords of War and somewhat similar point costs.

You continue to ignore the massive difference between units like that and why they can't, and shouldn't be compared directly.

Once more, we already have primarch rules; compare him to those.

As for whether or not FW's rules are overpowered or not for primarchs, I can't safely say, so that's why it makes the most amount of sense to compare Magnus to the other primarch rules we have.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

A Primarch costs the same as a Baneblade, and they're both apoc only lending itself to obvious comparison. That's just common sense whether you like it or not.
You keep saying that's not a Primarch, which seems to just be a way of saying FW Primarchs are underpowered, and overcosted by nature.

No. Its the same reason why people don't compare Leman Russ tanks to a tactical squad. One is a tank with a certain role, the other is an infantry troop squad with a different role.

The only thing a primarch and a baneblade have in common is they're Lords of War and somewhat similar point costs.

You continue to ignore the massive difference between units like that and why they can't, and shouldn't be compared directly.

Once more, we already have primarch rules; compare him to those.

As for whether or not FW's rules are overpowered or not for primarchs, I can't safely say, so that's why it makes the most amount of sense to compare Magnus to the other primarch rules we have.

They're definitely not overpowered what with Fulgrim cutting an elder tank to pieces, Vulkan tanking Macrocannon fire, Angron overpowering a titan, and Magnus implied ability to effortlessly move moons. I can say that.
What about the comparison with the Transcendent C'tan? They're both of similar cost, Apoc only, and incredibly destructive Biological monstrosities. You rolled right over that too.
Aetaos'Rau'Keres is a psyker comparable to Magnus, and he has unique powers.

They're definitely not overpowered what with Fulgrim cutting an elder tank to pieces, Vulkan tanking Macrocannon fire, Angron overpowering a titan, and Magnus implied ability to effortlessly move moons. I can say that.
What about the comparison with the Transcendent C'tan? They're both of similar cost, Apoc only, and incredibly destructive Biological monstrosities. You rolled right over that too.
Aetaos'Rau'Keres is a psyker comparable to Magnus, and he has unique powers.

Magnus is a primarch, use the Primarch material available as reference when creating Primarchs. It really is that simple, now quit gak posting.

 Clefty wrote:

They're definitely not overpowered what with Fulgrim cutting an elder tank to pieces, Vulkan tanking Macrocannon fire, Angron overpowering a titan, and Magnus implied ability to effortlessly move moons. I can say that.
What about the comparison with the Transcendent C'tan? They're both of similar cost, Apoc only, and incredibly destructive Biological monstrosities. You rolled right over that too.
Aetaos'Rau'Keres is a psyker comparable to Magnus, and he has unique powers.

Magnus is a primarch, use the Primarch material available as reference when creating Primarchs. It really is that simple, now quit gak posting.

It uses the template.
I love how you don't even attempt to give a counter argument

You are needlessly abrasive and argumentative, if veterans of this forum can't talk sense into you, then what gives you the impression I think I can?

Look, if experienced individuals raise valid points about your ideas and make no headway, you are in serious need of taking a critical look at yourself before you continue to post.

 ThePrimordial wrote:


I love how you don't even attempt to give a counter argument

And you do?

You need to take a serious look at your own posting trends. You call someone out for not giving a 'counter argument', but you have an awful habit of only responding to a very specific part of someone's response and ignoring the rest. You also get into very counter productive and largely useless fluff debates that have no reason belonging in a thread about balancing a character on the tabletop. When presented with evidence to the contrary, you inevitably point to a ridiculous event somewhere in the fluff where character 'X' moves a moon, or grows to the size of a titan, or blows up the galaxy, or some equally absurd justification for an un-balanced creation.

In this forum, balance and creating units that are an appropriate table top abstraction are the primary concerns. Making a character that matches the fluff *exactly* is never going to happen or is even a remotely good idea for reasons too many to list here. Making a character that is a great abstraction that also functions as a balanced unit people will enjoy playing against (remember, your opponent is the most important person to keep in mind during the design process) is what you should be striving for; not making a character who literally move the moon on the tabletop.

In your defense, the latest iteration is better, but still needs to be toned down. Adding a level of mastery to *every* TS unit is way overpowered. If it was a 6" Aura effect, sure, I'd buy that. I'd also tone down his ability to ignore perils; just give him a save against perils, like a 3+.

I'd also make him WS6 (like every other primarch) and T6 (which belongs to the normal primarchs we have). I'll buy S7 due to his supposed physique, but T7 is a stretch. Wargear is reasonable, though I don't have the other primarch entires on hand, so his gun seems a little strong. I'd knock it down to assault 2.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:


I love how you don't even attempt to give a counter argument

And you do?

You need to take a serious look at your own posting trends. You call someone out for not giving a 'counter argument', but you have an awful habit of only responding to a very specific part of someone's response and ignoring the rest. You also get into very counter productive and largely useless fluff debates that have no reason belonging in a thread about balancing a character on the tabletop. When presented with evidence to the contrary, you inevitably point to a ridiculous event somewhere in the fluff where character 'X' moves a moon, or grows to the size of a titan, or blows up the galaxy, or some equally absurd justification for an un-balanced creation.

In this forum, balance and creating units that are an appropriate table top abstraction are the primary concerns. Making a character that matches the fluff *exactly* is never going to happen or is even a remotely good idea for reasons too many to list here. Making a character that is a great abstraction that also functions as a balanced unit people will enjoy playing against (remember, your opponent is the most important person to keep in mind during the design process) is what you should be striving for; not making a character who literally move the moon on the tabletop.

In your defense, the latest iteration is better, but still needs to be toned down. Adding a level of mastery to *every* TS unit is way overpowered. If it was a 6" Aura effect, sure, I'd buy that. I'd also tone down his ability to ignore perils; just give him a save against perils, like a 3+.

I'd also make him WS6 (like every other primarch) and T6 (which belongs to the normal primarchs we have). I'll buy S7 due to his supposed physique, but T7 is a stretch. Wargear is reasonable, though I don't have the other primarch entires on hand, so his gun seems a little strong. I'd knock it down to assault 2.

I meant to give a range to the mastery buff, but forgot .
I've said this many times but a guy like Magnus with a 15 inch S:10 blast still wouldn't be anywhere near fluff correctness.

I've said this many times but a guy like Magnus with a 15 inch S:10 blast still wouldn't be anywhere near fluff correctness.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point?

If you're going to argue that, then what's the point even making rules for him. You might as well play everything else perfectly fluffy too. In that case; Orks can never lose; a space marine squad can quell an entire planet; Elgar would be moving to quick to be hit by much ; and the Imperial Guard wouldn't even need to deploy their army, just start playing large blast templates all over the board as an artillery bombardment.

But we all know how ridiculous the game would be if we played it exactly like the fluff.

So, once again, who cares? Stop debating the fluff and start looking at the balance and creating a reasonable abstraction.

Further, you have once again failed to acknowledge the rest of my post in a reasonable fashion. You side step the points people make and simplify them into a single point no one was arguing. For someone who called out another poster for not presenting a counter argument, you sure do like to ignore a lot of good points people make.

 Blacksails wrote:

I've said this many times but a guy like Magnus with a 15 inch S:10 blast still wouldn't be anywhere near fluff correctness.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point?

If you're going to argue that, then what's the point even making rules for him. You might as well play everything else perfectly fluffy too. In that case; Orks can never lose; a space marine squad can quell an entire planet; Elgar would be moving to quick to be hit by much ; and the Imperial Guard wouldn't even need to deploy their army, just start playing large blast templates all over the board as an artillery bombardment.

But we all know how ridiculous the game would be if we played it exactly like the fluff.

So, once again, who cares? Stop debating the fluff and start looking at the balance and creating a reasonable abstraction.

Further, you have once again failed to acknowledge the rest of my post in a reasonable fashion. You side step the points people make and simplify them into a single point no one was arguing. For someone who called out another poster for not presenting a counter argument, you sure do like to ignore a lot of good points people make.

I understand things can't be perfectly fluffy, and these rules still follow that.
I just understand the power of the characters , and attempt to include the same modicum of fluff accuracy GW does with other Apoc units.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I've said this many times but a guy like Magnus with a 15 inch S:10 blast still wouldn't be anywhere near fluff correctness.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point?

If you're going to argue that, then what's the point even making rules for him. You might as well play everything else perfectly fluffy too. In that case; Orks can never lose; a space marine squad can quell an entire planet; Elgar would be moving to quick to be hit by much ; and the Imperial Guard wouldn't even need to deploy their army, just start playing large blast templates all over the board as an artillery bombardment.

But we all know how ridiculous the game would be if we played it exactly like the fluff.

So, once again, who cares? Stop debating the fluff and start looking at the balance and creating a reasonable abstraction.

Further, you have once again failed to acknowledge the rest of my post in a reasonable fashion. You side step the points people make and simplify them into a single point no one was arguing. For someone who called out another poster for not presenting a counter argument, you sure do like to ignore a lot of good points people make.

I understand things can't be perfectly fluffy, and these rules still follow that.
I just understand the power of the characters , and attempt to include the same modicum of fluff accuracy GW does with other Apoc units.

Right, but people disagree with you, individuals far more interested in balancing homebrew disagree with you. The premise of these forums is to create something, have your creation judged and then hopefully have it become better for it.

You are far too unwilling to accept others criticisms and change your creations for the better.

 Clefty wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I've said this many times but a guy like Magnus with a 15 inch S:10 blast still wouldn't be anywhere near fluff correctness.

And? So? Therefore? What's your point?

If you're going to argue that, then what's the point even making rules for him. You might as well play everything else perfectly fluffy too. In that case; Orks can never lose; a space marine squad can quell an entire planet; Elgar would be moving to quick to be hit by much ; and the Imperial Guard wouldn't even need to deploy their army, just start playing large blast templates all over the board as an artillery bombardment.

But we all know how ridiculous the game would be if we played it exactly like the fluff.

So, once again, who cares? Stop debating the fluff and start looking at the balance and creating a reasonable abstraction.

Further, you have once again failed to acknowledge the rest of my post in a reasonable fashion. You side step the points people make and simplify them into a single point no one was arguing. For someone who called out another poster for not presenting a counter argument, you sure do like to ignore a lot of good points people make.

I understand things can't be perfectly fluffy, and these rules still follow that.
I just understand the power of the characters , and attempt to include the same modicum of fluff accuracy GW does with other Apoc units.

Right, but people disagree with you, individuals far more interested in balancing homebrew disagree with you. The premise of these forums is to create something, have your creation judged and then hopefully have it become better for it.

You are far too unwilling to accept others criticisms and change your creations for the better.

I completely removed the one-use powers.
Magnus' size advantage over the other primarchs justify S&T:7.