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Hey everyone,
I've recently been painting a megadread, and well been going through barrels of black and brown wash. I've been mixing my own with matte medium, acrylic ink, flow aid ; the les' recipe.

I'm enjoying using them, but find them to be a tad more glossy and a tad more glaze like than I'd like; I really liek the citadel washes, they behave great! and are really very matte.
Does anyone know of a matting agent that we could use to flat down the sheen to be more like a citadel wash?
Or something to make it pool in recesses more... its wants to glaze more than shade if that makes sense?

..I mean I can work with it as is... but would like to improve the recipe with the right additives

http://www.liquitex.com/ultramattemedium/

I use that a good bit. I also have some dry fillers from Guerra - but they are a bit of a PITA to mix in...so the Ultra Matte gets used more often than not.

Windsor and Newton brush on matte varnish, thinned 1:3 with drying retarder/flow aid and a couple of drops of whatever colour you want to use. The varnish is basically just a water based matte medium, so it dries matte instead of glossy.

I like using liquitex inks thinned with Vallejo's glaze medium to make a shading wash.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Ive been mixing Liquitex Matt Medium, Liquitex acrylic inks, and my own flow aid mix.

Where Les.B. puts in water/flow aid mix, I put in water/flow aid with a splash of liquitex airbrush medium in it - its milky white in colour this way - I have a bottle of this premixed for thinning paints in my pallet.

I'l try a splash of ultra matte as I have that already. I normally would use that when trying to mix up a basecoat colour as its not transparent, but is very matte.

I might try vallejo mediums, or a varnish instead of a medium... will report back my findings when I eventually get around to trying it out.

Edit; I might try adding some alcohol or windex or something akin tot hat; When experimenting with airbrush thinners I found a lot of solvents did cause the paint to go more matt/flat in finish from a usual semi-gloss one. Just would really like to get something a bit closer to the Citadel Shades - which I do still purchase tbh.. just not about to on larger projects such as this mega dread where I wouldve already gone thru a pot and a half :-o

I also tried the Les recipe and found it far too thick/glaze-like. Being a sporadic painter, I also ran into issues with separation, especially when using Liquitex matte medium (any mix that uses it - and I've made several - settles so thoroughly that the matting agent has to be scraped off the bottom and is difficult to re-disperse).

I've had much better luck getting away from Liquitex products (which perpetually disappoint me, to be perfectly candid - I'm biased against them, but at least the bias is entirely informed by my own experience) and exploring the "magic wash" and its variants. Pledge FloorCare (multi-surface squirt and mop), standing in for Future/Klear, is already so thin and flow-y that a bit of water is needed to tone those properties down. Once a balance is struck, though, it behaves quite nicely.

It does, however, dry somewhat glossy. I would never consider that an issue, since I always do a final varnish coat to equalize the finish (with selective tweaking, afterward), but I couldn't say how it compares with your current wash's sheen. The better behavior and economy (it's, like, $3 for enough to wash and varnish a large army), though, might make it worth your while to explore.

I've read that Tamiya's Flat Base (X-21) can be used to make Future-equivalents into matte varnishes - that may prove equally effective in flattening the finish of a wash. I imagine I'll share my findings on both counts, should I ever actually get around to picking up a bottle. Feel free to beat me to it, as that might expedite my inevitable purchase.

 oadie wrote:
I also tried the Les recipe and found it far too thick/glaze-like. Being a sporadic painter, I also ran into issues with separation, especially when using Liquitex matte medium (any mix that uses it - and I've made several - settles so thoroughly that the matting agent has to be scraped off the bottom and is difficult to re-disperse).

I've had much better luck getting away from Liquitex products (which perpetually disappoint me, to be perfectly candid - I'm biased against them, but at least the bias is entirely informed by my own experience) and exploring the "magic wash" and its variants. Pledge FloorCare (multi-surface squirt and mop), standing in for Future/Klear, is already so thin and flow-y that a bit of water is needed to tone those properties down. Once a balance is struck, though, it behaves quite nicely.

It does, however, dry somewhat glossy. I would never consider that an issue, since I always do a final varnish coat to equalize the finish (with selective tweaking, afterward), but I couldn't say how it compares with your current wash's sheen. The better behavior and economy (it's, like, $3 for enough to wash and varnish a large army), though, might make it worth your while to explore.

I've read that Tamiya's Flat Base (X-21) can be used to make Future-equivalents into matte varnishes - that may prove equally effective in flattening the finish of a wash. I imagine I'll share my findings on both counts, should I ever actually get around to picking up a bottle. Feel free to beat me to it, as that might expedite my inevitable purchase.

So what all do you use to make your wash?

Ingredients are, as hinted, quite simple: water+floor polish+ink. Hard to give an exact ratio, as I generally mix to the task, instead of making large batches. Recipes around the net for the wash base vary, from 1:2 to 1:10 (Future:water), but about 1:4-5 is the general consensus, and a good place to start.

Go heavier on the water if you try to tint it with paint, instead of ink (which works, but not nearly as well). Too much Future and you won't be able to control the flow - try it as a pin wash on a Marine's leg and it will run down the panel lines right to his feet. As with all painting, distilled water is generally preferred, but probably not an absolute necessity.

Thanks Oadie, always get a nice indepth response when you show up hehe.

As you say the final matte varnish should solve the sheen of the finish issue I'm seeing, or atleast even it out.

Currently my model is based in warplock bronze, drybrushed leadbelcher, then ironbelcher and washed all over in my home made wash; as I add in details in other paints the gloss of the wash will show against the other colours... Might work nicely as its only on metalics thus far... But I get this same issue if I do a face, or some cloth or leather etc.

Which is made of Carbon Black Liquitex ink, Liquitex Matt Medium, liquitex flow aid, distilled water and Liquitex airbrushing medium. (I use the airbrushing medium to counter the water/flow aid having a kind of maximum usable dilution; by adding the airbrushing medium, my bottle of it has some extra acrylic binder in for when I use it to thin paints on a pallet, I can go to any ratio happily that way.

...its entirely possible that its just that Im using liquitex stuff as you say; perhaps their idea of matt is a bit more shiny than mine The acrylic ink itself is certainly very very glossy, it could be just a failing of the medium to tone that right down.

Its in a 17ml dropper bottle with 3 little glass beads in as agitators.. so separation isnt bothering me too much with a decent shake up before use. (I have moved all of my citadels to droppers with agitators like this, so glad I did despite the extra expense on an already pricey paint.

I'l have a propper play around with what I've got to hand; 99.9% IPA, Vallejo airbursh thinner (I find this to be more flat than the liquitex, its also smelling just like a waterborne paint while the liquitex doesnt certain products may not mix well with waterborne) , full range of the liquitex mediums, the kitchen cupboard

... I seem to recall that when I tried windex (not windex.. but another glass cleaner) for thinning paint to spray, I found it did make a semi gloss paint go rather matt. While using the liquitex airbrush medium keeps it semi gloss.
The vallejo one was more flat than the liquitex on so that might be a good additive for my mix

I can get some other brands of mediums... perhaps golden, or windsor and newton, or vallejo... Or try varnishes in place of medium.

What I really would love to know... is what the heck does citadel use for their wash medium? I know they wont share their secret... but I havent found any other product that behaves like the shades exactly... just approximations really.

The Liquitex medium may very well may be the root of your issue. They have an ultra-matte that I would hope is more akin to what other companies call matte/flat, as their regular matte is halfway to being satin. Switching from medium to varnish isn't likely to change that.

I use their flow aid quite happily and have never seen a difference in finish, so I doubt it's that. Can't comment on their airbrush medium, as my local store doesn't carry it (or Golden's - every medium from either company except the ones I most want...), but if the Vallejo thinner (which I've come to love) is flatter, it might be worth switching to that. A different matte medium is still likely to give you a bigger shift in sheen, though.

I've also heard that alcohol makes acrylics go more matte when spraying, not just Windex/windshield wiper fluid. To me, that suggests that it's the general volatility of the stuff (it is designed to evaporate quickly, after all, for that streak-free shine) that does it, not ammonia or some other ingredient specific to the glass cleaners. I found that to be an issue when spraying, as it vastly increased tip-dry over plain water (let alone a dedicated thinner), but it may work for a wash that gets brushed on heavily.

I'd be leery, though, of using it for this purpose - alcohol-based washes have to be applied quickly and gently (or over varnish), otherwise you'll scrub away paint layers with surprising ease. I went back to the "dust and daub" method for weathering powders after my attempted shortcut (spread and fix simultaneously with a simple alcohol wash) stripped the surface right down to the primer. Having to varnish, first, would mean a net increase in time spent, even though the wash was faster.

HairySticks wrote:
... I seem to recall that when I tried windex (not windex.. but another glass cleaner) for thinning paint to spray, I found it did make a semi gloss paint go rather matt. While using the liquitex airbrush medium keeps it semi gloss.

The ammonia in the cleaner will actually split the polymer chain making it less able to form long chain bonds and the surface will be less smooth compared to an acrylic that has not been thinned with ammonia. It is a subtle effect, but noticeable. When acrylic polymers are in dispersion - they are long stringy chains. When they cure, the process of coalescing causes them to curl up into a ball. The long chains get hooked on each other when they curl, and that provides the strength of the film (and also allows them to stick to many surfaces like microscopic Velcro). However, shorter chains don't curl up fully into a ball - instead it is more like a crescent moon. The film strength and adhesion won't be as strong - and since they are not all a bunch of nice smooth balls...light is scattered more off from it.

What I really would love to know... is what the heck does citadel use for their wash medium? I know they wont share their secret... but I havent found any other product that behaves like the shades exactly... just approximations really.

You might want to get in touch with a surfaces company or a paint supply house like Guerra. Back when Ral Partha went out of business - I actually had a friend reformulate the binder they used. He was working as a chemist for DOW at the time, and it didn't take him more than an afternoon to get it sorted. They can tell you want binder and additives are required to match the flow and drying times, and how much of what matting agent is needed to match the glossiness. They do need a sample to work with though - so if you have a shop that is local to you...it may be easier to deal with.

I've had much better luck getting away from Liquitex products (which perpetually disappoint me, to be perfectly candid - I'm biased against them, but at least the bias is entirely informed by my own experience) and exploring the "magic wash" and its variants.

In general, I prefer Golden as opposed to Liquitex...but I can get Liquitex more readily. I have some Super Loaded Matte Medium from them that serves a similar purpose to the Ultra Matte Medium from Liquitex. I haven't had any greater issue with the Liquitex settling out though, at least no more than I have come to expect from heavy particulates like matting agents.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The ammonia in the cleaner will actually split the polymer chain making it less able to form long chain bonds and the surface will be less smooth compared to an acrylic that has not been thinned with ammonia. It is a subtle effect, but noticeable. When acrylic polymers are in dispersion - they are long stringy chains. When they cure, the process of coalescing causes them to curl up into a ball. The long chains get hooked on each other when they curl, and that provides the strength of the film (and also allows them to stick to many surfaces like microscopic Velcro). However, shorter chains don't curl up fully into a ball - instead it is more like a crescent moon. The film strength and adhesion won't be as strong - and since they are not all a bunch of nice smooth balls...light is scattered more off from it.

Does alcohol (isopropyl, if that would behave any differently from ethanol or methanol) have the same effect? If it's the ammonia in Windex that causes the matting effect (for your stated reasons, not the volatility as I would have guessed), I'm curious as to why alcohol appears to do the same thing. You seem to know quite a bit about paint chemistry, from your contributions to a number of threads, so you seem like the guy to ask.

In general, I prefer Golden as opposed to Liquitex...but I can get Liquitex more readily. I have some Super Loaded Matte Medium from them that serves a similar purpose to the Ultra Matte Medium from Liquitex. I haven't had any greater issue with the Liquitex settling out though, at least no more than I have come to expect from heavy particulates like matting agents.

I've only used Golden paint, so far, but found it infinitely superior to Liquitex's soft body offerings - wouldn't surprise me if I preferred their mediums, as well. Wish they sold sample sizes, as I find it hard to justify the cost of testing some of their products (the smallest available size of some mediums is still the cost equivalent of 3-4 new paint colors) over ordering something from Vallejo that I know will work for me. Golden stuff would be cheaper by volume, but the amount I paint means that variety/quality of most consumable supplies is usually more important than price per unit of volume.

The severity of my settling issue could be related to the other ingredients in my mixes, the length of time they get left alone (I believe - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - that some compounds can't be put back into suspension by physical agitation, as opposed to some chemical means, once they've precipitated out of it), or a combination thereof - I really couldn't say. Again, you're the chemistry guy, not me!