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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Zagman - so you will ignore the context of the statement, and pretend it means something else?

That isnt a RAW argument.

Not the context, just your assumption about the alleged context.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

it is in the Choosing your army section under allies, levels of alliance Come the Apocalypse section.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."

If you are CTA you can not deploy within 12” when deploying for battle.

Correct. You have successfully quoted THAT rule.

But you also say that THIS is a rule:

Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

And I can't find THAT sentence anywhere in the book. As far as I can find, deploying for battle encompasses any kind of deployment.

Jimsolo, I will try to prove that the rule must be talking about deployment at the start of the game.

...when "they" are deploying for battle.

Who does "they" refer to? If we look back, we see that they refer to units that are CtA. Since the rule references both units, this must occur at a time when both units are deploying. The only time 2 units deploy at the same time is when you initially deploy your army, or both units are arriving from reserves. Since the summoned unit is arriving after reserves, then the summoned unit and the summoning unit are not deploying within 12" of each other.

 Happyjew wrote:
Jimsolo, I will try to prove that the rule must be talking about deployment at the start of the game.

...when "they" are deploying for battle.

Who does "they" refer to? If we look back, we see that they refer to units that are CtA. Since the rule references both units, this must occur at a time when both units are deploying. The only time 2 units deploy at the same time is when you initially deploy your army, or both units are arriving from reserves. Since the summoned unit is arriving after reserves, then the summoned unit and the summoning unit are not deploying within 12" of each other.

Not true, "they" references "units". It is referencing correctly the deployment of all Come the Apocalypse units, whereas our specific situation only references one, the summoned Comes the Apocalyose unit.

Does not prove anything in the slightest. Not even close.

 Jimsolo wrote:

But you also say that THIS is a rule:

deathreaper wrote:Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

And I can't find THAT sentence anywhere in the book. As far as I can find, deploying for battle encompasses any kind of deployment.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

Can't a unit be "deploying for battle" while "deploying during battle"? It seems like it could go either way when I read it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

Incorrect, it is not my opinion, it is written into the rules.

I quoted them, let me do so again.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

This shows us that "an action or event happens ‘before the game begins'" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Ergo Deploy for battle = ‘before the game begins' as per the quote.

No getting around it.

And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

I am the TO for my FLGS and after reading this thread and the rules more than a few times, and after really looking at the implications for this I am going to rule that the use of the word deploy in the deep strike rule does NOT apply to the CTO allies 12" away deployment.

Forcing people to play it this way would just bog the game down and cause undue strain on the flow of the game. The Severe restrictions on how a unit could be used in these cases would cause more harm to the game than would help.

That said Jim if you want to play a game out your way just to show me how it isn't as bad as I think it is, you may do so at your convenience. We can take pictures to fully illustrate the way we played and even post the results.

I for one would think that the only way to settle this is to try it out and make sure.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

It does address the core issue. There is a defference between Deploying for battle (Which is done pre-game and CTA has a restriction on) and deploy during DS which happens when the CTA restrictions no longer apply as I have shown.

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

Deploying for Battle and "deploying via Deep Strike" (Special rules Deep Strike section, arriving by Deep Strike sub-section, 3rd bullet point) are not the same thing.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

we are because I have presented rules and you have ignored them

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

look at my previous posts the info is all there.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

Ah, that's your issue. You're conflating "deploy for battle" with "deployment", and assuming they're the same. The rule book states otherwise, as you have been shown twice now. Reread DRs quote, and note it defines exactly what has been claimed.

There's actually a quote in a recent WD (I think it was Issue 15) regarding the use of the Possession power by Ezekiel, who sacrifced himself to turn into a Bloodthirster. The meat of the comment was that everyone in the WD office now ribs the DA player about it every time he comments about incorruptibility.

Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

Oh well, sent a query off to GW's rules mailbox asking the question in general and with a specific example. Maybe it'll get answered before 8th ed.

LoH wrote:
...but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game...

Yea, I am not so sure even they know what they meant when they wrote some of these rules...

Though it is a little better than last edition, but not by much.

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

 Jimsolo wrote:

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

Apart from the part where it is. Or are you still claiming that deploying (general) is the same as deploying for the battle

 Jimsolo wrote:

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

And your assertion requires that the writers intended the pre-battle deployment restrictions to apply to coming in from Reserves or Deep Strike. The language used renders that particular point ambiguous, as it's not explicitly spelled out on the page.

There isn't, at this point, a handed-down-from-above Ideal "RAW" for this. So this argument is going to go 'round in circles, you sure in your own interpretation and anyone else commenting in theirs. I know my local group is going to come to a loose consensus on this particular issue, and that interpretation is going to stick until some guidance from Above lands. As for anyone else here genuinely interested in what to do, seems pretty obvious--talk it out in your groups (or write it out ahead of time for TOs) and pick an interpretation and run with it. Local meta fluctuates a bit as people get used to it, but that's normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

Incorrect, it is not my opinion, it is written into the rules.

I quoted them, let me do so again.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

This shows us that "an action or event happens ‘before the game begins'" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Ergo Deploy for battle = ‘before the game begins' as per the quote.

No getting around it.

I see a possible fallacy above: while it is clear that from what you have laid out that "before the game begins" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Your arguement does not prove that "deploy for battle" MUST happen before the game begins. How did you conclude that? Not that I disagree with you, missing that part in your process.

If one can prove that "deploy for battle" = "deploy", the above criteria can still be met in your example.

Indeed, a literal reading of the phrase: "...During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle..." indicates that the 'before the game begins' rules happen before the armies deploy. There is nothing to explicitly indicate 'when' deployment is supposed to occur in that rule, except at some point chronologically after 'the game begins'. The phrase is not inclusive just to that moment in time immediately after the game has started however, it can be read to encompass the entirety of the game or any discrete time-frame found therein.

Jimsolo is correct however, further additions to this argument are getting very repetitive.

I'll try to make the point made earlier more clearly.

There are restrictions on deploying. Those restrictions apply throughout the game, like lets say my squad of dire avengers is in reserve because they wouldn't fit on the table. I don't get to deploy them on my opponents table side later, just because it's no longer "before battle". They still need a rule to be able to come on somewhere else, like infiltration or deep strike.

Deep strike says they can deploy anywhere on the table. When summoning a deamon we now have four rules that contradict.


1. You must deploy iin your deployment zone.
2.. The faction rule says that I can't deploy within 12" of an eldar model.
3. Deepstrike says you can deploy anywhere.on the table.
4. The summoning says that "anywhere" must be within 12" of the summoning model.

rule 1 is a very broad scope rule, so that is trumped by all of the more specific rules that follow. The next rule is also a general rule, which is overrode by deepstrike ( a specific rule for that unit trumps a general rule for the army) Now the summoning rule overrides the "anywhere" for the less specific deepstrike rule (because it says it does) and restricts it to 12".

1. You must deploy iin your deployment zone. (general rule, overrode by all other rules)
2.. The faction rule says that I can't deploy within 12" of an eldar model. (more specific than rule 1, so trumps general deployment zone rules)
3. Deepstrike says you can deploy anywhere.on the table. (even more specific as it applies only to specific units instead of the whole army (rule 1) or a whole faction (rule 2)
4. The summoning says that "anywhere" must be within 12" of the summoning model. (a specific restriction applied to this type of deepstrike)

There's another option though that people aren't even considering and I completely disagree with the whole with in "12 inches" thing that people are stating.

Of course they intend you to summon Daemons, and not have a long drawn out Faux Legal argument aobut it ,but I'd just like to point out.

Well first off everyone is leaving this off

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

People need to actually understand what a word means, that deploying a unit during DEPLOYMENT, is not the same as deploying a unit from reserve. It's just not. It's Deploying from Reserve. What are you doing with that unit? It is being deployed from reserve.


Deployment Zones

Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided.

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.



It's very weird to go on here and read peoples interpretations as if they are some how making a legal argument, working in law its weird to read something like this on here because it's sooooo funny because new lawyers try this all the time with argueing letter of the law and it just inevitably get's crushed.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
So why does this matter because if you actually want to argue over this here it is.

We know that deployment, setup, and arriving are interchangeable terms with in the ruleset and that it depends strictly on the usage or verbage of that word in the context of what it is used in order to determine what it's definition is.

The definition of deployed can be interchanged with set up due to the language of the book and the book making that statement.

It is up to you the player to interpret what the context of that words usage is or if we were in court the judge.

The specific terms of units of reserve, they arrive. They are not Deployed. Deploying and Arriving are seperate usage and have different context with in the document in question.

while I agree with you as far as intent of the rules. (referred to here as RAI... rules as intended). but what you will be held to in tournaments is RAW. (rules as written).

Please read my previous post (the one right above yours). It supports your interpretation in a simple, by the rules way that I don't see how can be refuted.. If this was a courtroom I would be 100% on your side. If it were a friendly game I would be 100% on your side. but this is YMDC, and the rules as written are what you will need the support of to justify it in a tournament.

No one gets laughed out of a tournament for quoting raw. You will get shut down and be left frustrated if someone poorly interprets a rule, and you are stuck with their definition because you aren't familiar enough with the legalistic interpretation of the rules to support what the rules actually DO say.

Deep Striking follows none of the rules for deployment. The models arriving are deploying, but are not restricted by the rules used when deploying for battle. That's why you can choose to deep strike outside of your deployment area. The only thing you've proved is that deployment and deploying are similar words.

that's my point papasoul. Deepstrike specificly breaks all the deployment rules. That would include any less specific rules like not deploying within 12" of a model from an eldar codex

It's not me arguing RAI, it's me saying it literally has two different meanings . In that it's usage is changed because of the context in which it is written specifically.

For example:

A Flyer cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on the same turn.

Does this mean it cannot move onto the board with in 12 of a unit that has Come the Apocalypse?



I'll state it again , it's usage of the word deploy that you are inferring has one meaning only which I have already shown it does not

In the Section Titled

Come the Apocalypse

Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.


If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

Deployment: How the armies must deploy will be described here. Most missions also include a deployment map which accompanies the deployment instructions to describe how and where each of the armies deploys.

which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while still giving you enough space on a typical table to [/b]deploy your army. [/b]

There is a new section though entitled RESERVES

Standard Deployment Method
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and who will deploy second.

2. The side deploying first must set up all the units in their army.

3. Then the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4. The player that deployed first can choose to take the first or second turn. If they decide to take the first turn, their opponent can attempt to Seize the Initiative.

The following sequence is used in most Warhammer 40,000 missions:


RESERVES have their own special rules they are OUT OF SEQUENCE of the normal Set up and DEPLOYMENT RULES:

MISSION SPECIAL RULES

Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle

RESERVES:
Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and [ deploy it , moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.


All of these are different usages of the word DEPLOY, Reserves are not in the STANDARD DEPLOYMENT, where COME THE APOCALYPSE applies.


text removed.
Reds8n

Hollismon, by your interpretation if my dire avengers cannot deploy on turn 1 because there is no room, so are placed in reserve... they can deploy on my opponents table edge because rulse for "deploying for battle" do not apply after the game starts.

Nope. As it specfiically states where your Reserves come in at.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge.


Next.


RESERVES are not part of STANDARD BATTLE DEPLOYMENT.

You are inferring an alternate definition where none exists, but that really doesn't matter. regardless of if the standard battle deployment rules apply or not, deep striking would be a more specific rule, and thus trump it. Either way, you can summon a deamon within 12 inches of an eldar or sm.

But to argue for the sake of accuracy, there are plenty of holes in your theory... we can look at reserves for example as you stated.

"Combined Reserve Units During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves,"
-Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 10000-10001).

You will note it doesn't say "during deployment for battle"

This is such a stretch lol.

emmagine wrote:
that's my point papasoul. Deepstrike specificly breaks all the deployment rules. That would include any less specific rules like not deploying within 12" of a model from an eldar codex

Sorry, I was agreeing with you, my comment just happened to be directly under yours.

I'm baffled how this has gone one for 4 pages