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Does "add 1 to your armor save" mean add 1 to the result of an armor save die roll, or subtract 1 from your armor save value?

In other words, if a moel with a 3+ Armor Save has wargear that adds 1 to its armor save, and its hit with an AP3 weapon, does it get an armor save, or not?

If I paid points for a war gear, it had better improve something! If not, I'll be bringing it back to the shop with the receipt and price tag still on it!

Hehe... But on a serious note, I believe the above. If you paid for it , it should generally improve your model/character most of the time.

 jasper76 wrote:
Does "add 1 to your armor save" mean add 1 to the result of an armor save die roll, or subtract 1 from your armor save value?

In other words, if a moel with a 3+ Armor Save has wargear that adds 1 to its armor save, and its hit with an AP3 weapon, does it get an armor save, or not?

3+ armor save improved by 1 (add 1 to its armor save) is, RAW, a 2+ save. so yes, you'd get a save.
If the special rule is add one to your armor save roll, no you wouldn't get a save as that's modifying a different thing.

OK

I'm just used to Necrons, where the SW says something like, "a character with a SW has a 2+ Armor Save" (vs "add 1 to your armor save")

see modifiers section on how to use modifiers.

3+1=4

It might help if we knew what the specific example was.

It is frustrating they have used duel terminology by having a Armour Save Characteristic and Saving Throw both shortened to just 'Save,' it would of been far better for the Authors to simply remove the 'Characteristic' entirely but it's presence is useful. We don't have to keep flicking to the Armour section in our Codex's to show what our Models get when quarried as it is all on one page. A general Rule of thumb, if it simply states Save without stating which Save then it should modify the 'Characteristic.' It is that section contains the instructions informing us that equipment and Special Rules can improve the Characteristic and that it would decrease this value, so it has to have some purpose.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It might help if we knew what the specific example was.

I'm sorry, I just saw this terminology referred to in a separate thread, and had a little panic as I thought it might mean that my Sempiternal Weaves only add 1 to my armor save results, rather than granting the model an Armor Save of 2+.

But the Necron Codex at least is quite clear bout it giving the model a 2+.

It really comes down to the wording of the rule in question.

Stealth worded it well "1 pt better than normal" that would take a 5+ to a 4+

gone to ground adds 1 to the throw. so you'd still have a 5+ with a d6+1 roll.

but if it just says +1 to armor save, then the rules for modifiers is quite clear 3+1=4.

However, here is a relavant example:

p194 Sanctuary - it [a] gives a +1 bonus to invul save (which could be interpreted as a +1 to only the die roll) and [b] gives models without invul a 6++

I guess its the same exact end result for Invuls, since AP doesn't come into play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
but if it just says +1 to armor save, then the rules for modifiers is quite clear 3+1=4.

sirlynchmob wrote:
[...]but if it just says +1 to armor save, then the rules for modifiers is quite clear 3+1=4.

The above is not correct.

"Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better." (Digital page 457 Models and units section Armour[sic] Save (Sv) heading).

So to improve a save by +1 you actually lower it as that makes it better/improved.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[...]but if it just says +1 to armor save, then the rules for modifiers is quite clear 3+1=4.

The above is not correct.

"Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better." (Digital page 457 Models and units section Armour[sic] Save (Sv) heading).

So to improve a save by +1 you actually lower it as that makes it better/improved.

you should mark things like this HIWPI.

Can you quote the rule that says to do the math differently? no, you can't.

You can affect a characteristic positively or negatively by adding to it, ie a +1 to armor is affecting it negatively. Were told how to do RAW under modifiers 3+1=4.

yes a lower number is better for armor saves, but that doesn't change how we're told to do the math. Obviously any +X in relations to armor saves makes them worse.

more like you should mark your post with HNPI (how nobody plays it).


While in standard math 3+1=4, the obvious intent of the rule is to make your save better. As is explained on page 457 in the digital version, a lower save is better.


+1 to armor save acctually makes it lower. There is no reason to argue the point any farther.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
[...]but if it just says +1 to armor save, then the rules for modifiers is quite clear 3+1=4.

The above is not correct.

"Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better." (Digital page 457 Models and units section Armour[sic] Save (Sv) heading).

So to improve a save by +1 you actually lower it as that makes it better/improved.

you should mark things like this HIWPI.

Really I should not because that is the RAW, not HIWPI...

Can you quote the rule that says to do the math differently? no, you can't.

I showed that already.

You can affect a characteristic positively or negatively by adding to it, ie a +1 to armor is affecting it negatively. Were told how to do RAW under modifiers 3+1=4.

and armor saves work in reverse, that is actually in the rules I quoted...

yes a lower number is better for armor saves, but that doesn't change how we're told to do the math. Obviously any +X in relations to armor saves makes them worse

You are incorrect. as per my previous quotes, a +1 makes something improved, which for most stats increases the number, but for armor saves decreases the number.

It is all in the quotes if you do not ignore what I have wrote.

 DeathReaper wrote:

a +1 makes something improved.

This is where you are assuming things with no rules support.

a -1 to armor saves would be an improvement.

a +1 is a penalty.

do the math as you're told to under modifiers.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

a +1 makes something improved.

This is where you are assuming things with no rules support.

Actually supported by the normal rules of math that the game actually uses...

a -1 to armor saves would be an improvement.

a +1 is a penalty.

do the math as you're told to under modifiers.

you are ignoring the Armor save section, Don't.

I'm not ignoring anything, that line you put so much emphasis on just states the obvious. armor saves, lower is better. ok, so how does that apply to the math? it doesn't. We are told how the modifiers work in the game, now show any rule that changes the rules for modifiers. Where is the rule to change how modifiers do the math?

sirlynchmob wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything, that line you put so much emphasis on just states the obvious. armor saves, lower is better.

You understand this, good.

ok, so how does that apply to the math? it doesn't.

Incorrect, 100%

We are told how the modifiers work in the game, now show any rule that changes the rules for modifiers. Where is the rule to change how modifiers do the math?

In the rules I cited. A better armor save is lower. Adding 1 to an armor save to make it better lowers it.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything that actually says to "add +1 to the armour save"? Doesn't everything say something like "Improves the armour save by +1"?