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Alpharius wrote: Some would make good 'true scale marines' though.
I'm far less concerned about using these miniatures in other games than I am about not being able to use all the terrain I've got...
This is one of the issues I had with the Shadows of Brimstone KS. I wasn't terribly interested in the game, but the models were rather nice. But at the ~35mm scale, they just weren't compatible with my current collection of models and terrain.
Generally speaking, I'm not much of a scale nut. I use Knuckeduster models alongside Black Scorpion, for example. But once you go past ~30mm heroic or 33mm true-scale, things get too out of whack visually. 35mm is a weird space between the dominant ~28mm wargame scale and larger 40mm or 50mm scales, which are pretty popular in some areas.
Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. If the company wants to push that scale, more power to 'em. But bucking established market trends comes with a price. If you are going to do it, I think you've got to be comfortable with that reality, and realize that you are going to have a harder slog to prominence or a smaller customer base.
There's nothing inherently 'wrong' or 'stupid' about going in that direction, and I think it is good to see more diversity in the market. The models thus far look pretty darn nice, especially for digital sculpts. Of course, as digital sculpts, I expect that one could quite easily adjust the scale of the models if one was so inclined. Times, they are a-changing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 16:21:25
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
They may be going in that direction so you have to use there figures and no one else's. I'm finding recently that when I'm starting new game systems I'm not always using the particular companies models as I like others more or fibd said companies miniatures to expensive. Two examples I can think of is I use mostly Sedition Wars Strain models fir Deadzone and a mix if GW, Reaper and Avatars of War for Godslayer and plan to use GW Dark Elder for the new faction fir WM. Though this does work both ways as then people won't buy your models to proxie as others. They must be EXTREMELY confident in there Rule System for people to move to do this. I've pledged for this for the boxed game plus 2 starters, but with me as always I'll wait till the end of the campaign to see if the value will be there after streach goals etc....
Hmmm... Nice looking figures, but I'm afraid the scale all but rules me out from getting any. Those are just *too* far from the vast bulk of the rest of my figures (and terrain!) to be really interesting. Maybe some of the Battlesuits will be of interest, but that'd probably be it for interest from me.
scarletsquig wrote:Hmm.. scale is off, can't use the minis for other games.
Only if you use them to represent normal humans...
Alpharius wrote:Some would make good 'true scale marines' though.
This.
I could see myself getting some of the basic troops for this game provided the basic troop is completely covered in power armour type stuff and always have closed helmets. The alien beasties, being larger, might work great alongside normal 28mm stuff as big alien beasties. Like all the different size creatures in the Halo universe or something.
After seeing the larger size of the miniatures, I'm more interested in the troopers for other games, but totally not interested in the game and miniatures as a complete package.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I'm actually happy with the choice to go 35mm. After 4 years of mini painting, I'm fed up with 28mm. It's just too small a scale for me to enjoy painting anymore.
If I stay in this it will be with the expectation of using the minis for the game, so the scale doesn't mean anything to me.
I can't imagine terrain being completely off. All the lasercut stuff that I have (sitting in the box it was shipped in, in my basement) would work with 35mm from what I can tell.
If anything it makes it slightly more interesting to me as it distinguishes it a little from Infinity as far as my painting/modeling interest goes.
plastictrees wrote: If I stay in this it will be with the expectation of using the minis for the game, so the scale doesn't mean anything to me.
I can't imagine terrain being completely off. All the lasercut stuff that I have (sitting in the box it was shipped in, in my basement) would work with 35mm from what I can tell.
If anything it makes it slightly more interesting to me as it distinguishes it a little from Infinity as far as my painting/modeling interest goes.
Speaking of Infinity, I would be 100% behind a KS to recast that entire product line in 35mm. Infinity figures are amazing, but 28mm truescale is one of the most frustrating scales to work with. Makes pinning nearly impossible in a lot of cases.
Apologies if someone has seen me say this elsewhere (It continues to bug me enough to warrant posting when I usually just lurk) but this is 'not' in any way a 35mm game.
It's a 40mm game, they have now admitted this. That unhelmeted human is 40mm tall at least and the humans are the shortest of the available races.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/01 19:41:39
I really like the look of the miniatures, and this will probably get me back into the sci-fi genre....it's everything Mantics attempt at a boxed skirmish game should have been. I'm quite happy with the scale as well, having no similar game I would proxy them in for, but it is the stretch goals that confuse me. The basic game is met at £90000;
+£10'000 add one miniature, then add an additional
+£15000 for a squad of 5 troops, then
+£30000 for one miniature
all the other's are £15'000 jumps, I can see that they would have to tool a hero level character and the cost vs sales of this one miniature. ...and therefore it is the same cost as a squad you are already producing, but why the £30'000 gap on the third stretch goal? And is the following £15'000 gaps reasonable if they end up using resin or metal?
Hard to tell really, as it all depends on how much of their own money they are spending (is £90K all they actually need or is there a big investment on top from them)
it could be that this represents extra cash needed to secure production line time at the factory
it could be they have an unseen intermediate goal with no art/description yet that will be slotted in
or it could be at that point they feel they'd need an extra person on the team and the extra part pays a salary
And, with WWX and a few other games operatinig at this bigger scale, there are some more options out there.
I've got a TON of Infinity SF themed terrain though, and if this one was in that 28mm or 28mm 'heroic' scale, I'd be in for probably 2x of what I am now, with no threat of backing out.
I'm still on the fence here, but I am leaning on the 'stay in' side...
basement.dweller wrote: There should be a sticky about materials - and frankly "resin" is all materials that are viscous fluids that turn in to permanent solids. So even pvc is a resin when used in production. The good stuff is strictly speaking poly urethane resin and there are a lot of varieties of that as well.
There are just too many unspecific loose terms thrown around by a lot of companies and most of the time when we don't get specifics other than "resin" or "hard plastic" it's because being specific would be a negative for them...
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I can see a new marketing tactic by companies.
What will your miniatures be made of?
Our miniatures will be made of the finest grey non-metal material on the market.
And, with WWX and a few other games operatinig at this bigger scale, there are some more options out there.
I've got a TON of Infinity SF themed terrain though, and if this one was in that 28mm or 28mm 'heroic' scale, I'd be in for probably 2x of what I am now, with no threat of backing out.
I'm still on the fence here, but I am leaning on the 'stay in' side...
They don't have cross over themes though.
I can use my scifi terrain with Infinity, Mercs or my scifi mash up of bolt action. And may the gaming gods forbid... Relic Knights
The only reason I went in on a game like Arena Rex was because I do not have any terrain that is suited for the theme other than perhaps craters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/01 20:45:51
They look nice enough. I'll check this one out when/if it makes it all the way to retail and has some reviews out on the system. I'm not a big one for cards, generally speaking. Out of scale minis aren't the total dealbreaker for me that they are for others, but from unknowns in an unknown material and unknown rules...
Artemis Black wrote: Apologies if someone has seen me say this elsewhere (It continues to bug me enough to warrant posting when I usually just lurk) but this is 'not' in any way a 35mm game.
It's a 40mm game, they have now admitted this. That unhelmeted human is 40mm tall at least and the humans are the shortest of the available races.
When asked what scale the figures were in, it was 35. Now your adding in that there are larger scale figures, in a market of gaming in 28-32 scale?
That is the issue, BTW. It didn't work out so well for Inquisitor, it won't work out well for this one if people are put off by the scale.
At the end of the day, I'd honestly like to see a rules/ quick play. I'm honestly interested, the figures to me are top drawer, the stuff on deck is extremely well put together, with box art, painted figures, well put together pitch, discussion, open season stuff on the fluff.
The game has potential. Add in a gak load of diorama terrain from Tamiya, Revel, or Italia, and there is an awful lot of stuff that this game could bring to the markets.
It might even do well if you added in stuff from other toy lines, such as Marx, AMC, or resin terrain from other well known players.
Aside from my outright burnout from KS at the moment, and the ongoing skepticism that I have for it right now, I'd really like to see some of these figures right now. I honestly am tired of waiting for these KS games. I don't see the need to, and really don't want to, wait around like a chone for a year for them.
I'd like these guys at this company to send out a squad set and a quick play rules pdf before I commit to something of this scale/ size change. 1 it would open up discussions and the issue of the scale, two, we would be able to see what this is really about before we get wrapped up in some sort of KS shenanigans that we aren't anticipating with something like this.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
¿Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers miniatures?
At ScaleGames we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot. In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standard among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
This was the text that accompanied the size comparison picture in update 4.
you can find a number of their products on CMON's album painted by world class artists.
Their paint sets are excellent too, particularly the metallic sets, the alchemy ones. Probably the best true metallic paint on the market right now.
Using O gauge does mean you can use a whole heap of 1/48th scale commercial stuff for scenery and so on, so while it wont fir with the 28mm stuff, there is plenty of commercial product available.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 06:39:59
This looks like it has a lot of potential but from just reading their KS page it has a lot of strangely worded clauses. Currently the rules for the game are a mystery and I think the English translation of them could prove very problematic.
On the plus side the minis look great to me, but again the general mystery of the final materials is a bit odd.
That and there are just so many great miniature games out there at the moment it is hard to see where this fits in.
you can find a number of their products on CMON's album painted by world class artists.
Their paint sets are excellent too, particularly the metallic sets, the alchemy ones. Probably the best true metallic paint on the market right now.
Using O gauge does mean you can use a whole heap of 1/48th scale commercial stuff for scenery and so on, so while it wont fir with the 28mm stuff, there is plenty of commercial product available.
Are you aware of any building kits that 1/48 that would fit in the genre?
Te occasional factory kits could fit in, but for the most part, terrain kits out there wouldn't really fit in theme wise. WWII era, wood structures and Spanish missions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/02 21:35:09
Yeah, most model railroad stuff is based on the past. Futuristic layouts are really only popular among Japanese model railroad hobbyists and that region is dominated by 1:150.
I've decided that since this is likely going to fund, I'll take my usual wait and see and grab some of the Ares troopers once reviews and feedback from people with the final models in hand becomes available. I like the idea of true-scale marine analogues with a sleeker, more futuristic look, so hopefully they turn out well.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
frozenwastes wrote: Yeah, most model railroad stuff is based on the past. Futuristic layouts are really only popular among Japanese model railroad hobbyists and that region is dominated by 1:150.
I've decided that since this is likely going to fund, I'll take my usual wait and see and grab some of the Ares troopers once reviews and feedback from people with the final models in hand becomes available. I like the idea of true-scale marine analogues with a sleeker, more futuristic look, so hopefully they turn out well.
Hmmmm, I am looking at some of those Japanese model trains, pretty damn sleek. Tempted to buy one make a enlarged casting to use for infinity and mercs.
thanks for leading me on to this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/03 01:33:54
Artemis Black wrote: Apologies if someone has seen me say this elsewhere (It continues to bug me enough to warrant posting when I usually just lurk) but this is 'not' in any way a 35mm game.
It's a 40mm game, they have now admitted this. That unhelmeted human is 40mm tall at least and the humans are the shortest of the available races.
And Arty wrote a really good de-bunking of this KS HERE Text below - I'm too lazy to correct all the code to show the images - go and read it at source if you want them
Spoiler:
I've had a few discussions around the web the last week about a kickstarter that popped up. It started fairly innocent, Mcfonz posted up some images of minsi in the Shed and we oohed and ahhed etc. because the sculpting was pretty damn good. Of course at the time we thought they were standard 30odd mm figs. We later learned they were claiming '35mm scale', one might think that meant to the top of the head and would still make them pretty good and would match a lot of stuff. That's when certain arguments popped up. I wanted to put my thoughts on them all in one place...
"35mm scale".
Nothing in this Kickstarter is 35mm anything. After 3 days of being asked 'how tall are your minis' and repeatedly answering with '35mm scale' they finally posted an image of their minis next to others...
Image
That places that human at 40mm easy (the Terminator is 37mm and on a slightly deeper base). The other factions are even larger.
They then updated the front page of their Kickstarter to say "35mm to the eyes", also not true.
Their comments section is full of people saying that they'll match Dust minis and WWE minis etc and despite someone constantly replying to people nobody has corrected those mistaken assertations.
They only posted the scale image after receiving £50k in pledges and it's now buried as a tiny pic on page 2 of their updates, you actually have to go looking for it.
Larger Scale Minis Used for Advertising and Misleading Photoshopping
This image is being used for advertising what you get...
Image
The red 'Bitsie' is a 75mm miniature with her hair photoshopped a different colour - http://tinyurl.com/ocqdfg8
The Green Riffs seem to be renders, even though they have actual minis they could use instead. Notice that the renders of the Riffs and the Ares guys have photoshopped bases, they have photoshopped out the real 25mm bases from the Ares troopers and photoshopped in larger bases. Coincidentally this makes the minis look much smaller than they are. I can't see any other reason for doing this.
That's the 40mm mini from the earlier scale shot. Notice the rail on the gun looks considerably softer, less gap between the ridges. And the armour lining looks shallower and softer too. in my opinion (And this one is 'just' opinion until someone posts an image of the blue painted one next to anything) the blue one is an even larger scale printout than the green one, which as seen above is already a 40mm figure.
You might ask why I'm bothering with this. Honestly, it's just bugged me. Every time a Kickstarter comes along and grabs a lot of people into it, that's a large part of the customer base for future kickstarters in the sci-fi/modern/fantasy genres. And every time a Kickstarter disappoints those people it runs the risk of leaving them burned on kickstarters in general and thus lessens the customer base for anyone who wants to run a future kickstarter. I see people commenting on kickstarter threads all the time saying exactly that.
For me this kickstarter has numerous issues, some even bordering on mis-selling. Using images of larger scale minis, misleading photoshopping, outright stating the wrong scale, not being clear what material the finished products will even be in (repeatedly stating that they want hard plastic, but not stating what material they will be in if the project funs at 90k only), not answering straight questions with straight answers and so on.
I figured it'd be nice to stick this all in one thread somewhere in case someone asks me what my problem with them is.
