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Right - personally I am only interested in what material they come in. Size is of less importance and I quite like the fact that they are larger.

So - Ares are supposed to be a bit smaller than Riff and still Ares are superhumans that are larger than normal humans.
Unless "normal" humans exist in the game though, the baseline for scale will be Ares. I did not find a good angle
picture to measure pixels and get an exact number for Ares so I did that with the Riff that are supposed to be a tad larger than
humans unless I am grossly mistaken (which can happen as I am "normal").

Not being sure of the base size I used the known measurement of the Mantic building floor that is 3" or 7,62cm.
Using the friendly grid there pretty much confirms the bases are 25mm. Assuming the aspect ratio is correct in the photo
and 1 vertical pixel = 1 horizontal pixel I just rotated the base and pasted two copies on top of another. This is 50mm.
Using the measuring tool in pixels and assuming the angle in the photo is negligable - top of his head comes to exactly 45mm.
I did not measure to his eyes, but it looks to me like that is close to 41mm.

Don't take this is fact as it's not, but it's a fairly accurate extrapolation.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So the accusations that the sculpts shown were 75mm sculpts photoshoped on bases and not what they intended to produce are now forgotten since the models are shown to be the real thing and we now focus on size and the quite valid (and only) question of material?

No, the 75mm miniatures 'are' still 75mm minis, nobody claimed these ones shown on the terrain were.

The red 'Bitsie' and the 145k stretch goal female commissar type are the 75mm figures.


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 basement.dweller wrote:
Right - personally I am only interested in what material they come in. Size is of less importance and I quite like the fact that they are larger.

So - Ares are supposed to be a bit smaller than Riff and still Ares are superhumans that are larger than normal humans.
Unless "normal" humans exist in the game though, the baseline for scale will be Ares. I did not find a good angle
picture to measure pixels and get an exact number for Ares so I did that with the Riff that are supposed to be a tad larger than
humans unless I am grossly mistaken (which can happen as I am "normal").

If you look at the earlier shots of the Riff and the Ares in full suits next to the game's own scenery they look pretty identical in height. The human female and male without helmets on look around 40-41mm so I'd say 44-45mm for the others is a reasonably accurate guesstimate.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is...?

But, shouldn't what material will be used here be clear at the start, or by now?

They stated hard plastic.

Or metal or resin depending how the kickstarter goes.

Found these in the comments section.

This is the first free Stretchgoal model Sihlas

And this is titled "Riff final" in the album??

 Vertrucio wrote:
I don't really have much of a stake in this argument, but some people are really reaching for reasons hate, more than the problems that are already there. Let's focus on making them fix what are the real issues first.

You know what else isn't constructive? Dismissing criticism as 'hate'.


I'm tempted to ask legoburner to just add the word 'hate' to the Dakka word filter. It seems to be massively over-used these days.


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 Delephont wrote:
It seems to me that most of the "butt hurt" comments regarding scale is because these models can't be ported over the WH40K.....my suggestion to those who feel that way is simple, stop repeating yourself, don't buy in, and go buy minis from GW vast range....duh?!?

The issue with scale is nothing to do with them being usable in 40K or not.

As that raft of pictures show, at this scale they potentially don't work particularly well with people's existing terrain collections. Whether or not you're intending to use them in other games, having to go and build all new terrain for them is going to be a turnoff for many potential customers.


For others, the size issue is an aesthetic one. It's not necessarily a rational thing, and I don't know if I could pin down a reason for it... but I like 28-30-ish mm figures. The bigger they get, the less interested I am in them.

The ONLY issue remaining for me is the MATERIAL question.

I'm a bit worried that they won't just answer it, straight up.

"The material if we hit the £90K goal with be (X)"

"If we get up to £(Y) the material will be (Z)"

They HAVE to know this already, right?

The fact that the material issue wasn't resolved before they started is a concern, since it affects the sculpting process as well. Showing off concept minis is pointless if they wind up having to be completely reworked for whatever material they finally decide to cast them in.

 Alpharius wrote:
The ONLY issue remaining for me is the MATERIAL question.

I'm a bit worried that they won't just answer it, straight up.

"The material if we hit the £90K goal with be (X)"

"If we get up to £(Y) the material will be (Z)"

They HAVE to know this already, right?

I assume they know to some extent. But not having a lot of exp. such as say GW, they are probably afraid to make guarantees.

cost of production, materials, printing costs, shipping packaging, labor, overhead, taxes, Amazon and KS fees. There is a lot to keep track of.

They probably don't know how big or small this thing will get which is why they are reluctant to give anything firm.

 Piston Honda wrote:
They probably don't know how big or small this thing will get which is why they are reluctant to give anything firm.

Catch 22 sadly. Without giving something firm, it's unlikely to get (as) big.

Or, they ran the cost benefit analysis and it came up on the stay quiet side. Or, the culture/language barrier means not only are the questions directed at them aren't getting to them properly, but then the answers aren't getting to us properly as well.

Announcing some version of restic, or hard plastic, or unobtainium probably won't matter in the end, especially for the scale of their game. We've seen actually good sculpts and casts of restic, usually larger stuff with enough form to hold the restic in place.

And if you look at the KS numbers now, despite all this bickering over scale, material, or whether or not they're being up front enough and giving us hard numbers/statements, they're still fully funded at 90,000 pounds, or roughly $150,000 USD.

I'd say that's pretty big already.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Or, they ran the cost benefit analysis and it came up on the stay quiet side. Or, the culture/language barrier means not only are the questions directed at them aren't getting to them properly, but then the answers aren't getting to us properly as well.

If they ran the cost benefit analysis and are keeping quiet that doesn't bode well. Also they have a guy that are doing their rules translations to English and has been on the KS forum. Honestly I could see a cultural barrier if we were talking about Fidji or Bali, but Spain does not qualify at this level. Biggest cultural difference being the Siesta that I think most that partake find an excellent practice. As for language barriers as long as they are not like that desperate spanish housewife lady Mercedes I once met that kept saying "breastf*ck is the most important meal of the day" we're fine.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Announcing some version of restic, or hard plastic, or unobtainium probably won't matter in the end, especially for the scale of their game. We've seen actually good sculpts and casts of restic, usually larger stuff with enough form to hold the restic in place.

Hard plastic:

1) one of a gazillion different types of plastics in hard version including restic and pvc

2) Highly aroused plastic

3) Like hard drugs it leads to the dark abyss of addiction and plastic substance abuse.

Obviously hard plastic means 1) but which one makes a huge difference. So calling it anything other than the specific material or straight comparison to an existing product (gw for instance) is useless information. On that I agree. I highly disagree that material choice in their scale does not matter. Of course it matters. If it's a form of PVC it's more likely going to suck than not compared to other materials - and this based on track record. There is a game called "Journey" that is made in a similar scale and they did both resin copies for collectors and a pvc lineup of the same figures. For me the PVC counterparts look awful in comparison.

Pictures comparison pvc/resin and link spoilered

At least if you like to paint and collect like I do more so than game. I don't think PVC is necessarily bad - it's bad for people like me. Most people would also agree that there is a clear quality loss compared to other more reliable materials for fidelity purposes. Some manufacturers even willingly admit this (mostly because there is no way to spin the results).

Sorry for the ranty bit, this is not aimed directly at Scale Games, but I am so tired of this vagueness that seems to plague most KSs and this notion that PVC is as good for larger stuff. It can be good enough for some at most. Drakerys is using PVC and they are promising excellent results. I applaud their openess, but remain skeptic about their promises yet hope they produce some great stuff so I can buy it later. Their "sceneries" are being made in "hard plastic" for the love of.... I pledged $10 on the MERCS boardgame recently in order to have the opportunity to get the mercs figures in "hard plastic" as I assumed it meant HIPS. In reality it could turn out to be all pvc and they never said anything to the contrary.

There is no shame or downside to being specific about what material you intend to use unless that material sucks and then of course it matters. Being vague is what you do when you don't want to commit to something yet keep the promise and hope of something better. In worst case scenarious being vague is what you do when you don't want to be caught lying. It's PR clean and simple. As Alpharius mentioned earlier - they could simply state a ballpark number of how much they'd need to use a specific material. State at least what materials they are choosing between. Hard plastic or injection molded plastic means nothing. If they can't do that, they should at least explain why and what they are considering in more specific terms than have done up to this point.

 Vertrucio wrote:
And if you look at the KS numbers now, despite all this bickering over scale, material, or whether or not they're being up front enough and giving us hard numbers/statements, they're still fully funded at 90,000 pounds, or roughly $150,000 USD.

I'd say that's pretty big already.

There is a bunch of ladies with faulty implants that jumped on a groupon bandwagon a while back. I'm sure the facts were vague, but the price was right
Regardless I am still pulling my pledge if I don't know what I am getting. And I've been looking forward to this ever since I got wind of it quite a while back. I think the designs are full of awesome.

EDITED to include material comparison of Journey

I've read in the comment section that if their facebook page gets X number of likes the stretch goals will all be reduced by 5,000?

was this the plan from the beginning, increase high stretch goals and only reduce them afterwards? To create marketing buzz?

Or was this just done at random and in response due to uncertainty and reluctance of some people? If so, is doing such economically sound?

That's assuming if what I am reading is true.

The facebook thing was in from the very start. They have a roadmap of "stretchgoals" for x number of likes on facebook. I see that as highly effective marketing really. I kind of like restic more than fb though

"if X number of people like us, our manufacturing costs magically come down, and we can reduce our stretch goal targets."

If X number of people like us this will translate into Y more sales when we hit retail

therefore we can afford to take less profit per unit (making up the difference with more units sold)

therefore we can reduce our stretch goals as we become confident enough to risk more of our own cash (or borrow cash from a non crowd funding source)

seems reasonable to me

SCALE GAMES 9 minutes ago
Hi folks. We can make production in ABS or PVC, this is why there is no a final answer. ABS is a good material but its so hard that it's very difficult to extract some geometries from the moulds. PVC is softer and its also a good choice but there are many many variants that its difficult to say one. But as we have said it will be a good material there are more than 25 golden demons among the team so quality will not be a problem.


So PVC it is. I'm out.

Yep. Had enough of that crap. I was tempted to check out Mantic's latest offerings after seeing some painted finished miniatures, but fortunately the Restic Knight thread reminded me of just how not fun the material was the last time I worked with it.

ABS is a good material but its so hard that it's very difficult to extract some geometries from the moulds.

They say that like it's a bad thing. Better ABS or HIPS that forces them to design the cavities correctly than restic crap that lets them just rip and warp the miniatures pulling them out before they're fully set.

I guess we know why they were being a bit evasive then.

PVC = No Sale for me.

At least, not in a pre-order/Kickstarter format.

Retail it is.

Maybe.

I agree with the material comments, so I pulled my pledge as quick as you like. I love how they reference the Golden Demons....do you get a Golden Demon for manufacturing excellence nowadays? I always thought it was for painting and model assembly?!?

Anyway, I was only interested in the miniatures, and seeing as that's the biggest risk factor in this venture I'll spend the money on p*rn instead!

I'm confused by all of the comments about "Scale cares too much about quality to mess this up!"

Well, they haven't made anything in this scale, on this scale, yet.

And we all know how multiple Golden Daemon winning McVey's Sedition Wars turned out in PVC too.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm confused by all of the comments about "Scale cares too much about quality to mess this up!"

Well, they haven't made anything in this scale, on this scale, yet.

And we all know how multiple Golden Daemon winning McVey's Sedition Wars turned out in PVC too.

Spot on.

I haven't pulled my pledge yet as I'm hopeful they will commit to ABS over PVC, but if they don't, then I'm out.

Same here.

I've just about given up on the comments section for this one too.

WAY too much sunshine blowin' going on in there.

People saying they have 'faith' that they'll chose the right material and there's no way they'd put out inferior quality miniatures?

Yeah...

There really should be no way that they do NOT reveal the material to be used for these miniatures ASAP.

BETA RULES ARE HERE THOUGH!

Update #16

Jun 7 2014
Beta Rules
Comment
2 likes

Hi, now you can download a copy of Fallen Frontiers beta rules.

This document is intended for you to familiarize with mechanics of the game but is not the complete rulebook. Over the next couple of weeks we will expand the information with examples, pictures and even some video. We also will open a forum to discuss the rules on monday.

Enjoy!!



http://www.fallenfrontiers.com/images/FF-Beta-Rules.pdf

Tear into 'em guys - let us know what you think!

 Alpharius wrote:
WAY too much sunshine blowin' going on in there.

Standard fare for any KS comments, really (at least whilst the project is live). In order to post you have to be a backer, which means you have a vested interest in muting the criticism (in case it harms being funded/getting to stretch goals).

You're right, of course, in that the (perhaps) overly aggressive positive types will be the majority, but with all of the bad PVC examples out there I'm still shocked at the lack of concern over material choice here.

Well I'm sitting on my eb pledge till the final days where hopefully everything becomes clearer. I still need to see examples from the manufacturer before comitting to this one, I was really disappointed with the warzone material after all the hype and promise of plastic figures and this seems very similar.

The rules aren't bad, but calling them a beta set is being polite. 16 pages, 3 of which are full colour art and the rest have very little actual text on for a full page.

It's sort of a rules pamphlet at best and they are incredibly basic. I've seen beter rules for people's demo games at Salute, anyone with an interest in wargaming could have knocked these up over the weekend at the pub.

But going by the comments section they will be hailed as the saviour of wargaming within a few hours. I really need to find a couple of these crazy cheerleaders for my future projects.


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 Vain wrote:
Sooooo, Artermis...will we be seeing you in the Hasslefree thread now that you have popped your lurk bubble?

Yup, just waiting for our sale to b over so I have some time and I plan on being a little more active around more forums. Most time consuming is learning each forums rules for commercial representation and then the general 'feel ' of the forum like whether you're allowed to swear or be sarcastic. I am making a text file for each forum so I don't forget

Well I had to back out. PVC/restic is just not for me.

Even if the miniatures came out great with sharp detail, does not change the fact working with this material just sucks camel hump. And having to do it with 20, 30, 40+ figures?

No thanks. I want to be able to paint and play with my minis. My hobby time as been at a minimum as of late as well.

I get these promises such as the case with Drakerys that there are many types of PVC (true) but shouldn't let the issues of other miniature overshadow their product.

What process do they have that Mantic and CMON do not have access to? If it is true, what current example can they point to me that would make me believe such claims (I'm still waiting for a reply from Don't Panic, by the way). If the process is a new one, make gives them such confidence that it will work? What exp. do they have?

PVC/Restic material has been a blanket for companies to hide under so they can use the word plastic having people think they are going to get something similar to GW.

Okay, while I agree that the material has problems with detail, let's be honest here. Restic can't be much, if any, more difficult to work with. Different? Of course, but that much more difficult than metal or abs plastic, other than having to use super glue?

It doesn't scrape well, so mould line removal without destroying detail is a pain. It is often removed from moulds before it has completely hardened to allow undercuts, so miniatures are often twisted, some times never straightening properly even with hot water fixing. The detail of the miniatures can also be a lot worse when they are PVC.