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I'm tempted just to pledge for paints. Although I night stay for the models even if PVC, sacrificing my sanity for final answers, proving my valour to the Restic Knights. I shall fall on to my sword, broken, bent, twisted. Not through injury but merely as I forgot to use hot water to straighten things out.

I think PVC just needs better branding: "Fire, steel and blood. For models that are not assembled but forged, choose PVC."

In all seriousness, I'm much more optimistic about the outcome here. Scale really does seem to be committed to quality (they claim that the final decision on material will not be a financial one), and when treated appropriately PVC can work decently well.

Do people remember Mantic's early non-Kickstarter stuff in this medium, like the Orc boar riders? Pretty crisp, minimal moldlines. I think a lot of Mantic's Kickstarter stuff was frankly rushed, and it suffered from hasty castings.

I think that the basic Sedition Wars stuff was mostly fine, and wave 2 suffered from scheduling and communication issues (e.g not factoring in the shrinkage).

Finally, the fallen frontiers stuff is BIG. Even basic troopers are quite large, and appear to have quite deeply-cut detail from the models we've seen. It is a world away from the unarmoured true-scale 28mm stuff of Sedition Wars.

Bioptic wrote:
I think PVC just needs better branding: "Fire, steel and blood. For models that are not assembled but forged, choose PVC."

No, PVC needs to not be gak. Restic earned its bad reputation.

If somebody can use PVC and not have the result turn out to be gak, they should prove it first. Then we can talk.

Bioptic wrote:

Do people remember Mantic's early non-Kickstarter stuff in this medium, like the Orc boar riders? Pretty crisp, minimal moldlines. I think a lot of Mantic's Kickstarter stuff was frankly rushed, and it suffered from hasty castings.

Detail was better, warping was just as bad. And on 2-part cav with thin spears, not so fun.

The quality has gone down since then, some of my deadzone stuff doesn't have faces.

I've been hearing some not so good things about Journey's PVC as well...

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been hearing some not so good things about Journey's PVC as well...

Ruh Roh. Really? I thought the stuff looked solid at Adepticon. Have they been having trouble in the mass production?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been hearing some not so good things about Journey's PVC as well...

Ruh Roh. Really? I thought the stuff looked solid at Adepticon. Have they been having trouble in the mass production?

Hasn't shipped yet, so not sure where the issues are coming from.

We've been monitoring this Kickstarter from the beginning. As we've said before, we are all gamers here and we keep on playing and enjoying a wide variety of miniature games. We know first hand how much "real plastic" costs and having looked at this carefully it does leave a lot of question marks.
Nonetheless we wish them success and that they'll deliver what they promised since they have been now fully funded.

 basement.dweller wrote:
In worst case scenarious being vague is what you do when you don't want to be caught lying. It's PR clean and simple.

No offense but that's not PR. Where we stand it's probably considered as cheating. Again, no offense intended.

I'd have to think "Scale" has a plan, and knows both what material they're using if funded, and what materials they'll be able to use if over-funded by (x).

Not sure why this can't be clearly communicated though.

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been hearing some not so good things about Journey's PVC as well...

They were 100% transparent though. They even had separate pledge levels for PVC and resin, and posted side by side shots showing the loss in detail in PVC.

willb2064 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I've been hearing some not so good things about Journey's PVC as well...

They were 100% transparent though. They even had separate pledge levels for PVC and resin, and posted side by side shots showing the loss in detail in PVC.

We haven't followed anything that has to do with Journey but if what Wilb2064 said is correct... then that's PR as it should be.

Hah - yes, since Marrow can just pop down to the factory in a car, the production examples (and pictures of the process) are quite a bit more detailed than normal! Without getting too off-topic, you can see the resin vs. plastic (mixture of PVC & ABS, as per Wrath of Kings) shots here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588487845/journey-wrath-of-demons/posts/822348

...which I actually think look quite good! The biggest loss of detail is in small faces though.

Production shots, stating that the final product is much crisper than the Adepticon models:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588487845/journey-wrath-of-demons/posts/842304

Either way, I hope we get some feedback from Scale on Monday - they don't seem to do a bad job in responding, but language is clearly still a bit of a barrier.

Don't think I've seen such a hostile comments section on a ks before, especially where people are asking valid questions.

Doesn't look like the pledge total is moving much, shame I like the look of the game but would like some more transparency from the creators, unlike some of the backers I need more than faith to keep my pledge.

 edlowe wrote:
Don't think I've seen such a hostile comments section on a ks before, especially where people are asking valid questions.

Doesn't look like the pledge total is moving much, shame I like the look of the game but would like some more transparency from the creators, unlike some of the backers I need more than faith to keep my pledge.

I was considering backing for a £1 just to post the link to my RP thread then count how many people insulted me within the first hour. Could run a book

I said somewhere above about wanting some cheerleaders myself but I'm not certain if they do more harm than good when they are too rabid. On the one hand they are making up their own answers to people's questions and naysaying any doubts, which removes the need for Scale to comment themselves for the most part and when push comes to shove they will never have said any of the answers themselves officially. On the other hand newcomers might be put off by the sheer frothy lunacy and 'have faith' type malarkey.

It's definitely prevented me from posting in the comments, at least Alpharius is there fighting the good fight

I want this one to do well and I want to stay in and get a good game and some cool miniatures.

All I need are a few basic answers and I'll be good to go!

Or stay...

Or leave, of course!

I'm more confused over how this isn't more of an obvious concern for...everyone?

"Darlin' you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that you are mine
I'll be here 'til the end of time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?"

Seems rather apt for this ks (unfortunately).

A Clash reference is always appreciated! (At least, that's how I know that song!)

I should note that since the one is already at around $150K , it is already doing well.

Clearly the scale of the mins didn't hurt - but might the material revelation?

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
We've been monitoring this Kickstarter from the beginning. As we've said before, we are all gamers here and we keep on playing and enjoying a wide variety of miniature games. We know first hand how much "real plastic" costs and having looked at this carefully it does leave a lot of question marks.
Nonetheless we wish them success and that they'll deliver what they promised since they have been now fully funded.

 basement.dweller wrote:
In worst case scenarious being vague is what you do when you don't want to be caught lying. It's PR clean and simple.

No offense but that's not PR. Where we stand it's probably considered as cheating. Again, no offense intended.

Yia sas pedia! Xerome pou eparxoun kai ellines pou kanoun figoures!

I also completely agree - leaving out information that might be bad is deception. That is unfortunately the reality of PR whether it's considered right or wrong.

[quote=Alpharius 597844 6913461 8911c4cf35a41b3bd27a82641d991d3b.jpg

I'm more confused over how this isn't more of an obvious concern for...everyone?

As for Marrow and Journey I will quote myself here as I was not complaining about Marrow - I think they handled this excellently and that is the reason I pledged with them. I was adressing the notion that larger scale stuff in PVC don't suffer the same issues as small scale which is simply not true. It just doesn't suffer as much. If you look at the closeups there are so much details missing which is down to the material choice and it's limitations.

 basement.dweller wrote:
I highly disagree that material choice in their scale does not matter. Of course it matters. If it's a form of PVC it's more likely going to suck than not compared to other materials - and this based on track record. There is a game called "Journey" that is made in a similar scale and they did both resin copies for collectors and a pvc lineup of the same figures. For me the PVC counterparts look awful in comparison.

Pictures comparison pvc/resin and link spoilered

Spoiler:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588487845/journey-wrath-of-demons

At least if you like to paint and collect like I do more so than game. I don't think PVC is necessarily bad - it's bad for people like me. Most people would also agree that there is a clear quality loss compared to other more reliable materials for fidelity purposes. Some manufacturers even willingly admit this (mostly because there is no way to spin the results).

 Alpharius wrote:
A Clash reference is always appreciated! (At least, that's how I know that song!)

I should note that since the one is already at around $150K , it is already doing well.

Clearly the scale of the mins didn't hurt - but might the material revelation?

I'm not entirely convinced the scale of the minis is 'known' still. Remember it passed 50k before the scale pic went up and now it's on page 3 or 4 of the updates and a tiny pic and if you jump in and read back through the comments you still see a lot more 'matches with Dust', 'goes with Deadzone scenery* etc. than 'Nothing in this kickstarter is smaller than 40mm and will not match anything you likely own'. The csale all the way at the bottom in the FAQ still says "35mm to the eyes" which is wrong 'and' still has the '6.8ft is 40mm' typo both of which make them seem smaller than they are.

I can easily see a number of pledgers being mistaken and then being quite annoyed when their stuff finally turns up.

Artemis Black wrote:
...quite annoyed when their stuff finally turns up.

Isn't that every wargaming kickstarter ever?

I can't believe nobody has been talking about the rules yet. Personally i am glad i waited for the rules to come out before backing the game. They are clearly written by someone who has no experience in game design, and as of now they are "Book Keeping: The Game".

Right now they kept line of sight very vague, sounds like TLOS to me: "When a unit shoots it must select an enemy unit inside their line of vision. The line of vision is calculated from the attacker to the miniatures of the objective unit. Every single miniature capable to see at least one enemy miniature can shoot. Partially visible miniatures: Sometimes, some of the miniatures of the defender will be partially covered, and others will not be. In this case, the hits that can only hit miniatures under cover will be assigned in this group and the hits that can hit all will be assigned normally, distributed equally between all the assignable miniatures."

In general there are a bunch of things that are just kind of weird, here is something they call reference miniature: "To determine the facing of the unit during the game, a reference miniature will be used, whose facing will represent that of the whole unit. This way when we need to determine if a unit is flanked by the fire of an enemy unit we will use the position and facing of that miniature for the whole unit. In the units in which there is a commander we will use the commander as the reference miniature. In the cases where there are no commanders, the reference miniature will be the closest miniature to the source of the fire."

Attached you will find the rules. They are poorly translated, but that's what you get. In general this kickstarter seems like its purely driven by the high quality of art and models. If people had seen the rules from the beginning i am sure they would be way less funded.

I talked about the rules, by saying there's nothing to talk about

It's a rules pamphlet that would probably fit on 3 or 4 pages of A4 in proper type.

Artemis Black wrote:
I talked about the rules, by saying there's nothing to talk about
It's a rules pamphlet that would probably fit on 3 or 4 pages of A4 in proper type.

Yea it's really just a very basic layout of common wargaming concepts without any concrete structure behind it. Seeing how they only have one amateur guy on the team writing the rules, and he has no experience in rules writing, i have little faith in this... Here is an interview thing that they did where they talk a little more about the game, basically the guy who writes the rules is a big league of legends player and he wants to incorporate video game elements into the game as much as possible. I... just... ugh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5CVBPKp5gA

I'm confused. Who is shieldwolf miniatures and what do they have to do with this game? I thought this was Scale?

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm confused. Who is shieldwolf miniatures and what do they have to do with this game? I thought this was Scale?

Shieldwolf miniatures are a seperate company and have recently launched a plastic orc warband box so know a fair bit about funding and producing plastic sprues. They were giving their own opinion on this ks.

personally I pretty much feel theres no way this ks will be plastic sprues but will definitely be pvc or some derivative. They would simply need a lot more cash.

Good point on the scale here - it is...odd, and perhaps not as clear as it should be.

That one reference/comparison pic was a little on the small side too...


From the FAQ:


On scale:

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

Material:

Inicially, we want to produce in injected plastic but some items (vehicles for example) can be casted in PU resin.
In fact, the material is not closed and it will depend on the campaign result.

I think they should just tell us what the material is NOW, because they're 'fully funded'.

And they should tell us what level of funding will be necessary to get them all in 'hard plastic' - as I'd guess that's the goal we're marching towards?

Another thing that is pretty funny is the mentions that Dakka Dakka gets, and how people 'hate' and/or 'loathe' "Dakka".

As if "Dakka" is some sort of Hive Mind, or that there's some sort of majority or consensus here!

Ironically enough, the Kickstarter comments sections are the more likely place for that type of unwelcoming thing...

 Alpharius wrote:

I think they should just tell us what the material is NOW, because they're 'fully funded'.

In general it feels like they themselves did not figure all of these things out, which is why we are getting no concrete information and half-baked rules...