Fallen Frontiers Kickstarter

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**plastictrees**

I'm out.
The frantic shortening and adding of stretch goals is off putting to me.
Hope it does well and I'll definitely be taking a look at retail.

**Artemis Black**

I think that could be a mistake, give it another week and there'll be a stretch goal of half a dozen new HIPS sprues every 25p, all funded by a mystery billionaire.

(For the record, I'm not too proud to admit that if there 'is' a mystery billionaire making all these minis then I will actually buy a bunch *grin* Of course I will also expect them to be delivered by the aforementioned airborne porcine delivery system)

Aww, i just noticed that had your pledge been £13 more you leaving would have unfunded their last freebie at the same time. I have popcorn here, cause more apoplexy next time you leave a kickstarter dammit!

**Piston Honda**

Alpharius wrote:I want this one to do well and I want to get a lot of really nice looking HIPs miniatures from this campaign.

But I keep feeling like I'm going to have to d6 it at the end to see if I'm staying in!

I want it to do well because the more competition the better. Sure some companies will die. But the best will survive.

It's just this company has been a bit lacking and delayed with information. I'm not sure if their information is reactionary to act as a pacifier which it sure seems. Or if this is quite possibly the worst ever language barrier in KS history.

I do hope they deliver everything they promise to backers, even if it takes longer than Relic Knights. Seeing backers get ripped off is a painful thing to see. The events with Torn Armour via Defiance games was disgusting.

Artemis Black wrote:
Piston Honda wrote:
So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.

That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.

I also can't see where it's gone, there's not 90k worth of sculpting and art in this kickstarter, never mind an amount so large it makes 90k 'nothing'.

Assuming if true, they may have held back investing too much money in the event of a failed kickstarter.

**Artemis Black**

Piston Honda wrote:
Artemis Black wrote:
Piston Honda wrote:
So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.

That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.

I also can't see where it's gone, there's not 90k worth of sculpting and art in this kickstarter, never mind an amount so large it makes 90k 'nothing'.

Assuming if true, they may have held back investing too much money in the event of a failed kickstarter.

Well if true, it means it's already spent. that's what the quote says. As there's not even 90k worth of stuff on show, never mind the much larger amount clearly implied, then the only way I can see it being remotely true is if they include 2 years of wages for someone to oversee the project or something?

Honestly if someone working for me spent hundreds of thousands of pounds over 2 years and handed me this I'd want to see receipts and damn fast.

**Piston Honda**

Possibly more is done than they are showing, which would make sense but half the crap they said after the fact has not.

Or he is referring to all the money invested in other aspects of his business. After all, the language barrier thing...

back in my wood shop to eat more dust.

**edlowe**

I've definitely still got my 'more shinys' goggle's on for now, however the small voice in my head that made me pull out of the rogue trooper ks is getting louder.

Guess with 2 weeks to go I can make up my mind then and enjoy the ride.

**insaniak**

Nope, I'm calling shenanigans.

In a little over 9 months, they're going to have their miniatures resculpted for HIPS, finish writing their rules, and produce (just for the core boxed set) a minimum of 4 sprues of models, printed terrain, cards, counters, box and rulebook, and custom dice... and all for £90,000 despite only just settling on a material for their miniatures, which in all likelihood means that they don't actually have any of this production scheduled with anyone yet, at a time when we know that the plastics producers capable of decent work are all running with a severe backlog of work?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

**Artemis Black**

insaniak wrote:
Nope, I'm calling shenanigans.

In a little over 9 months, they're going to have their miniatures resculpted for HIPS, finish writing their rules, and produce (just for the core boxed set) a minimum of 4 sprues of models, printed terrain, cards, counters, box and rulebook, and custom dice... and all for £90,000 despite only just settling on a material for their miniatures, which in all likelihood means that they don't actually have any of this production scheduled with anyone yet, at a time when we know that the plastics producers capable of decent work are all running with a severe backlog of work?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

All of the boosters and vehicles are unlocked already. And they're all in HIPS. So that's at least 3 times as much as you've listed needs to be done

More as each new thing gets unlocked, which since they shortened the stretch goals and have started slotting in goals in between, is going to be quite a lot.

**Mymearan**

Have they said anything about talking to a HIPS manufacturer or anything that would indicate that they actually know what they are talking about when they are saying "we're doing HIPS"? Or is it just wishful thinking on their part at this point?

**edlowe**

Mymearan wrote:
Have they said anything about talking to a HIPS manufacturer or anything that would indicate that they actually know what they are talking about when they are saying "we're doing HIPS"? Or is it just wishful thinking on their part at this point?

They've been quoted in an email, that the information about a manufacturer has to stay internal to the company. Its not been 100% clear about HIPS until recently, even then its worded in a way thats a little odd, but that could be down to the language barrier, although their english translator posts every so often.

**Alpharius**

I've just about given up on the comments section for this one.

When "+1" is viewed as a viable comment...

And when the creators themselves are barely present, I'm not sure what the point is?

**edlowe**

Alpharius wrote:
I've just about given up on the comments section for this one.

When "+1" is viewed as a viable comment...

And when the creators themselves are barely present, I'm not sure what the point is?

I've been thinking about the ks this morning,

My main issue atm is the mystery surrounding how their going to fund all the kits. I'd rather they were honest up front and say 'the funding so far covers x number of plastic kits we need x to make the next set' or 'we have x in private funding to cover everything we've shown so far'

Not revealing your manufacturer or prior funding makes them seem very dodgy. I've never heard of a kickstarter not being upfront with this information when asked unless they had something to hide or just didn't know the costs or what was involved.

The way they keep avoiding the questions is getting very annoying, im pretty certain im pulling out now, in fact I'll do it now :(

Theres Too much faith, too little substance involved for me to feel comfortable.

**Alpharius**

I think the presence of creators (usually quite active in the comments section) is what leads to the emergence of Super-Supporters who tend to drown out any voices other than those of rabid devotion.

The Super-Supporters must feel that their Special Snowflakeness will be recognized and rewarded, when in fact much of what they do is quite detrimental to a successful campaign and building a good community around the project...

**cincydooley**

Unless one can don the role of "Super-Antagonist". I may have done that on a project or two.......

**Alpharius**

There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".

I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.

Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!

A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.

**cincydooley**

Alpharius wrote:
There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".

I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.

Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!

A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.

Pretty much summarizes why it's only on my watch list so far.

**basement.dweller**

AlexHolker wrote:
The Raptor seems to suffer from the same design flaw as the Raging Heroes bikes, in that the low angle of the forks for the front wheel are not conductive to actually steering the vehicle. Unless you rely entirely on differential steering like a tank does, you need to be able to angle at least some of the wheels to steer.

In the future all roads are straight and all vehicles run on eco-friendly pullback motors

While it reminds me of Kaneda's bike, I think you are right (differential steering). It would be rough to steer a broad front wheel like that when the tread/profile
is flat as it would be akin to raising the bike when turning. While I like the general designs and art direction I feel the vehicles are toylike in their depiction.
That may however change/improve when they are actually modeled.

It should be more like this:

Spoiler:

Or this, which actually works despite the very low angle fork:

Spoiler:

**Artemis Black**

Alpharius wrote:
There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".

I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.

Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!

A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.

Not being able to measure their own miniatures in the first place doesn't exactly warrant much 'trust' or 'faith' and still showing the bloody 75mm minis on the front page also doesn't, one is even the next stretch goal. People think they are getting 'that' mini.

By all accounts their paint is good, and the quality of their 75mm resin minis is good. But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.

**edlowe**

While I may have dropped my pledge im still interested in this ks and where Scale take it.

from the comments, seems interesting

Creator SCALE GAMES 20 minutes ago
Tadgie: The workload is now very large for our team. We always try to respond to all questions in the minimum time possible. We take very seriously any questions and we like to give a precise answer. Since we are a small company and we have to divide the work also have to divide up the hours to answer all the questions that come to us. My name is Jose Luis and I am responsible for social networks as well as to help Elias (our project manager) with some details of game rules and scenarios. Unfortunately for me, but I have some information on the materials to work, I do not know the exact details of the manufacture. in any case I can inform you that sooner than later we will send a statement reporting on these issues of great concern to our community

**Artemis Black**

Yup, popcorn at the ready for the next round of comments.

Will it be sensible and straightforward answers? Will it include a manufacturing partner and news of how they plan on affording what is hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of plastic manufacturing with less than 80k? Will it be something to explain why after 2 years of production, the rules of their game can be written on the back of a beermat? WIll they have used some of the secret millionaires money to have finally bought a ruler?

Or will it be some vague nonsense in slightly mangled English? Perhaps new stretch goals will be unlocked each day of the week that ends in y? Perhaps all future minis will be cast in solid gold and hand delivered by strippers?

I await the next exciting episode of 'Things people say for Money'

**Necros**

Artemis Black wrote:
Perhaps all future minis will be cast in solid gold and hand delivered by strippers?

I'll buy that for a dollar!

**basement.dweller**

Artemis Black wrote:
But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.

Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.

Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.

Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...

**Artemis Black**

basement.dweller wrote:
Artemis Black wrote:
But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.

Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.

Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.

Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...

That is the issue at hand, and why I stuck my nose in in the first place. The larger the Kickstarter that fails to deliver the more people get burned by yet another Kickstarter and don't throw in for the next one, which might be mine. Hell, even as a consumer they might not throw in for the next one I'm backing and cost me a free stretch goal or even funding at all for something I wanted to own.

So these guys have ow made huge promises, which it seems impossible to deliver without massive outside funding or a new source of plastics manufacturing that none of us in the industry have even heard of. What happens next is something I'm now invested in as both a fellow manufacturer and a consumer.

**edlowe**

Artemis Black wrote:
basement.dweller wrote:
Artemis Black wrote:
But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.

Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.

Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.

Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...

That is the issue at hand, and why I stuck my nose in in the first place. The larger the Kickstarter that fails to deliver the more people get burned by yet another Kickstarter and don't throw in for the next one, which might be mine. Hell, even as a consumer they might not throw in for the next one I'm backing and cost me a free stretch goal or even funding at all for something I wanted to own.

So these guys have ow made huge promises, which it seems impossible to deliver without massive outside funding or a new source of plastics manufacturing that none of us in the industry have even heard of. What happens next is something I'm now invested in as both a fellow manufacturer and a consumer.

When industry experts are saying it's improbable that they can fullfill this ks, it really sets off alarms.

On the plus side I've been reminded to put in another order with hasselfree

plus I can save some cash for the next ks. Bad ks don't put me of backing others I've been lucky that I've only backed one I regret and have dodged the bullet twice by pulling out early.

**Janthkin**

Enough with the off-topic digression. If you're not discussing the kickstarter, you shouldn't be discussing it in this thread at all.

**Alpharius**

I think that most (all?) in this thread want this KS Campaign to deliver high quality HIPs miniatures for a living, breathing 'continuing past the campaign' game system.

There are just some misgiving here over some of the goals, and how SG is going to reach them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread is quite good - people are allowed to have whatever opinion they want, and as long as they stay within the rules of this site while expressing them, everything is just fine.

Positive, negative, constructive, pom pom waving, etc. - whatever!

**edlowe**

Creator SCALE GAMES 19 minutes ago
Hi everyone!

From the direction of Scale Games we want to officially clarify, due to the continued insistence of some of our backers the following issues:

1: Scale: The scale of our models has been explained on our Update # 4 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/986826251/fallen-frontiers/posts/862118). It was chosen for its simplicity for both painting and playing.

Also as we have already demonstrated our models are fully compatible with many of the scenographies, bases and games currently on the market.

2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first.

After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds).

Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.

The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations.

3: suppliers: We have different options, both Asian and European. We do not even discard the option of self-production. They all have enough quality and productivity that our project requires.

This does not mean that there are no risks, as in the processes of production, experience tells us that it is very difficult to concrete deadlines and contingencies.

We also want to clarify that we will NOT reveal any of our suppliers in public for not being dismissed any option.

4: Trust: We are a young company, but with some years of experience producing miniatures and special orders for major firms. are entrepreneurs and we really want to get this great project forward and with your help we can.

We have great professionals in the various departments of both design, painting, modeling, art, communication, production and finance. Each in its work is bringing the best of himself to reach a satisfactory conclusion. We are also backed by one of the best companies in miniatures that currently exists as it is Scale75, giving us both the human as well as financial support.

This crowdfunding campaign is intended to be a support tool to begin production of a game that in our opinion, breaks the conventional aspects both from the point of view of artistic design and gaming system.

We understand Crowdfunding as a financing tool based on the work of those that present a project and the trust placed in us by our backers. We do not understand the Crowdfunding as a “preorder tool” and we will not compromise the quality of the project for money. If we get enough support to begin production immediately through this campaign, we will do so, otherwise we will continue working to bring this project full of enthusiasm for another path because we know we are not alone and that most of you want to see this dream fulfilled as much as we do.

We have much work ahead and we know it. We are willing to do it because we trust in the product and mainly for our backers.

We have proven expertise doing things right, We will continue the good work with your trust and your support.

We hope these words finally dispel any doubts.

However our “Comunity Managers” will be at your disposal to answer any further questions on our social networks and media.

**Artemis Black**

Ok, does anyone have any idea what

"2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first.

After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds).

Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.

The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations."

actually means?

Cos it looks to be another vague answer that allows a 'get out of HIPS free' card at the end. Sometime down the line just declare HIPS to not be good enough and use the, obviously coincidentally much cheaper, other options like PVC.

(Oh and will someone who's pledged 'please' ask them to change their scale update to actually be true i.e. 5'8" not 6.8ft and 40mm+ minis are not '35mm to the eyes'.) I really don't wanna have to back the KS to say something, I tried via FB but was ignored)

**edlowe**

Doesn't really give me enough knowledge to jump back in. Its Hips unless they decide its not?

**Piston Honda**

from the comments by scale games

"Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.
The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations."

Translation:

We say we are going to use HIPs (to stop the questioning and gain more interest) but we are really not sure at this point. We state it is in regards to quality but it really means what our fiances are.