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 edlowe wrote:


So they need 700 backers for resin, 2000 for HIPS, very exact but not funding related? I would have thought they would have gone with some £ targets?

I don't think they're being exact at all - just saying that a low number of backers would mean not having to make many figures, whilst if they had to make more then it would possibly be feasible to switch to plastic, due to a lower cost per unit (and counting all the extra funds). Nothing that wasn't already known. The material question would be carefully weighted not just by money raised, but also their commitments in terms of how many figures they'll need to make for the money.

The only thing I'd take away from that update is that they've pretty much confirmed that backers are going to have to pledge without knowing what material their product will end up in, even right up until the end of the campaign.

From KS comments wrote:@Scale Games:
Thank you. That would have been a better statement for update 26. I will do what I can to try to talk some of the backers to cone back. So the word is, Resin or HIPS, and NO PVC.

Did I miss where Scale ruled out PVC? Musing about the volume of scale required to make models in two different materials isn't a guarantee they won't use a third. KS 'read what you want into the official updates, then parrot back to other backers as fact' about to go into full effect, perhaps.

So despite saying 15 completely different things what they really meant was "High quality resin or HIPS depending on funding".

30,000+ high quality resin figures plus vehicles, plus the rest of the game stuff.

Mmm hmm.

 Riquende wrote:

 edlowe wrote:


So they need 700 backers for resin, 2000 for HIPS, very exact but not funding related? I would have thought they would have gone with some £ targets?

I don't think they're being exact at all - just saying that a low number of backers would mean not having to make many figures, whilst if they had to make more then it would possibly be feasible to switch to plastic, due to a lower cost per unit (and counting all the extra funds). Nothing that wasn't already known. The material question would be carefully weighted not just by money raised, but also their commitments in terms of how many figures they'll need to make for the money.

The only thing I'd take away from that update is that they've pretty much confirmed that backers are going to have to pledge without knowing what material their product will end up in, even right up until the end of the campaign.

From KS comments wrote:@Scale Games:
Thank you. That would have been a better statement for update 26. I will do what I can to try to talk some of the backers to cone back. So the word is, Resin or HIPS, and NO PVC.

Did I miss where Scale ruled out PVC?

They presented two choices. X number of backers=resin, y number if backers= HIPS. I'll see if I can get them to guarantee their word.

 scadianforlife wrote:
They presented two choices. X number of backers=resin, y number if backers= HIPS. I'll see if I can get them to guarantee their word.

I don't think they did present two choices at all.

The quote:

"Resin production is more expensive than Hips if you forget about tooling if this ends with 700 backers or so its perfectly possible to make resin production. If we say it will be resin but ends with 2000 backers HIPS is a much cheaper option. "

So what we have there is a statement that it's more expensive, per model, to make a resin figure than a plastic one (which we all know or can guess, as resin is traditionally used by boutique manufactuers for low volume runs). I think what they've said is that they reckon they can cover the minis they'd have to make in resin for about 700 backers, I can't dispute that claim as they're a resin manufacturer and will know their own costs. However, that's still open to speculation.

Then they state that if they had to make ~3 times the amount of models, it would be cheaper to do it in plastic. That's all they say. "It would be cheaper". Not "we will do it".

Incidentally, when we say cheaper here we just mean 'per model' it would cost them less to make. It doesn't necessarily make it more affordable if it involves large upfront costs for making the molds.

So they have said, paraphrasing "For a small number of figures, resin would be better. For a lot more, plastic would be more suitable, probably". There's no committment there to anything.

Ok, let's go through what they've said about the material, in order, before today, should be interesting I think...

the material will behigh quality plastic injection molding. but we do not decline using resin or metal according to the results of the KS

Any further details about materials will depend on our backers collaboration

injection plastic is our first choice , and we will NOT cast any miniature on restic

We are aware that the material is a very important factor for all of you. We are working on getting the best material without making the product more expensive and for this we need a minimum flow of production we can not yet specify (the negotiations change every day and for the better).

We want to be able to produce the vehicles in plastic but it will depend of the campaign result.

We don't know how many pieces would one normal trooper yet, because it will depend of the material but I think it can be around 4 pieces.

I want to be clear that our target is injected plastic material, but the most important thing is the quality. This is the reason why we don´t want to close other options but repeat...the target is injected plastic.

The material will be high quality plastic, perfect for painting. As we said this is the main reason why the goal is that high so please dont worry about that.

We consider GW plastic as high quality.

Our target is to produce in high quality injected plastic, but the most important thing is the quality.

Hi folks. We can make production in ABS or PVC, this is why there is no a final answer. ABS is a good material but its so hard that it's very difficult to extract some geometries from the moulds. PVC is softer and its also a good choice but there are many many variants that its difficult to say one.

But as we said ABS its an option and it doesnt depends on money. If ABS its the best quality for our miniatures ABS it will be.

Theres a huge diference between types of PVC

Hi all. The material will be HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene).

2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first. After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds). Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier. The idea is everything to be made ​​of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations.

This is why I am trying to get their written/typed guarantee. Is that ok? Or are yall going to try to argue the word "guarantee?"

 scadianforlife wrote:
This is why I am trying to get their written/typed guarantee. Is that ok? Or are yall going to try to argue the word "guarantee?"

They've just done better than that for ya

Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards

Some £ figures!

Creator SCALE GAMES 16 minutes ago

Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards

Edit - Ninja'd!

 Artemis Black wrote:

It must now be summer, because there are flip flops everywhere in that post.

Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards

Still waiting on written guarantee.

My badgering paid off! Not sure if it's a good answer, but I feel like I'm wading through the tides of rabid fans.

PVC is NOT an option for us.

Here ya go

Well, if I were a backer, that would encourage me greatly. That is, IF it stays low enough to be in the resin category. They have experience doing that... Honestly, if that was their goal they should've stated as much, and maybe limited rewards to volume they could handle.

I still think HIPS is 100% going to be a disaster if they try that route, but resin they've done, so it's a much safer bet.

I'm also amused by the "if you forget tooling costs" part in their HIPS statement. I'm not an industry insider like some in this thread, but isn't the tooling cost MOST of the cost for HIPS? Isn't that statement more or less "If you ignore the cost of buying and maintaining a car, the price of gas per trip is cheaper than taking a bus"? That just seems like an odd thing to hand-wave away.

I was interested in this when I first saw the project, but the actions of the creator thus far make it highly unlikely I'll have enough trust in them to give them any money.

Well look at that, only took two weeks.

So current funding is for all 30 thousand plus minis in high quality standard resin and if they make 140k then all 80 off unique minis will be in HIPS

That should be fun to watch.

Now if you can just get them to stop pretending their mins are 35mm and change the Scale FAQ to be true I can go away for 2 weeks and come back and see what happened

(I don't care about the rules pamphlet, at least they can't pretend it's really 250 pages thick, so if people wanna say they're the greatest rules ever then it's on them not Scale75)

 Artemis Black wrote:
Well look at that, only took two weeks.

So current funding is for all 30 thousand plus minis in high quality standard resin and if they make 140k then all 80 off unique minis will be in HIPS

That should be fun to watch.

Now if you can just get them to stop pretending their mins are 35mm and change the Scale FAQ to be true I can go away for 2 weeks and come back and see what happened

(I don't care about the rules pamphlet, at least they can't pretend it's really 250 pages thick, so if people wanna say they're the greatest rules ever then it's on them not Scale75)

Don't even get me started on the rules.
I am trying to get them to do are ised copy via Volomir.

Having looked at it more, in resin at this model scale, the cost per model seems crazy low... not sure what to think.

 scadianforlife wrote:

PVC is NOT an option for us.

Here ya go

Yeah, it'll be useful to keep that quote to keep firing back at them in a year's time.

Pretty certain they'd previously ruled out PVC, only to talk about it again 'as an option' in a later update.

HIPs or 'resin' - and NOT PVC - would quell a lot of fears/anxiety/etc.

Blame McVey, Soda Ninja and Mantic if you want, but the 'threat' of PVC isn't going to go over well anymore.

I don't know how DRAKERYS has managed to avoid this problem too, but looking at their campaign, they're in a serious stall as well.

For me, it is unbelievable how the Super Supporters can't see how obvious the problem is with this campaign, and how simple it would have been to NOT have gone through this, and how NOT answering the "Material Question" is at the root of all the problems here!

Now that they've kinda/sorta answered it - great!

But, it might be too late, and this one ends up pulling a full on THON and backslides right back past its funding target.

Now, IF they CLEARLY answer the "Material Question" this probably won't happen.

They can do 'real resin' for 700+/- backers, probably.

Warzone Resurrection sort of did this for 962 backers - kind of successfully.

Hang on, guys. I am trying to make them gurantee it.

Now, I will catch some flak for asserting a guarantee. Come on Alpharius, join in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

We gurantee that we will not use PVC for our miniatures.

Good to go

 RiTides wrote:
Having looked at it more, in resin at this model scale, the cost per model seems crazy low... not sure what to think.

If it ended today at current levels of peldging and funding they'd have less than 75k after VAT, kickstarter fees, amazon fees etc

They'll have to make moulds for 80 odd unique 40-50mm multipart figures. Then hand cast over 30 'thousand' full figures. Continually making new moulds as they died (and they'll die a 'lot' before you get that many figures)

They also have to make the game mates, scenery, vehicles, dice, game box, remove money for things like the paint sets and dvd etc.

Ask any resin caster ya know how long that will take and how much it'll cost. We work with resin a 'lot', hence the repeated 'good luck with that' comment.

Sounds good to me!

I think the worst thing that could happen now is the same thing that seems to happen to almost every miniature wargame Kickstater - it will deliver well past its projected ship date.

EDIT:

Er, unless Artemis is right, of course!

What ballpark figures we talking for resin then Artemis? I'm not excusing these guys but they have claimed to have external funding, be it from the Scale 75 parent company or Bruce Wayne.

Zond wrote:
What ballpark figures we talking for resin then Artemis? I'm not excusing these guys but they have claimed to have external funding, be it from the Scale 75 parent company or Bruce Wayne.

Hmm, the main problem with guessing the ballpark figures is that a big part of the cost is labour. If they do it all in house and don't pay themselves then it's totally doable. It'll take a long ass time to be working for free though

For tens of thousands of figures you don't tend to choose high quality resin. For educational purposes if you went to a good resin company and asked them to do this it would cost 'significantly' more than 90k, never mind the 75k they'd actually get. So the only way to bring it back under cost is to do it in house and not pay yourself as much as you would someone else, or maybe even anything at all. It's too hard to estimate exactly how much resin each of those minis would need, how many parts they'd need to be in and how long each mould would last..

Guarantee not PVC. Funding drops another £500. I guess there were a couple of backers who were big fans of restic, wondering what all the fuss was about...

Now I think the problem is if you can actually trust what they say. The going back and forth on the material and the original misleading information on the scale puts me off. At best they really have no plan going forward.

Although Drakerys is using PVC, they are honest about it. You know what you are getting into and its up to you to decide if you want to take that risk or not (or if you even see it as a risk).

+1

I hate to not add anything constructive to this post, but I'd like to say that this was the most fun to read since Mandlebaumania.

I think NOW that they've FINALLY committed to materials and funding levels, everything *should* be OK moving forward.

Of course, there's always the chance that this was too little, too late, and confusion still reigns and this project could backslide.

It is sad that the Special Snowflake Super Supporter Squad (S.S.S.S.S.) can't see the forest for the trees - it wasn't the 'haterz' that caused the problems here, it was the startlingly obvious lack of critical information that was the main issue.

And no matter how much McDonald's Junior wanted it to be so, sadly miniatures cannot be manufactured out of 'FAITH' and 'TRUST'.

It will almost definitely be 'real' resin and not HIPs, and I still think that if Prodos can do it as a 'start up' for Warzone for 960+ backers, Scale Games should be able to do it here for 700, give or take.

Sure, it will be late, but it can be done...

EDIT:

Looks like previously achieved Stretch Goals have in fact been rescinded until such time as those funding levels are hit again.

Creator SCALE GAMES 18 minutes ago

Blangis: Alexander03 will join forces again once we are back to 93.500 pounds

EDIT 2:

And it just 'unfunded'.

Wow, unfunded now. Guess theres still uncertainty about the production or something else is putting off backers.

All the uncertainty up front, the confusion that followed...

Fallen Frontiers has become "Falling Frontiers".

I thought FINALLY settling the 'material issue' would have done the trick here!