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I think you'll find most of the people asking for more clarification or specificity are now quite ardent backers, myself included. However the great +1 Witch Hunt Troll debate didn't help much, but I think it was perhaps necessary. As has been said there were a fewer red flags which have mostly been addressed. I would love to see a resin figure of each faction, basic troopers probably, just to see a final line up and the overall quality.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I don't see where they lied about scale, they posted a picture of miniatures to well known scenery.

However, what they were was needlessly evasive about the scale, which is super weird and definitely was a red flag.

Honestly the scale thing was a huge overreaction, and all this name calling probably did more to hurt the discussion than help.

Not only did they lie about the scale by repeatedly claiming it was a 35mm game they are 'still' doing it after they posted the tiny photo of their stuff. Check the FAQ, it still says "35mm to the eyes" which isn't true (and it still has the 6.8ft typo which coincidentally makes them sound like actual 35mm figures). The shortest figure they've shown so far is at least 40mm tall, which is 'not' 35mm to the eyes. The rest of the figures are multiple mm taller, all the way up to that Sihlas Fenn character that gets released again at 90k who looks to basically be a 54mm figure.

Try and stick that Sihlas Fenn guy in a 40k doorway and then tell me it's a 35mm game that you can use your existing scenery for.

That's not an overreaction, I saw with my own eyes people going on about how they were great compared to other minis and how they'd match with x game and even now people keep mentioning 35mm in the KS comments page.

All the new photos are either tiny or weirdly angled, like the scenery shots taken on purpose in corners of buildings with no doorways etc. It's been done on purpose quite clearly.

And they 'still' don't own a goddamn ruler!

 Vertrucio wrote:


I foresee some good, rock solid kickstarters being brought unnecessarily low by this same kind of negativity.

I saw very little 'negativity' here or there - I saw more calls for clarity, and that can ONLY be a good thing for all parties in every Kickstarter.

Anyway, this one seems to be headed back up, and that's a good thing.

I do love 'real' resin miniatures!

 basement.dweller wrote:
If everyone gets proper PU resin minis at roughly £1,30 each (starter price) that is a steal.
I never thought I'd be worried about resin minis being too cheap, but here we are
I mean 4 starters consisting of 76 resin 40+mm for £100 Unheard of.
The siren song beckens me to just buy lots of starters... but I'd feel dirty somehow

Actually I really don't understand how that will support and help give this game a viable future.
Unless it's only meant to have this exact effect and get them grossly overfunded, as resin makes no sense to me at all.

If they continue to be resin at retail - the prices would have to rise 2x at least, but likely 3x to begin to make sense business wise.
Everyone that didn't back it will be pissed about the price hike and everyone that bought in, will already have what they want or be pissed about the price hike.

Could someone maybe ask what retail would possibly look like if this "stays" resin?

Some price speculation/comparison

Spoiler:

Booster prices make more sense in that regard but are still heavily discounted for resin pieces.

Relatively speaking - half scale of 75mm would mean 1/4 of the material so if it's a similar quality and going by their and other brands' pricing - characters should be at least £10 each in resin. Smaller Warzone models are from £9 each and grunts in packs of 5 come out at £15. A starter of Warzone is £35 for 13 miniatures = £2,7each at their cheapest.

Scale 75 has never skimped on quality and nor on their pricing so I doubt future resin from Scale75 is going to be that cheap.

The thing is, the resin casting shown is going to be their own (or some local guy). Whereas in their last kickstarter they went to China for mass resin casting.

Have they said anywhere that if this KS funds in the resin range they will be doing it in house? Because that's what my earlier 'good luck with that' comments were about. this mini alone is one of the more simple ones and it has 3 parts, the body and legs couldn't be multimoulded, maybe the arm part could. Multiply that by 80 'and' then cast each mould you end up with 300 odd times (averaged out). That's not a tiny studio's in house resin production type job, it'd take forever and cost a fortune.

If their resin plan is to send it to China what's the point in showing us an in house resin casting of a cut up 3d print? It isn't what you're going to get any more than that 75mm commissar chick they are 'still' using as advertissing is what anyone is going to get.

(Seriously, 30 updates and they can't remove the 75mm minis from their advertising? Or change the FAQ which is basically all wrong? Pfft)

 Krinsath wrote:
Is it "fair" that Scale has to take some flak because of these other failures in the KS market?

Of course it is: when you promise people over a hundred thousand dollars worth of product in exchange for a decent sized loan, the scrutiny they give your business trying to figure out whether you can fulfill this promise is well deserved. The problem is only that CMON didn't get enough flak during their campaigns to prevent them wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars on product which is not up to scratch.

I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...

Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.

Is everyone in just for the swanky models? What does everyone think of the rules? The resource gathering seems like it will be interesting.

 Azazelx wrote:
I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...

Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.

This one won't be HIPs though.

It will be 'high quality real resin', not PVC.

I think they'll do just fine there.

It will probably be really late, but, so be it.

I'll risk that, and get some nice high quality big miniatures now, at a significantly reduced cost!

koffietheekan wrote:
These discussions about materials and pricing, harms this project.

Lets talk about material choice when Relic Knight KS was active? There was no discussion about material during their campaign, they only had art and their master collecter models to promote the campaign, how misleading was that? Does Scale Games pay the price for their mistakes? After 2 months of counting money they came with an apdate. We gonna look for a factory that can produce this mass with shity stuff. But this is going offtopic now.... My humble apologies.

Have faith in Scale Games these guys listen to backers (whats good for you, is good for them), unlike some companies.

The reason people are giving SG a hard time is because of Relic Knights not having those questions asked. Relic knights was part of the big "kickstarter boom" for miniature games where most backers were not as knowledgeable about the process, or what questions to ask. Relic Knights, Sedition Wars, and the Mantic kickstarters were all lessons learned the hard way. Backers are more well-informed, and most kickstarters will start having these questions asked. Project creators will need to have answers ready, or they may receive a small backlash from backers who were burned from other projects.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...

Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.

This one won't be HIPs though.

It will be 'high quality real resin', not PVC.

I think they'll do just fine there.

It will probably be really late, but, so be it.

I'll risk that, and get some nice high quality big miniatures now, at a significantly reduced cost!

I havea genuine question, as I really have no idea about the answer.

What I've read about Scale75's quality has been good, even outside of the KS crazies. However their last kickstarter outsourced the casting to China. Is that a change? I.e. the 'quality that people are praising may be from their standard caster in Europe or even in-house while nobody has yet seen the quality of the Chinese guys stuff.

One would assume that because of the sheer scale that they will outsource the resin casting for this lot to China too but they haven't said one way or another. If they are planning on outsourcing to China then shownig a resin cast from someone else is back to the whole bait and switch thing. If they are doing it all in house then fair play to them. That is not a kickstarter I'd be happy fulfilling

Can you ask them directly if they plan on casting this kickstarter in house if i's resin? Or whether they are outsourcing to China like the last lot?

Again, Prodos Games does not outsource their resin casting for a similarly sized project with a similar price-per-model. The models are smaller, but resin casting is actually something that can be done in-house. In fact, I think it's much more likely that that is their plan.

The main reason to outsource to China is usually to use some other larger manufacturing scale process. Traditional resin casting can't be scaled up as easily, and if they're going that route (as all indications point to) then I do not think they will even be able to outsource it to China if they wanted to, and that it makes sense that they'll produce it themselves, just as Prodos Games is doing.

That has other drawbacks, but it's something I'd feel much more comfortable backing than if they were planning to outsource and try a new process for the first time for their company.

You'd think that the labour intensive resin casting would benefit the most from production in china given the wage disparity. Why can't it be scaled up as easily? Rather than running one mould at a time, couldn't, you make 5 new moulds at a time and run them concurrently using that lovely cheap labour?

I've asked the question posed by Artemis Black directly as they've responded to me before. Hopefully it clears everything up. Finally. Think any of us will be awarded medals by Dakka for services performed beyond the call of duty in the Fallen Frontier Clarity Wars. I'd accept a golden +1.

 RiTides wrote:
Again, Prodos Games does not outsource their resin casting for a similarly sized project with a similar price-per-model. The models are smaller, but resin casting is actually something that can be done in-house. In fact, I think it's much more likely that that is their plan.

The main reason to outsource to China is usually to use some other larger manufacturing scale process. Traditional resin casting can't be scaled up as easily, and if they're going that route (as all indications point to) then I do not think they will even be able to outsource it to China if they wanted to, and that it makes sense that they'll produce it themselves, just as Prodos Games is doing.

That has other drawbacks, but it's something I'd feel much more comfortable backing than if they were planning to outsource and try a new process for the first time for their company.

I have no idea what Prodos games set up is but a quick glance at their Kickstarter page seems to indicate that theirs was more expensive per figure. The starter sets were 12 30odd mm figures plus some bitz for £30. Additions were priced accordingly etc. If they are set up as a resin caster or they just partnered with one that's totally doable.

In fact, I've said all along that the FF kickstarte 'is' doable in resin, it's just not a good idea, btu that's SG's problem not mine

The rest you say is a little confusing though. Scale Games last kickstarter is definitely outsourced to China, and the material is just standard resin apparently. There's nothing about 75mm figures that couldn't be cast in-house if you have resin manufacturing set up. So why dd the last Kickstarter outsource but you think this one won't?

Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??

 Yonan wrote:
You'd think that the labour intensive resin casting would benefit the most from production in china given the wage disparity. Why can't it be scaled up as easily? Rather than running one mould at a time, couldn't, you make 5 new moulds at a time and run them concurrently using that lovely cheap labour?

Yes, that's exactly why I came to the conclusion that they'd outsource liek the last one. In resin casting labour costs are a huge partof the end cost.

If they are guaranteeing in-house prouction in Spain then fair enough, again, good luck to them


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Caballero Negro wrote:
Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??

Is anyone sure this project will fail, never mind so many? I'm pretty positive it'll fund just fine even with the recent dropouts, I'm a little more worried about the production part but I have no reason to believe that they simply won't produce anything. I'm also a little worried that a lot of people still in may think they are getting 35mm figures.

None of that constitues a 'fail' though, just an annoyance to various backers.

Caballero Negro wrote:
Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??

"Failure" can be a very loose term. Some might think if the project doesn't hit HIPS it's a failure. If it doesn't break the million dollar mark it's a failure. If the models turn out to be garbage it's a failure. If it doesn't get funded it's a failure. If they don't hit their projected ship date it's a failure.

There are many definitions of "failure" in regards to kickstarter.

SCALE GAMES says:
It will be of our own production we dont need to outsource resin. Next resin will be next to a ruler, dont worry.

Quick response.

I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...

Mostly just the one very vocal person.

Zond wrote:

SCALE GAMES says:
It will be of our own production we dont need to outsource resin. Next resin will be next to a ruler, dont worry.

Quick response.

Excellent. That should help considerably.

It's like pulling teeth trying to get information, that ultimately will benefit 'them' considerably, out of them We should just send you in every time apparently.

Stick the 'correct' scale and other information on the front page, stick a ruler in a shot, tell people from the start what material things are going to be in and dont change your mind 15 times, it's like Kickstarter 101.

With great art, good sculpting, and apparently an already dedicated customer base this shoulda been easy for them. Silly sods.

Glad they confirmed they're doing it in-house, I think they can manage it all a lot better that way (again like Prodos). Sorry I couldn't respond earlier, busy day here!

Caballero Negro wrote:
Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail.

I don't want this project to fail. Nor do I think it will.

But I want you to take on the risk for it.

I want you to back this product to success, and then wait for fulfillment and then post pictures and reviews of the miniatures here and then I'll decide if the product is worth getting at retail.

Please pledge higher

Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...

Mostly just the one very vocal person.

Actually I don't think anyone wishes that this should fail, including Artemis Black. He/she's in the industry and obviously knows what he/she's talking about, I appreciate that. Let the project succed by all means, maybe not overfund perhaps since it would be so unfair to other project creators that have done their math properly before stretching out their hand and asking for people's money.
Our whole gaming group is wishing that KS are done properly, this has been a laughing stock. Needless to say no-one is putting any money on this. I wish SG delivers everything people have paid for, I just hope they don't dare launch a 3rd KS before they have finished this one (AFAIK they still haven't even finished the 1st one). If they are serious enough, it should take them a couple of years at the very least!

 RiTides wrote:
Glad they confirmed they're doing it in-house...

If they hadn't, they would have probably lost even more faith (from what little remains, China isn't the best option out there). At this point since others have pointed out that compared to Prodos this is a hell of a lot of work for free, the only fear is having them using cheap quality resin to back this up. Can't see any other way they can support this, other than digging their hands in their own pockets. But if they had that kind of funding they would have gone with plastic, something they obviously can't afford.

Sad. Such a promising project with such lovely minis and so poor planning.
Scale 75 has lost a lot of any reputation it previously had but I hope in the end this works out well for everyone.

Sirio wrote:

Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...

Mostly just the one very vocal person.

Actually I don't think anyone wishes that this should fail, including Artemis Black. He/she's in the industry and obviously knows what he/she's talking about, I appreciate that. Let the project succed by all means, maybe not overfund perhaps since it would be so unfair to other project creators that have done their math properly before stretching out their hand and asking for people's money.
Our whole gaming group is wishing that KS are done properly, this has been a laughing stock. Needless to say no-one is putting any money on this. I wish SG delivers everything people have paid for, I just hope they don't dare launch a 3rd KS before they have finished this one (AFAIK they still haven't even finished the 1st one). If they are serious enough, it should take them a couple of years at the very least!

I really don't wish anything on them either way. My involvement snowballed out of a random fb group discussion and since then has mostly been me nattering in 2 forum threads and learning interesting stuff along the way.

It boils down to being as simple as this. You don't launch a kickstarter with the impression of 35mm plastic figures and two weeks later it's now mostly clear that it's 40+ mm resin ones. That's just suicide. Even with the issues it raised £90k, that's impressive, imagine what it could have raised if it wasn't run that way.

And frankly with this latest anouncement the worst thing I could wish on the company isn't failure, it's funding at £90,001. I would 'not' want to be in charge of fulfilling that.

Whoever is in charge of the actual KS seems to have ballsed it right up but to be fair I have no idea who that is or what info they were privy to, going by the comments it doesn' seem like there's a 'person' and that it's a number of people all of whom seem to have thought completely different things. There's been 3 new updates since last I had a look but yet the FAQ on the front page is 'still' wrong. I don't even know at this stage how that is possible, they're reading this damn forum and replying to it in their own comments so they have to know.

*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!

*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!

I think they heard you.

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

 scadianforlife wrote:

*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!

I think they heard you.

At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.

*grin* That's what I want them to change. It originally just said "35mm scale" and now it says that instead which is closer to reality but only the first line seems true, they do seem to follow o gauge.

6.8ft is a typo that makes them seem smaller. 1.8m is 5.8ft or 5"10" in imperial measurements world i.e. an average human. SO that needs fixing

And no mini that's 40mm tall is 35mm to the eye unless they are 25% head . SG seem to be using correct proportions so that would be around 37.5mm to the eyes for an average human. As they've only shown one human I have o idea if he's the normal or tall and all the other figures are larger. So that also needs fixing.

So average humans are 40mm in height in their game. Don't mention 35mm 'anywhere' cos it has nothing to do with anything unless they have decided to measure minis to their chins.

(FAQ also still says HIPS, when it's resin now)

Well, Sayx aint average humans

*laugh* They changed the material part of the FAQ but not the scale part.

Artemis, are you familiar with O scale? My wife's hobby is model trains. O Scale is not exact. According to wiki:

Scale 7 mm to 1 ft –
6.35 mm to 1 ft

Here's the web address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_scale
Last I checked 6.8 is between 7and 6.35, correct? I agree it's on the smaller side.
Average height of a MALE (to be precise) is 1.77 meters (5' 10") in the USA. The FEMALE of our specie clocks in at 163.2 meters (5' 8") in the USA.
My source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
I would love to see your souce though as it will come in handy in one of my calculations.
I believe SG is using an interesting scale, trying to carve out a niche for themselves. If eye level is at 35mm, then to the top of the head on a MALE mini would be roughly 38mm or 39mm, correct? Maybe they got 40mm by adding armor, caps, spikes?

I will as them how they got to their scale number.


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