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 RiTides wrote:
Why are you talking about a land raider as if it's terrain? .

It's called an "example"........ And the last time I looked the buildings weren't much better (scale wise) then their vehicles. Clearly you don't agree, so let's simply agree to disagree.....

Agreeing to disagree is totally fine- but I don't think a land raider is a reasonable example when taking about terrain (which is what insaniak was referring to).

If you want to talk about buildings, Cities of Death or something would make sense. I'd be really interested in that, actually...

 Delephont wrote:
So running this project down on the basis of scale relationship to buildings and vehicles, when arguably, one of, if not, THE most successful tabletop wargames has gotten away with it for decades is laughable at best, disturbing at worst.

They've 'gotten away with it' in that people buy the stuff anyway... but people have been complaining about GW wonky scaling and proportions for as long as GW have been producing models with winky scaling and proportions.

So it really shouldn't be too surprising when people complain about another company planning on producing models in a dodgy scale.


You're trying to create a double standard here that just doesn't exist. Scale issues are scale issues regardless of who makes the models.

This has been a most unfortunate weekend for this project, and that truly is a sad thing regardless of how self-inflicted these problems may be.

However, in the interests of identifying where the project went awry, let's not get lost in the weeds. I believe in terms of miniatures KS, Kingdom Death: Monster would be considered a "flagship" example. Let's remember that it too has a "wonky" scale of 35mm, had an initial offering of PVC or resin (yes, HIPS is now coming to much rejoicing, but the backers would have pledged for PVC), didn't have a ton of gameplay examples available during the campaign and had incredibly polarizing themes/depictions on top of all of that.

Another recent example with a less illustrious pedigree would be Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King, produced by a company with a very shaky KS history with one project horribly behind schedule (Relic Knights), another plagued by questionable designs and also horribly behind schedule (Robotech), and a handful of others that had many people openly leery and negative in the early goings of the campaign for a variety of reasons. For added fun, there were even questions about the financial health of the company to finish it's *current* obligations, never mind adding on this one.

So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark (KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?

Well, one thing they both obviously had was an established brand to fall back on. That's big, and nothing Scale can really do to emulate that at this point. However, in the particulars of the campaign, and where I feel Scale has made a total mess of things (boy this armchair is comfy), is that they presented their vision consistently and coherently. There was never doubts about where the creators wanted their respective projects to go, and they had their ideas planned out well in advance and went with the "you can come if you want" approach. That's going to garner you more faith than trying to please everyone, and backer faith is the most important currency you can have during a KS campaign because that's the only reason you're going to see more traditional currency afterwards.

 Krinsath wrote:
However, in the interests of identifying where the project went awry, let's not get lost in the weeds. I believe in terms of miniatures KS, Kingdom Death: Monster would be considered a "flagship" example. Let's remember that it too has a "wonky" scale of 35mm, had an initial offering of PVC or resin (yes, HIPS is now coming to much rejoicing, but the backers would have pledged for PVC), didn't have a ton of gameplay examples available during the campaign and had incredibly polarizing themes/depictions on top of all of that.

Those issues, primarily his evasiveness about material, are why KD is one of the few KS I've had to back out on... I also grilled him with questions about the material in particular. Personally, I am just unwilling to risk that much without even having the material identified during the campaign.

That said, now that they've clarified that the models will be resin here, I'd be tempted... but I just can't see myself using them for much else given their size. I know it might be okay for others, of course, just speaking for myself here.

 Krinsath wrote:


So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark (KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?

Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.

The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.

KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.

Yeah. I don't see KD:M as a valid comparison to this at all. Neither is Super Dungeon: Forgotten King.

One clarification, Artemis- Kingdom Death did not know what kind of plastic they would use at the start of the campaign. They funded well enough for HIPS, which is good, because the "Experiment of Death" in PVC is only okay, not stellar. But that uncertainty is why I chose not to back it, even though it turned out fantastically now (or is seeming like it will, although it is very delayed as most HIPS campaigns tend to be).

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:


So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark (KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?

Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.

The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.

KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.

Precisely. In the case of KD:M, the creator changed the game from PVC (I think?) to polystyrene midway through the process because he felt it wasn't good enough otherwise, and plainly said so. It's that dedication to quality (and frankly stunning art direction) that led so many to trust KD with so much money.

That was never a problem. They always offered both.

People want the resins to paint.

Further, Journey was ALWAYS marketed as a board game.

But in FF maybe that is the problem not offering both from the start on 2 adjacent tracks like journey. FF was marketed as a board game as well from the start of campaign.

I think the campaign is turned to the better for me who's not a boardgamer ( If i did starti playing board games then people would call it grooming) Resin and 45mm+ minis.

I am not sure if this campaign needed or deserved the flack it got, especially form peers, maybe it did maybe it didn't, I do hope nobody complains when their kickstarter gets flack because, reasons.....

Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.

Also I have to ask since the models have been shown to be the real thing, why I still read the comments about them been 75mm?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.

I'm glad it's not an issue *for you*. For many of us it is as we play many games in the 28mm (ish) range, and having kits released in that area lets us use those models in this game, these in that game, and bits from one games kits with anothers - kitbashing is a huge part of this hobby for me. If the game can stand on its own as a great game, sure scale isn't an issue as the rules will be good and therefore the models will have a use int hat game - even then though, it limits our ability to use models from other ranges in this game which is not ideal. We have no idea if the game is any good though. The reason we (I at least) pay for models and games site unseen is because, even if the game fizzles we'll still have the minis for use in other games. If these minis are too large to use in other games it becomes a complete waste of money as both the rules and models become useless.

I will be gravely sad if you continue to dismiss others concerns and just continue to assume that your way is the one true way for all people.

 Artemis Black wrote:

Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.

The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.

KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.

So, you're basically saying the same point a different way? Both successes presented their project clearly and all these other issues they shared with Scale and a few more besides went by the wayside. While not a perfect comparison, since both products had large followings already, I do believe being clear and consistent (i.e. - not misleading, in your words) in the campaign was the core reason. Scale has NOT presented it clearly, and their campaign suffers. The core reason, IMO, is that clear communication builds faith while unclear communication builds doubt. None of the other issues really matter in comparison, which was my point in the comparisons. Had either campaign appeared as muddled and indecisive as this one, I don't think their existing brands would have gotten them their levels of success. Funding, sure, but no 7+ figures.

That's not to dismiss material and scale questions as immaterial; they are a big deal as Yonan points out and Alpharius made clear. However, if you know what you're getting you will pledge or not based on your individual preferences. If you don't know what you're getting and/or can't get an answer, then it usually becomes a matter of "not" as RiTides shows.

 Yonan wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.

I'm glad it's not an issue *for you*. For many of us it is as we play many games in the 28mm (ish) range, and having kits released in that area lets us use those models in this game, these in that game, and bits from one games kits with anothers - kitbashing is a huge part of this hobby for me. If the game can stand on its own as a great game, sure scale isn't an issue as the rules will be good and therefore the models will have a use int hat game - even then though, it limits our ability to use models from other ranges in this game which is not ideal. We have no idea if the game is any good though. The reason we (I at least) pay for models and games site unseen is because, even if the game fizzles we'll still have the minis for use in other games. If these minis are too large to use in other games it becomes a complete waste of money as both the rules and models become useless.

I will be gravely sad if you continue to dismiss others concerns and just continue to assume that your way is the one true way for all people.

If that was the case we would have been sentenced to a life of GW analog proportions and marvels like Infinity would have never been realized.

I was mostly referring to terrain and compatibility with it, but secondary on the fact that may people view any new game system not as a game system but as something to use as a substitute for their 40k games, ok GW is popular, but really I would rather see manufacturers start doing their own thing and not have their main concern be "will my range be compatible with GW's"

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

If that was the case we would have been sentenced to a life of GW analog proportions and marvels like Infinity would have never been realized.

Only if all companies tried to get customers to assume all the risk of a new system by kickstarting their games.

I was mostly referring to terrain and compatibility with it, but secondary on the fact that may people view any new game system not as a game system but as something to use as a substitute for their 40k games, ok GW is popular, but really I would rather see manufacturers start doing their own thing and not have their main concern be "will my range be compatible with GW's"

It's not just 40k, it's many games. If anything, given GWs ridiculous "heroic" scale, most 28-32mm ranges work better with each other than with GW. I've seen people talking about kickstarters that ended up having bad rules, but "at least I can use the models with x game." I've used my Dreamforge minis - which has no game system yet - for 40k and Dreadball, and once Warpath is released probably in that too. Many people will have no use for these minis outside of this game due to scale concerns, so if it turns out bad it's a complete write-off - that's why it's an issue.

It's fine if these guys want to do their own scale, good on 'em. I just took issue with you saying "scale isn't an issue".

Oh my. I have to say, I'm in love with the Riff. Really nice take on the space-orcish archetype without being too cartoonish. I have no use for the game, but I might drop a small pledge for a squad or two, because the resin production quality looks decent, and they say they won't use PVC. I sympathise with people who are skeptical about nonstandard scales, though as primarily a painter and modeler these days, it's not a concern for me. Each diorama only has to be in scale with itself, after all.

Yep, personally I'm in precisely for the large, detailed figures - they are both easier to paint and a more impressive sight, particularly in squads. And if the base figures are large, the stompy mech suits will surely be even more so!

I am at least intrigued by the game system, although will be running the risk that it's less than great. Frankly, I did the same with Dreadball, Deadzone, Relic Knights, Kingdom Death...virtually no non-boardgame Kickstarters actually show you finished rules ahead of time anyway.

I can completely understand how a non-standard scale might put people off, as miniatures are expensive enough that you'd want to re-use them wherever possible, but for me it's the other way around - I have no need for even more generic 28mm guys in power armour!

Do you know what, I am getting more and more tempted to drop a few coins on this. I am intrigued by the minis.

Wonder if they'll allow after KS pledge boosts?

Scale doesn't really bother me that much as I'm a purist - I prefer to keep my miniatures look to match the universe they are fighting in. The scale itself doesn't look like it'd be incompatible with most 30mm scenery anyway...

This one's in a free-fall now, sadly.

Not sure how to stop the bleeding, other than via a cancellation and a relaunch in a month or two.

Seems puzzling. If I slog through the entire thread, I wonder if the reasons for this campaign failing will become apparent?

Maybe?

I'd like to know your thoughts!

I think it was down to uncertainty/ambiguity at the start, and then a bailout once HIPs was off the table, for all intents and purposes.

 Yonan wrote:


It's fine if these guys want to do their own scale, good on 'em. I just took issue with you saying "scale isn't an issue".

I guess scale is as much a non issue as it is an issue. I guess there is not right or wrong way to view it. I agree with one point that seems to come up, and that is compatibility over new. It seems like the general thought is, if you're going to " walk your own line" you need to make a complete product, good minis and good rules. If you're just trying to sell minis and the rules are simply an excuse, then it makes sense to create those minis with other more established games systems in mind........

I am getting really tired of people saying 'scale doesn't matter'.

You know who clearly think scale matters? This damn kickstarter. That's why they have done everything possible to not tell people what scale they were actually getting.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, makes a bunch of miniatures in a scaleof "7mm to 1ft", does a load of 3d prints, measures them, realises that they are all over 40mm and then thinks 'Let's call this a 35mm game' unless they absolutely think 'scale in an issue'.
Nobody avoids the question for days, nobody posts the worlds' smallest scale photo in an update only and leaves it there to slide down the many pages and nobody continues never to correct this unless 'they' think 'scale is an issue'.

3 weeks into a kickstarter, 1 week into a disastrous freefall, and they 'still' don't step forward and change their own misleading FAQ, they still don't correct the incorrect assuptionsof anyone mentioning it in the comments, they 'still' haven't posted one. single. shot. with a damn ruler in it.

People crying about 'toxic people' in the kickstarter comments. The only toxic people I see are people trying to throw mud at random forums for a kickstarters failings and a bunch of people running a kickstarter without telling their backers the bloody truth. It isn't hard. Here I'll do it for them.

"We are a 40mm game and have spent 3 weeks trying to pretend otherwise, we really hoped you wouldn't notice."

I couldnt give a flying monkey's tump how big the minis are, if I wanted them i'd buy them if they were a 63mm game. Good for you if you think 40 odd mm minis are the next sliced bread or you love them for painting or whatever. Not remotely relevant to the issue. The issue is if someone tells me I'm buying one thing and sends me another they get them back via a very uncomfortable method.

....oooh-kay. Backing away at quite a speed now. I don't think I want any part in something this controversial.

Their only comments lately seem to be about the world cup.

Seems they should really be concentrating more on saving their sinking ship by addressing outstanding concerns than discussing football.

This is getting beyond a farce and few backers understand why. Pretty close to pulling the plug and watching it sink.

 Alex C wrote:
Their only comments lately seem to be about the world cup.

Seems they should really be concentrating more on saving their sinking ship by addressing outstanding concerns than discussing football.

I noticed this as well, which I thought was strange......given the state of their project. it seems like even they have given up.....which really says it all.

Scale Games has to be thinking about pulling the plug, reorganizing and relaunching in a few months.

Under £82K, and no signs of stopping.

I really want this one to succeed and fund - but it is looking like they need to restart this.

Well, the fat lady sang and pulled the plug.

Zond wrote:
Well, the fat lady sang and pulled the plug.

Funding Canceled Funding for this project was canceled by the project creator 4 minutes ago.

Indeed.